The Law

[Flankerl]

I'll repeat this one for you so you get up to speed in the thread.

It's from your Orthodox Union, the experts. So it is about $$$$. I just need to know how much, which you will never find out, so I can take a tax deduction for a religious donation.

Bottled Water
OU Kosher Staff
All unflavored bottled water, seltzer and sparkling water is Kosher for Passover, even without any Kosher supervision.

My Orthodox Union? Kid where I am from there doesn't even exist a Hechsher on products that helps Jews.

Also you just contradicted yourself. If the water is kosher either way its of course perfectly fine to put a Hechsher on it. Its kosher after all.


So how does a Hechsher on products hurt you in any way? If I can eat products without a Hechsher 24/7 almost the entire year I am sure you can manage a Hechsher. Won't turn you into a Jew, big pinky promise.

 

[metis]

Here you go:
Babylonian Talmud: Tractate Shabbath
Shabbath 116a&b
Imma Shalom, R. Eliezer's wife, was R. Gamaliel's sister. Now, a certain philosopher30 lived in his vicinity,and he bore a reputation that he did not accept bribes.1 They wished to expose him,2 so she brought him a golden lamp, went before him, [and] said to him, 'I desire that a share be given me in my [deceased] father's estate.' 'Divide,' ordered he. Said he [R. Gamaliel] to him, 'It is decreed for us, Where there is a son, a daughter does not inherit.' [He replied], 'Since the day that you were exiled from your land the Law of Moses has been superseded3 and another book4 given, wherein it is written, 'A son and a daughter inherit equally.'5 The next day, he [R. Gamaliel] brought him a Lybian ***. Said he to them, 'Look6 at the end of the book, wherein it is written, I came not to destroy the Law of Moses nor7 to add to the Law of Moses,8 and it is written therein, A daughter does not inherit where there is a son. Said she to him, 'Let thy light shine forth like a lamp.'9 Said R. Gamaliel to him, 'An *** came and knocked the lamp over!'10

Is not Rabbi Gamaliel fulfilling the Law by properly interpreting it for the philosopher?

No, he is not. Again, you simply do not understand the basis of the Mosaiic Law, the vast majority of which deal with actions. It is totally illogical to say or imply that just having interpretations alone somehow miraculously "fulfills" the Law, and for some reason you just don;t seem to understand that.

Here's a listing of the Mosaiic Laws as found in Torah, so maybe you should study these first before posting the nonsense you have been spewing forth: http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm

 

[metis]

The true story is $$$$$. Because there is no need to certify water as kosher.

There is a reason which has been explained to you even if you don't agree with it, but then you come back with the lie above. Pathetic.

 

[metis]

You need to keep your dietary laws in the private domain and out of the public domain.

And why is that? If you don't want to buy kosher water, then let me suggest you not buy kosher water. Why can't I supposedly go to my neighborhood market and buy kosher? Are you going to attack the Amish next for raising Amish chicken that's marketed as such?

 

[rosends]

They're still paying for kosher. Symbol or no symbol. The Coke and Pepsi you drink at fast food restaurants are kosher-no symbol. They pay.

yes, they pay. They pay for location, they pay for marketing, they pay for music clearances for their ads. They pay for all sorts of things. And you can claim that someone who claims to be kosher must invariably pay for something (though you have no proof - the Coke and Pepsi have a symbol if you know where to look). But how much does it add into the price? The material I posted says "not a lot". How much does being in a metropolitan market add to the price? What about franchising fees? Maybe you should boycott all sorts of places and foods because they market their company products in ways that you don't endorse. Or would you rather just be angry at religion?

 

[metis]

BTW, "Nature's Crystal Spring Water" is not kosher.

 

[rosends]

BTW, "Nature's Crystal Spring Water" is not kosher.

A quick check of prices -- Crystal Spring, delivered to my office (5 gallons) is $8.49 per bottle. The website has no price for bottles picked up from a warehouse.
Diamond Rock pickup (I can't get a price for delivery without actually starting a service) is $4.00 per bottle.

So if I choose the product without supervision, I have to pay $4.49 MORE per 5 gallons. Is that entire differential the delivery cost? Is it possible that the unsupervised product costs MORE?

