The Law

[JesusBeliever]

[Zecharyah was written in 520 B.C.E.]
Zechariah 14:18-19 says that the heathen will be forced to observe and travel to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. This prophesy has never been fulfilled, nor has there ever been circumstances that even remotely resembled it.

Why would Yahweh force all people to observe a Feast that is no longer valid, and has no purpose? Why would Yahweh force people to be "legalistic?"

Also, I must point out that the prophecy is that Yahweh will force the heathen to keep the Feast. Does this mean that the Christians are keeping it already voluntarily? Or, does it mean that the Feast of Tabernacles will be a part of Hell?

[FYI I observe the Feast of Tabernacles Deut. 12:5-6]

Hi there Mattithyah,
I decided to reread this thread from the beginning and it occurred to me how off topic we've gotten from your OP. So I decided to learn more about the Feast Of Tabernacles and am currently watching this series on youtube (see below) about this feast that is full of information from both a jewish and christian perspective.

May I also just confess, from my personal perspective as a christian, that the more I study Scriptures both OT & NT the more it seems obvious that many of the Scriptures are as veiled to most christians as christians believe they are to jews. And I believe this is largely due to our ignorance of each others Scriptures. However, there is one thing I've noticed as is shown in the above video series, and that is how jewish christians seem better able to understand the NT than gentile christians because to some extent they've lived the OT and it is part of their culture. As a jewish forum member was able to point out for me on another thread, even some of the terminology of the NT is recognisable to jews while totally flying over the heads of most christians, including myself! It reminds me of what the Apostle Paul said in Romans 3:1-2.

 

[rosends]

.I noted a ritual of blood.
It had to do with the laying on of hands (upon the sinner)
followed by the laying of hands upon the sacrifice....
as if in one gesture.

The transgression transfers unto the animal ( a goat in this case)
and the animal is led into the wilderness (by someone appropriate)
and staked to the ground.....left there to die.

The transgression dies with the sacrifice.

If you are referring to Lev 16, then I am not sure what you mean:

Aaron makes a confession (though that isn't in the text) and then sacrifices a bull (verse 6)

He then takes 2 goats and draws lots. One is then sacrificed as a sin offering. The other is designated to wander in the wilderness. Verse 16:21 details that Aaron leans on the he-goat, confesses the sins of the people and then a man takes the goat out to the wilderness. The goat is not killed according to the text so the goat can't be a sacrifice and the text never says that the sins are transferred onto the goat. Does your text read otherwise?

 

[rosends]

Hi there,
Yes, but there is no denying that there were sacrifices for sin.
Yes, thanks for sharing this. I can see how this makes logical sense, considering they were spoken of in Exodus as a nation of shepherds. It would hurt your wealth if you sinned a lot which is still applicable even today. However, there is a well known prophecy in the book of Isaiah that speaks of a man who would "bear the sins of many" and many other such things it says. I'm sure the version you read from is different to ours but I invite you to compare notes, for I'm sure you are well aware that we Christians believe this speaks of Jesus Christ:

Isaiah 53:1-12 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? 2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. 3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. 4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. 8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. 9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. 10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. 11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Yes, I am familiar with these claims. This entire issue has been dealt with elsewhere. Here is one treatment of it, just scroll down about a third of the way and you can read it all there. http://drazin.com/?12._The_Suffering_Servant

 

[Mountain_Climber]

Hi there Mattithyah,
I decided to reread this thread from the beginning and it occurred to me how off topic we've gotten from your OP. So I decided to learn more about the Feast Of Tabernacles and am currently watching this series on youtube (see below) about this feast that is full of information from both a jewish and christian perspective.

May I also just confess, from my personal perspective as a christian, that the more I study Scriptures both OT & NT the more it seems obvious that many of the Scriptures are as veiled to most christians as christians believe they are to jews. And I believe this is largely due to our ignorance of each others Scriptures. However, there is one thing I've noticed as is shown in the above video series, and that is how jewish christians seem better able to understand the NT than gentile christians because to some extent they've lived the OT and it is part of their culture. As a jewish forum member was able to point out for me on another thread, even some of the terminology of the NT is recognisable to jews while totally flying over the heads of most christians, including myself! It reminds me of what the Apostle Paul said in Romans 3:1-2.

To understand what Paul meant there at Romans 3:1-2 one must first take into consideration the setting. Paul is living and speaking in a day and time when most nations had their false gods and many oracles to speak for those false gods. So what Paul wants you to understand when you read his words there, is that he is saying the advantage the Jews have is that they had the One True God's oracles teaching them all along as opposed to those Gentile nations who had oracles of their many false gods.

I have seen many among us point to that comment by Paul reasoning that somehow makes us a bit special in God's eyes even today, but the correctly understood message Paul was giving has nothing to do with Israel's modern setting and cannot be transferred over as if it applies to today. When some do attempt to make that transfer it is a pride issue.

Added: We are all, Jew and Gentile, pretty much in the same boat today and peaceful resolution of conflict depends more upon the humility to admit that than upon anything else.

