You don't get it. Why should I pay more to order online and be inconvenienced? It's not my religious requirement. You should get to pay more and be inconvenienced to keep kosher. Not me.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
The Law
- Thread starter Mattithyah
- Start date
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Frankly, I couldn't care less what your concern is here, and it seems you're acting much more like a child than an adult. Life doesn't always give us what we want. Some times we may actually have to work a bit harder for what we want. Didn't your Mommy and Daddy teach you that?
Yep, life is good for you because other people pick-up your tab. And that attitude of yours is exactly why all those websites exist that I pulled derogatory info from about Jews and they breed hatred for your people. Be proud of yourself as you are no solution to end the existence of those websites.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Ah, you now have exposed your real motive here, namely that of being anti-Semitic. It has nothing to do with your desire for non-kosher water as it's just a way for you to stick your thumb in Jewish eyes.
People who know me here know I would never make such a charge unless it was obvious, but now you have exposed yourself for what you truly are and why you've had post after post about buying water, of all things. Frankly, I thought that was your motive all along, so thank you so much for confirming that.
Moving on...
And there's the typical Jewish response when you can offer no solution to a problem. Pull the anti-Semite card. Why can't you pay for kosher on your own? As I said, be proud of yourself. I'm not anti-Semitic. I'm speaking as a consumer that has no choice when I go to the store. I used water as an example but I could have easily used K-cup pods as they are all kosher too.
JesusBeliever
Active Member
Hi there,
May I ask what the purpose of the sacrifices in the Law were for? Were they not to transfer the sins of the people to the innocent victims? This is the way in which the NT claims Jesus fulfilled the Law:
"Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls." 1Pe 2:24-25
(Edit to post) I posted this without first reading what has transpired on this thread the last few days. And it would seem that a breakout of major conflict has occurred between jews and christians to which I desire no part. As I see it stirring up both anti-jewish and anti-christian sentiments and being of no benefit to either side. Is it not possible for us to have a debate without making slanderous accusations against each other. Remember that both sides are called to love their neighbour, to the jew this includes strangers and to the christian this includes enemies, so none of us really have any excuse for treating each other disrespectfully. For whether jew or christian, we all believe we will face the judgment seat of God, don't we?
Last edited:
rosends
Well-Known Member
Sacrifices were mostly not about sins at all. Most were about thanking God, or giving up some of what we have to God to point out our relationship with him. Why would anyone transfer sins to an innocent victim? If I offer a goat, or a dove or a handful of flour as a sin sacrifice, am I saying that the flour has committed a sin? No -- just that I have to give something up as part of the repayment for committing a sin.
rosends
Well-Known Member
You don't get it. Most of the time, food that is prepared in accordance with kosher laws and has supervision does cost more and we pay it. Clearly (as evidenced by the products I priced out) the cost of water with and without supervision has price differences which are not attributable to the supervision. You can't show otherwise. So we all pay the cost that the company sets in order to stay competitive. If you don't like that, buy online (where the price might be higher, lower or the same, because the supervision seems not to affect price), buy a fluoride filter, or move to an area where you aren't confronted with bottled water that has a kosher symbol on it. Maybe you can start your own water company. You have the same options that a kosher consumer in a non-Jewish market has -- find another product, move, or make the thing yourself. Your constant complaining about price is not substantiated by the numbers I found, and it isn't like you have no options. You just don't like the options so you keep whining. Really, you need to grow up and learn to deal with life as it is.
Mountain_Climber
Active Member
You are quite correct.
Those sacrifices were about reinforcing the knowledge of sin. Romans 3:20 That awareness of sin was for the purpose of discourage the continuation of sin but in so far as the act of our offering those sacrifices even appeasing God, the Psalmist declared that he had come to understand, "Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required." Psalms 40:6 Why? The prophet Samuel revealed why to the arrant king Saul:
1 Samuel 15:22 "And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams."
The false teaching of an inherited sin nature which is dominant among Christianity in effect causes the same damage to men as does a wrong understanding of the purpose of those sacrifices. Either act as a means for men to excuse themselves for sin. The failure to hear and understand God is not isolated to one or the other of Christianity or Judaism. No, but it is a problem among all men, regardless of their choice of religion. Man in general is trying to reduce God to be like them rather than hearing, understanding and cooperating so as to climb back up the mountain they fell from so that they might return to being complete in God's image (God's inner character composed of righteous attributes all in perfect balance).
Hebrews 10:1 "For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect."
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
Tumah
Veteran Member
I will be a bit lengthy, since this is a topic that comes up often with Christians, so it can be used for later reference as well.
Here is a list of sacrifices. Perhaps we can find their purpose when we see what they are.
Burnt Offerings (Oleh) ('eaten' by the altar completely)
The Perpetual Offering, a public offering (that is, one animal for the entire congregation) offered twice daily without fail, morning and evening.
Seeing Offering, a personal offering, brought when one went to the Temple on the Holidays.