Blast you, religious people!

 

[metis]

A quick check of prices -- Crystal Spring, delivered to my office (5 gallons) is $8.49 per bottle. The website has no price for bottles picked up from a warehouse.
Diamond Rock pickup (I can't get a price for delivery without actually starting a service) is $4.00 per bottle.

So if I choose the product without supervision, I have to pay $4.49 MORE per 5 gallons. Is that entire differential the delivery cost? Is it possible that the unsupervised product costs MORE?

Blast you, religious people!

LOL!

 

[roger1440]

A quick check of prices -- Crystal Spring, delivered to my office (5 gallons) is $8.49 per bottle. The website has no price for bottles picked up from a warehouse.
Diamond Rock pickup (I can't get a price for delivery without actually starting a service) is $4.00 per bottle.

So if I choose the product without supervision, I have to pay $4.49 MORE per 5 gallons. Is that entire differential the delivery cost? Is it possible that the unsupervised product costs MORE?

Blast you, religious people!

It would be impossible to make a accurate assessment of something with such a small sampling. I'm only mentioning this cause I like statistics.

 

[Tumah]

Isn't it weird that someone made a thread dedicated to discussing Kosher labeling on products and put it in the Scriptural Debate section?

 

[rosends]

It would be impossible to make a accurate assessment of something with such a small sampling. I'm only mentioning this cause I like statistics.

I'm talking only on the micro level. One product, when compared to another product, costs more even though the expectation would be that it would cost less. If a generalization can be shown to be inaccurate in a specific case, it undercuts the utility of that generalization.

 

[roger1440]

The original question was, should Christians keep the Law. I know what the Law is but what the heck is a Christian? There are thousands upon thousands of flavors of Christianity worldwide. Each denomination believes they have the right beliefs. They are the “true Christians” or orthodox. It’s always the other folks that have the wrong beliefs. They are the heretics. Long story short, the question cannot be answered because the terms cannot be defined.

 

[Mountain_Climber]

Seconded. I've been a Jew all rosends life as well, and I've never heard of it either.
But I did do some research. Apparently unknown to Jews, a Mr. David Bivin has discovered that such an idiom existed in the ancient Jewish world. Isn't that amazing? And once he discovered that idiom, he was able to reinterpret (or should I say re-uphold) a number of passages in the Talmud! So although you can Google this idiom to your heart's content (a non-Jewish idiom), you will never find any mention of it on any Jewish site discussing Jewish/Talmudic passages.. But you will find tens of Christian sites speaking about this newly discovered ancient Jewish idiom.

Yes, I agree.

I have never heard of such an idiom, either. However, simple logic tells us no one can obey what they do not understand. And simple logic tells us that attempting to apply what we do not understand will naturally cause corruption. I, quite frankly, do not see any point to have to say more than that about it's interpretation.

But the point behind the admonition telling us we must fulfill the righteous requirements of the Law is well shown in many ways. For example, Solomon stated,
"Will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have built?" (1 Kings 8:27)

Can it really then be said that the physical temple which the Law commanded be built is God's temple wherein he dwells? Absolutely not. That physical temple was a picture of something greater not made by human hands.

Where is it most important that God be able to dwell? In a building somewhere in a particular geographical location on this earth?

Where does mankind need God to be able to dwell in relation to them before God's presence with mankind can work good through all men?

Realizing this then illustrates the huge difference between the mere symbolic figures and acts required of that Old Law and what that Law's righteous fulfillment are.

If we do not see the big picture behind the laws symbolic figures and required acts in connection with those figures, then we seek to apply that Law in a rather mundane way which rather than bringing about the righteous eventuality it points to, hides that reality from the people and keeps them in bondage to mundane rituals which in and of themselves are powerless to help anyone to cloth themselves with God's righteousness.

 

[Tumah]

Yes, I agree.

I have never heard of such an idiom, either. However, simple logic tells us no one can obey what they do not understand. And simple logic tells us that attempting to apply what we do not understand will naturally cause corruption. I, quite frankly, do not see any point to have to say more than that about it's interpretation.