Because modern Jews are known to speak Hebrew many believe that gives the modern Jew the edge. But what those many fail to take into consideration is that modern Hebrew is not the language the original Scriptures were pinned in. There is almost as vast a difference between the thought of modern Hebrew and the languages of the ancient texts as there is with any other language. The Jew has to work just about as hard to understand what was written in the ancient texts as anyone else. And just as in any language one can corrupt the thought of the ancient text by superimposing modern thought upon it, the same is true when imposing modern Hebrew thought upon it.

 

[Ken Brown]

The leaning on an animal while confessing doesn't transfer anything to the animal any more than swearing on a bible transfers anything to the bible. (you simply needed to cite Lev 1:4). When, in Num 8:10, people lean on the Levites, no one is transferring sins to the Levites. The animal does not receive the sins (animals can't sin AFAIK) and if I use a flour offering, it does not get my sins transferred onto it.

Shalom Rosends, I couldn't agree with you more. Sins, and their penalty (death ) cannot be transferred, no more than transferring righteousness (Ezek 14:14&20). So if sins are not transferred, for what purpose is the laying/leaning the hands upon the head of the offering, and confessing sins? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

 

[Tumah]

Because modern Jews are known to speak Hebrew many believe that gives the modern Jew the edge. But what those many fail to take into consideration is that modern Hebrew is not the language the original Scriptures were pinned in. There is almost as vast a difference between the thought of modern Hebrew and the languages of the ancient texts as there is with any other language. The Jew has to work just about as hard to understand what was written in the ancient texts as anyone else. And just as in any language one can corrupt the thought of the ancient text by superimposing modern thought upon it, the same is true when imposing modern Hebrew thought upon it.

That is - to put it in the correct framework - a load of garbage.
Fluency in Modern Hebrew makes it incredibly easy to pick up a Bible a start reading. And even if that were not true (it is), there are plenty of school where only Scriptural and Rabbinical (Mishnaic and Medieval) Hebrew is taught. In fact, I myself did not learn Modern Hebrew until many years after I had learned Scriptural and Rabbinical Hebrew. And within my community, where this is common, there are plenty of jokes about the visitor to Israel trying to speak to a Israelis using Biblical/Rabbinical Hebrew and Amaraic.
So your assertion is demonstrably false.

 

[Tumah]

It is very telling? How very humble and useful of you to point that out.

I don't see how humility or arrogance enters the discussion here.

You have JayJayDee thinking. That is what she always tells me.

I have no idea what you're talking about.

While you go on gloating in your superiority of understanding you might consider that even an offering of appreciation works to remind us that often our presentations we make in life are half-hearted and lacking of purity (which manner of presentation, too, constitutes sin). The requirement that such offerings meet up with a certain high standard of purity covers that.

Please quote the Scriptural verse that the Thanksgiving Sacrifice is meant to evoke such feelings in a person.
Please also quote the Scriptural verse that equates high standards of purity by animal sacrifice is related in any way to sin.

But what your heart is willing to learn from such things and what you will allow yourself to see or not see is entirely up to you and is none of my business.

 

[Mountain_Climber]

That is - to put it in the correct framework - a load of garbage.
Fluency in Modern Hebrew makes it incredibly easy to pick up a Bible a start reading. And even if that were not true (it is), there are plenty of school where only Scriptural and Rabbinical (Mishnaic and Medieval) Hebrew is taught. In fact, I myself did not learn Modern Hebrew until many years after I had learned Scriptural and Rabbinical Hebrew. And within my community, where this is common, there are plenty of jokes about the visitor to Israel trying to speak to a Israelis using Biblical/Rabbinical Hebrew and Amaraic.
So your assertion is demonstrably false.

Yes there are modern trained teachers who represent it to others that they are qualified to teach, just as even the Christians have available to them.

And yes indeed there are the Mishnaic opinions of the rabbis and so forth. In fact there are opinions on the opinions of the rabbis .

You speak some truth but also some exaggeration.

 

[Mountain_Climber]

I don't see how humility or arrogance enters the discussion here.


I have no idea what you're talking about.


Please quote the Scriptural verse that the Thanksgiving Sacrifice is meant to evoke such feelings in a person.
Please also quote the Scriptural verse that equates high standards of purity by animal sacrifice is related in any way to sin.

You are a shining example.

Be at peace.

 

[rosends]

Shalom Rosends, I couldn't agree with you more. Sins, and their penalty (death ) cannot be transferred, no more than transferring righteousness (Ezek 14:14&20). So if sins are not transferred, for what purpose is the laying/leaning the hands upon the head of the offering, and confessing sins? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

This is one explanation:
"Ramban: Since a person’s actions are carried out through thought, speech, and action, Hashem commanded that when man sins and brings a korban, he should lean his hands on it to parallel the action, confess with his mouth to parallel the speech, and burn in fire the innards and kidneys (the vehicles of the thoughts and desires), and the legs (paralleling man’s hands and feet), which perform all actions."
The talmud actually discusses (zevachim 39b) that even without leaning, the atonement ensues. Therefore, the leaning cannot be a transfer or else, without transfer, atonement would be impossible.