Donation Offerings, a person offering that a person can make whenever he likes.
Additional Offering, a public offering brought once on the Sabbath, the New Months and Holidays.
Peace Offerings (shlamim) (shared by the altar, the priest and the individual)
Donation Offering, a personal offering that a person can make whenever he likes
Celebratory Offering, personal offerings that are brought on the holidays
Happiness Offering, brought in tandem with the Celebratory offering if the single Celebratory Offering is not enough
First-Fruits Offering, when someone would bring their First-Fruits to the Temple, they would need to bring this sacrifice as well.
Thanks Offering, a donation offering that one brings as thanks to G-d for salvation from trouble
Nazirite Offering, an offering brought by the Nazirite at the end of his term
Public Peace Offering an offering brought no the Festival of Weeks
Sin Offerings (chatas) (eaten by the priest)
Personal Sin Offering, brought by the individual for unintentionally transgressing sins that are punishable by death or being cut off (as opposed to fines, lashes or nothing).
Purity Sin Offerings, brought for abnormal flows of men and women, child-birth, and leprosy.
Nazirite Sin Offering, brought at the conclusion of the Nazirite term.
Public Sin Offering, brought along with the Additional Offering.
Guilt Offerings (asham) (eaten by the priest)
Stealing Guilt, brought when one falsely swears that one did not steal along with returning the item and an additional fifth of the price.
Trespassing Sacred Guilt, brought when one unintentionally uses items that were dedicated to the Temple.
Betrothed Maidservant Guilt, brought for having relations with a maidservant that was married to a slave.
Nazirite Guilt, brought by a Nazirite for transgressing his prohibitions during his term as a Nazirite.
Leprosy Guilt, brought by a leper on the eighth day of being cured of his leprosy.
First-born Offerings (b'chor) (eaten by the priest)
A sacrifice brought from first-born sheep, goats and cows.
Tithe Offerings (ma'aser) (eaten by the individual)
A tenth of all sheep, goats and cows that were born during the year.
Passover Offering (pesach) (eaten by the group)
Brought by private groups on the 14th of Nissan or Iyar to be eaten on the 15 at night. Eaten with unleavened bread and bitter herbs.
Present Offering (minchah) (eaten by the priest, unless brought by a priest, then 'eaten' by the altar)
Brought either as a separate donation, or in tandem with Burnt or Peace Offerings (along with a requisite measure of wine).
So here are all the sacrifices. You'll notice that of the 8 categories of sacrifices, only 2 are related to sins. Even from the 9 sacrifices within those two categories, 3 of them (Nazirite and Purity Sins Offerings, and Leprosy Guilt Offering) are not connected to any specific or known sin, they are simply requirements at the end of the events they are brought for. Of the remaining 6, only three of them are brought for intentional sins and only specific sins at that (Stealing, Betrothed Maidservant and Nazirite). The rest are for unintentional sins.
So back to your original question. What is the purpose of all these sacrifices?
Well, we can't say that the purpose of the sacrificial system was to expunge sins, because only a minority of the sacrifices were actually for sin. And even then it does virtually nothing for intentional sins (that is, even if one repents). One would think Divine Wisdom would have been able to formulate a more effective means for doing so than this, had that been what its for.. And in any case we see that repentance and prayer already has that job (Num. 14:20, 2 Chr. 33:18-19, Psa. 51, Daniel 9:3-20, etc.).
Looking at the list though, one can see there are a number of reasons for sacrifices, such as thanksgiving, atonement and celebration. Putting them together, I would venture that perhaps sacrifice is a form of prayer with the physical body: one gives of his physical property (that acts as an extension of the body, since the body isn't replaceable), the same as one gives prayer from the soul with one's words.
Innocent, is not a word that is used in relation to animals in Scriptures. So I'm not sure I would make such a claim. The principle also makes no sense: how can I transfer a stain on my shirt to your shirt.
There are verses commanding that an animal that kills someone needs to be stoned. But its not clear from the verses that this is because the animal committed a sin or if its just because its a dangerous animal that needs to be put down. Actually, if it happens a number of times, then the owner is killed too, which seems to suggest that the sin is on the owner for not reigning in the animal.
We do see that animals are considered property though. So maybe the true answer is something closer to paying a fee or fine (for that exclusive list of things one can bring sacrifices for) with one's assets.
The "stranger in your midst" refers to a resident alien. That's when all the Jews live in Israel and a non-Jew commits not to perform idolatry, he may take up residence there and is called a "stranger". Its not a blanket term for anyone not Jewish.
But either way, I don't disagree with your point.
Tumah
Veteran Member
Its very telling, when the only verses you can bring to support your theory, are in your books.
Bringing a feast offering along with the commandment to be rejoice on the feast, does not in any way seem to indicate a time of remembrance of sin.
And then you have a verse like Deut 27:7 "and you shall slaughter peace-offerings and you shall eat there; and you shall rejoice before the L-rd your G-d". I mean, I don't naturally associate sin with rejoicing, so maybe its just me.