That is very simple logic. But your simple logic doesn't equate to providing new translations to words. So as simple as your logic is, "fulfilling the law" cannot mean "interpreting the law". It is a prerequisite, sure. But its just not what the verse says.

But the point behind the admonition telling us we must fulfill the righteous requirements of the Law is well shown in many ways. For example, Solomon stated,
"Will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have built?" (1 Kings 8:27)

Can it really then be said that the physical temple which the Law commanded be built is God's temple wherein he dwells? Absolutely not. That physical temple was a picture of something greater not made by human hands.

This is your interpretation of the verse. A nice one. But not born out by the context of the entire Scriptures.

Ex. 25:8 "and they shall make for me a sanctuary; and I will dwell among them"
1 Kings 8:28 "...behold, the heavens and the heaven of the heavens do not contain you. Even this house, which I have built."

Ex. 40:34 "And the cloud covered the Tent of Meeting; and the honor of G-d, filled the Tabernacle."
Isaiah 6:3 "And this one called to this one and said, 'holy, holy, holy is G-d of Hosts. the whole earth is filled [with] His honor."

So which one's the lie?

Obviously, there are degrees of Divine presence and revelation. And while there is a general Presence that is beyond space. That is, G-d's presence fills the whole earth and can't even be contained by the heavens. G-d can also cause His presence to appear greater in a certain space. And that is why G-d says that He would dwell among Israel and in Solomon's Temple. Solomon was speaking rhetorically in awe. "G-d, Your presence is so unfathomable. You are so beyond everything that a house of wood and stone could not possible contain You... and yet that is exactly what You will cause to happen."

Where is it most important that God be able to dwell? In a building somewhere in a particular geographical location on this earth?

Both are important. In order to fulfill all of G-d's stated Will, there needs to be a physical house in a particular geographical location on earth for Him to dwell in. Without that, we can only fulfill, maybe 2/3's of His Will. That's a lot missing. On the other hand, if we don't bring G-d into our hearts, then our actions are not fulfilling G-d's Will, they are just done by rote. Its only when G-d is in our hearts and in our Temple, that G-d's Will can be completely fulfilled.

Where does mankind need God to be able to dwell in relation to them before God's presence with mankind can work good through all men?

I don't speak Christianese. Can you translate that into English? I have never heard of the phrase "G-d working good through all men" and I have no idea what its supposed to mean. Is it a prophecy that's meant to happen?

Realizing this then illustrates the huge difference between the mere symbolic figures and acts required of that Old Law and what that Law's righteous fulfillment are.

Symbolic figures? Can you point to me the verse in Scriptures that says, "All these Laws which I have commanded to you, are mere symbolic figures and acts."
This perspective kind of begs the question, if all these figures and acts were not the point, but only symbols for the point, why didn't G-d just...get to the point and not waste everyone's time?
Lastly, how do you find the brazenness to claim that when G-d spoke directly to Moses and said, "do not eat the fruit of a tree for the first three years," that G-d didn't actually mean that one shouldn't eat from a fruit tree for the first three years. That is perfectly fine to eat from such a tree as long as one obeys the symbol of...

If we do not see the big picture behind the laws symbolic figures and required acts in connection with those figures, then we seek to apply that Law in a rather mundane way which rather than bringing about the righteous eventuality it points to, hides that reality from the people and keeps them in bondage to mundane rituals which in and of themselves are powerless to help anyone to cloth themselves with God's righteousness.

", saith Moutain Climber.
I couldn't find the verse in Scriptures talking about obeying man-made symbolism based on the commandments. All I could find was this:
"...do all My commandments that I have commanded you today...(Deut. 28:1)"

 

[Wharton]

So let's solve the problem of kosher products.

As you can see from what I posted, some of you went to websites that condemn the kosher certification process which brings about hatred of Jews which is unnecessary

We've seen in posts that the cost is miniscule. You should have no problem picking up the miniscule tab to obey your dietary needs. After all, the money would be going to your own rabbis.

The solution, because the cost is miniscule and because Jews already pay $$$ to go to services and sometimes pay extra $$$ to maintain the eruv, is for Orthodox Jews to pay $$$ to offer kosher certification for free to all companies. That would be fair, would it not?