But if you think G-d intended all the other sacrifices to be a remembrance of sin, then you have a glaring omission in the Books those sacrifices were discussed.
Samuel was not saying that G-d doesn't want all sacrifices. He was saying that G-d prefers that we don't sin, then that we bring those sacrifices that are associated with sinning. Clearly though G-d does want sacrifices or He would not have commanded them.
Flankerl
Well-Known Member
You poor thing. There is no kosher certified food in my area. The next shop is 80km away. The then next shop in the same country is 240km away.
You really got my sympathy that you have to drink kosher water. Really.
Flankerl
Well-Known Member
You got us. Its almost next month so my share of the Hechsher money from the ZOG will arrive.
JesusBeliever
Active Member
Yes, thanks for sharing them. I think it benefits Christians to understand them better.
Thanks for sharing these scriptures. I read them all and saw that Psalms 51 is one of my favourites. It's what I understand the New Covenant promises to be. God creating in us a clean heart (Matthew 5:8), purging us from dead works (Matthew 15:18-20) to serve the living God. (Hebrews 9:13-14)
Yes, our scriptures agree with this too (1 John 3:17, James 2:14-26).
I just mean innocent as in they didn't commit the said sin.
It is explained to christians in the NT through the story of Abraham, when God promised that He would make him a father of many nations (Genesis 17:4, Genesis 15:4-5) It says that he believed God and he was imputed righteous (Genesis 15:6, Romans 4:16-25). Christian faith is regarded in a similar way, believing God can do in us what we are incapable of doing in ourselves, like giving us a clean heart.
Yes, I see your point too and recall that the Apostle Peter also confirms this, despite his personal view on this being changed (Acts 10:28).
Last edited:
Ken Brown
Well-Known Member
Shalom Rosends, I agree that the Torah does not allow for punishing the innocent in place of the guilty as "christians" erroneously believe (Exo 23:7, Num 35:33, Deut 25:1, & Deut 27:25), but how would your explain Lev 4:15, Lev 16:21, & Num 8:12 in light of the laying on of hands upon the head of the sacrificial victim, and confessing sins? Is this a "transfer" of sins, or can you explain it some other way? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.
rosends
Well-Known Member
The leaning on an animal while confessing doesn't transfer anything to the animal any more than swearing on a bible transfers anything to the bible. (you simply needed to cite Lev 1:4). When, in Num 8:10, people lean on the Levites, no one is transferring sins to the Levites. The animal does not receive the sins (animals can't sin AFAIK) and if I use a flour offering, it does not get my sins transferred onto it.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
Did I miss it?....let me ask....
as I was wandering through the old testament....I noted a ritual of blood.
It had to do with the laying on of hands (upon the sinner)
followed by the laying of hands upon the sacrifice....
as if in one gesture.
The transgression transfers unto the animal ( a goat in this case)
and the animal is led into the wilderness (by someone appropriate)
and staked to the ground.....left there to die.
The transgression dies with the sacrifice.
hence the common current day notation?......scapegoat.
as I was wandering through the old testament....I noted a ritual of blood.
It had to do with the laying on of hands (upon the sinner)
followed by the laying of hands upon the sacrifice....
as if in one gesture.
The transgression transfers unto the animal ( a goat in this case)
and the animal is led into the wilderness (by someone appropriate)
and staked to the ground.....left there to die.
The transgression dies with the sacrifice.
hence the common current day notation?......scapegoat.
JesusBeliever
Active Member
Hi there,
Isaiah 53:1-12 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? 2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. 3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. 4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. 8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. 9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. 10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. 11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
Yes, but there is no denying that there were sacrifices for sin.
Yes, thanks for sharing this. I can see how this makes logical sense, considering they were spoken of in Exodus as a nation of shepherds. It would hurt your wealth if you sinned a lot which is still applicable even today. However, there is a well known prophecy in the book of Isaiah that speaks of a man who would "bear the sins of many" and many other such things it says. I'm sure the version you read from is different to ours but I invite you to compare notes, for I'm sure you are well aware that we Christians believe this speaks of Jesus Christ:
Isaiah 53:1-12 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? 2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. 3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. 4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. 8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. 9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. 10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. 11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
Mountain_Climber
Active Member
It is very telling? How very humble and useful of you to point that out.
You have JayJayDee thinking.
That is what she always tells me.While you go on gloating in your superiority of understanding you might consider that even an offering of appreciation works to remind us that often our presentations we make in life are half-hearted and lacking of purity (which manner of presentation, too, constitutes sin). The requirement that such offerings meet up with a certain high standard of purity covers that.
But what your heart is willing to learn from such things and what you will allow yourself to see or not see is entirely up to you and is none of my business.
Mountain_Climber
Active Member
The man is speaking from his own personal viewpoint, his perspective.
If any of the sacrifices and offerings had nothing to do with sin then those particular sacrifices and offerings would have no requirement lain upon them to meet up with a certain standard of holiness.