You would be admired for your actions and fulfill scripture " I will also make You a light of the nations So that My salvation may reach to the end of the earth."

Somebody wake me up

 

[Wharton]

The original question was, should Christians keep the Law. I know what the Law is but what the heck is a Christian? There are thousands upon thousands of flavors of Christianity worldwide. Each denomination believes they have the right beliefs. They are the “true Christians” or orthodox. It’s always the other folks that have the wrong beliefs. They are the heretics. Long story short, the question cannot be answered because the terms cannot be defined.

You're a Gentile. You don't have to keep the Law.

 

[Wharton]

And why is that? If you don't want to buy kosher water, then let me suggest you not buy kosher water. Why can't I supposedly go to my neighborhood market and buy kosher? Are you going to attack the Amish next for raising Amish chicken that's marketed as such?

Do you go shopping? There is no non-Kosher bottled spring water to be found at ANY supermarkets in my area. I had a good laugh the other day. I wandered into a local convenience store that sells their own brand of ice tea and low and behold, there was a new kosher symbol on the bottle. I looked it up. It's a rabbi operating out of his house in PA. I guess he undercut the fee that the OU was charging and bounced them out. So don't tell me corporations don't like to reduce unnecessary sales expenses.

I have no problem with you going to the market to buy kosher, as long as you pay for it. If the price goes up because companies have to offer items in two varieties, one kosher and one not, you get to pay the extra cost for the kosher product. That's just part of Orthodoxy, is it not? I mean, people pay a premium to live in the eruv and are proud of it. It should be the same for kosher.

 

[Mountain_Climber]

That is very simple logic. But your simple logic doesn't equate to providing new translations to words. So as simple as your logic is, "fulfilling the law" cannot mean "interpreting the law". It is a prerequisite, sure. But its just not what the verse says.

You like to argue but do so out of much imagination. That is all the further I will entertain your baseless accusation concerning providing new translation to words..

This is your interpretation of the verse. A nice one. But not born out by the context of the entire Scriptures.

Ex. 25:8 "and they shall make for me a sanctuary; and I will dwell among them"

1 Kings 8:28 "...behold, the heavens and the heaven of the heavens do not contain you. Even this house, which I have built."

Ex. 40:34 "And the cloud covered the Tent of Meeting; and the honor of G-d, filled the Tabernacle."

Isaiah 6:3 "And this one called to this one and said, 'holy, holy, holy is G-d of Hosts. the whole earth is filled [with] His honor."

So which one's the lie?

Obviously, there are degrees of Divine presence and revelation. And while there is a general Presence that is beyond space. That is, G-d's presence fills the whole earth and can't even be contained by the heavens. G-d can also cause His presence to appear greater in a certain space. And that is why G-d says that He would dwell among Israel and in Solomon's Temple. Solomon was speaking rhetorically in awe. "G-d, Your presence is so unfathomable. You are so beyond everything that a house of wood and stone could not possible contain You... and yet that is exactly what You will cause to happen."

The way you reword that statement by Solomon is really the very thing you accused me of doing. Of course that can also be a thought contained in Solomon's words but the language itself does not allow you to limit it to that. Again, simple logic says that we want God to be able to be IN all things we do or build if indeed our heart is right with God.

God did animate those things for the purpose of holding a stubborn people's attention. Otherwise they would have thought it all a joke. They would have asked in themselves what made those things in any way special and to be preferred over similar things the religions of the nations built and used in their worship of their false gods.

As it was, many among them yet had trouble keeping their attention focused. And why is that Tumah? Where does anything have to exist for us before it can be certain we won't forget it? The very things you have mentioned prove that place is not in handmade temples nor in or on physical utensils used in the service of handmade temples.

It might feel good to be a teacher of the law and to get attention from those who think you intelligent when you speak of the things contained in that Law, but the high feeling one gets from that is not proof of those material things having value inherent to the material item itself. And improper teaching as regards those physical items only further separates men from God, making them dependent on the physical devoid of any spiritual depth of understanding, and deceiving them that they are pleasing God. That is a religion of addiction rather than a religion which truly enriches the spirit in man to conform to God's righteous spirit.

Both are important. In order to fulfill all of G-d's stated Will, there needs to be a physical house in a particular geographical location on earth for Him to dwell in. Without that, we can only fulfill, maybe 2/3's of His Will. That's a lot missing. On the other hand, if we don't bring G-d into our hearts, then our actions are not fulfilling G-d's Will, they are just done by rote. Its only when G-d is in our hearts and in our Temple, that G-d's Will can be completely fulfilled.

Who needs a written code of conduct, Tumah? One who by the spirit of godly righteous wisdom inculcated into his heart and bound by love is able to look not at the printed page but at a conscience trained by God and kniow the course of what is right in God's eyes? Or, the one who lacks in that in his heart?

If a man be obedient in relation to all the physical works of that Old Law and honors all the physical parapanalia concerned with it, do you really think that those repititious physical acts and material items under that Old Law will build the sorely needed righteousness of God into a man's heart and bind it there by love? How many centuries did that Israel of Old demonstrate for us that it works that way? What did those of Old Israel prove concerning that for us? Clearly they proved it does not work that way. And that is why, "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah.." Jeremiah 31:31

Why do you, Tumah spend all of your time trying to keep that Old Covenant the main focus? Is it that you do not want anyone to know that New Covenant? It matters not whether that is your goal and your desire or not. That is what you are doing. Your current frame of mind and heart no doubt would have you respond that when God brings that New Covenant to you then you will gladly conform to it, even as you claim concerning the Messiah.

It is not me that you will harm by failing to wake up to the fact that the new covenant spoken of through Jeremiah has already been brought to the house of Israel and the house of Judah. And the Messiah brought it but you would rather continue the rejection of them both just as your forefathers.

I don't speak Christianese. Can you translate that into English? I have never heard of the phrase "G-d working good through all men" and I have no idea what its supposed to mean. Is it a prophecy that's meant to happen?

I believe you. Is it your idea that God intends to maintain a combative world that walks contrary to his righteousness? You do know don't you that all of God's works praise him? You do understand don't you that this earth and everything on it was meant to praise him? Is this world doing praising God or is it mocking God by claiming to believe in him but then not walking in his righteous character qualities, disallowing him to be a Father whose manner his children follow?

Symbolic figures? Can you point to me the verse in Scriptures that says, "All these Laws which I have commanded to you, are mere symbolic figures and acts."

What are signs? Many of the things God told them to do and to make were signs and/or served to reinforce those signs. If you want to you can search that out and see it. If your heart has no desire to do so you won't. So I will leave that to your heart. It is up to you to transfer that circumcision of your flesh inward to your heart. No one can do it for you. God himself can only share with you and call you and coax you to respond in that way. But ultimately your heart will not see and respond to anything you refuse to let it see and respond to.

This perspective kind of begs the question, if all these figures and acts were not the point, but only symbols for the point, why didn't G-d just...get to the point and not waste everyone's time?

I will let you be the judge of how righteous that comment is and how God feels about one who would actually think that way in their mind and heart. For I do not believe you thought that through. I hessitate to believe you really feel that way.

Lastly, how do you find the brazenness to claim that when G-d spoke directly to Moses and said, "do not eat the fruit of a tree for the first three years," that G-d didn't actually mean that one shouldn't eat from a fruit tree for the first three years. That is perfectly fine to eat from such a tree as long as one obeys the symbol of...

", saith Moutain Climber.

I couldn't find the verse in Scriptures talking about obeying man-made symbolism based on the commandments. All I could find was this:

"...do all My commandments that I have commanded you today...(Deut. 28:1)"

Now you are really off in a tangent of imagination.

Job, let your heart stand still and restful that it may understand instead of being led out of the way by emotion. Job 37:14

 

[metis]

There is no non-Kosher bottled spring water to be found at ANY supermarkets in my area.

That's your problem, so what's that got to do with those of us that are Jewish? If you really have the strength of your convictions, order on-line-- problem solved.

 

[metis]

Do you go shopping?

Yes, but in this case it was my wife who bought the non-kosher water that I was referring to several posts ago. As for myself, I do go out of the way to buy kosher, even if it costs more. But that's my choice, and yet I don't whine if there's only non-kosher products that are available.