 

[Tumah]

Yes there are modern trained teachers who represent it to others that they are qualified to teach, just as even the Christians have available to them.

I'll take that as a recanting of your previous post then.

And yes indeed there are the Mishnaic opinions of the rabbis and so forth. In fact there are opinions on the opinions of the rabbis .

This has no bearing on anything. What are you talking about?

You speak some truth but also some exaggeration.

Which you'll not identify, apparently.

 

[Tumah]

You are a shining example.

Be at peace.

I'll take that to mean, you have no Scriptural support.
Thanks.

 

[Mountain_Climber]

I'll take that to mean, you have no Scriptural support.
Thanks.

You are welcome.

It's just that I have no desire to argue with you, Tumah. I believe all I have posted was stated clearly and truthfully enough that no further comment is needed. You know what you know and it is not my intention to dispute you. You have your reasons for seeing it as you do and that is your right.

 

[Mountain_Climber]

This has no bearing on anything. What are you talking about?

Opinions are just that, opinions. If the transition from present day Hebrew to the textual languages was as smooth as you say then we would have no need of so many opinions.

 

[Tumah]

Opinions are just that, opinions. If the transition from present day Hebrew to the textual languages was as smooth as you say then we would have no need of so many opinions.

We do not have so many opinions...

 

[roger1440]

You are quite correct.

Those sacrifices were about reinforcing the knowledge of sin. Romans 3:20 That awareness of sin was for the purpose of discourage the continuation of sin but in so far as the act of our offering those sacrifices even appeasing God, the Psalmist declared that he had come to understand, "Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required." Psalms 40:6 Why? The prophet Samuel revealed why to the arrant king Saul:

1 Samuel 15:22 "And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams."

The false teaching of an inherited sin nature which is dominant among Christianity in effect causes the same damage to men as does a wrong understanding of the purpose of those sacrifices. Either act as a means for men to excuse themselves for sin. The failure to hear and understand God is not isolated to one or the other of Christianity or Judaism. No, but it is a problem among all men, regardless of their choice of religion. Man in general is trying to reduce God to be like them rather than hearing, understanding and cooperating so as to climb back up the mountain they fell from so that they might return to being complete in God's image (God's inner character composed of righteous attributes all in perfect balance).

Hebrews 10:1 "For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect."
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

Whoever wrote Hebrews was very sly. Taking advantage of those poor ignorant Jews like that, shame on him. It’s only Jews who do not know there scripture would buy into that. The 10th chapter of Hebrews does not mean the same as 1 Samuel 15:22. The author of Hebrews had twisted Samuel’s verse to mean something it is not.

 

[Mountain_Climber]

Whoever wrote Hebrews was very sly. Taking advantage of those poor ignorant Jews like that, shame on him. It’s only Jews who do not know there scripture would buy into that. The 10th chapter of Hebrews does not mean the same as 1 Samuel 15:22. The author of Hebrews had twisted Samuel’s verse to mean something it is not.

Actually that is a very good point you make. Those, quote, "poor ignorant Jews", as you call them, were in a far better position to know what was meant in the ancient writings than we are today and yet they believed the writer of the book of Hebrews. They lived before the temple was destroyed, and most of them likely personally knew both John the Baptist and Jesus.

 

[JesusBeliever]

Because modern Jews are known to speak Hebrew many believe that gives the modern Jew the edge. But what those many fail to take into consideration is that modern Hebrew is not the language the original Scriptures were pinned in. There is almost as vast a difference between the thought of modern Hebrew and the languages of the ancient texts as there is with any other language. The Jew has to work just about as hard to understand what was written in the ancient texts as anyone else. And just as in any language one can corrupt the thought of the ancient text by superimposing modern thought upon it, the same is true when imposing modern Hebrew thought upon it.

Hi Mountain Climber,

Yes, I understand what you're saying as it's also true in my own culture and native language. From the very little I've learned about ancient Hebrew it seems similar to the ancient language of my own culture, where one word can be made up of a collection of words, giving it an almost descriptive or interpretive quality, like a story within a single word. Where as our modern translations or dictionaries might say it just means this one word and no mention is given of any connection with other words.

 

[Ken Brown]

This is one explanation:
"Ramban: Since a person’s actions are carried out through thought, speech, and action, Hashem commanded that when man sins and brings a korban, he should lean his hands on it to parallel the action, confess with his mouth to parallel the speech, and burn in fire the innards and kidneys (the vehicles of the thoughts and desires), and the legs (paralleling man’s hands and feet), which perform all actions."
The talmud actually discusses (zevachim 39b) that even without leaning, the atonement ensues. Therefore, the leaning cannot be a transfer or else, without transfer, atonement would be impossible.

Shalom Rosends, Ramban's explanation is fairly close to how I would view the leaning/laying on of hands, as it shows there is an "identification" between the korban and the sinner so that when the korban dies, so also the sin within the sinner should die, thus rendering the atonement. Thank you for sharing, and Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

 

[Wharton]

You poor thing. There is no kosher certified food in my area. The next shop is 80km away. The then next shop in the same country is 240km away.

You really got my sympathy that you have to drink kosher water. Really.

Hire a rabbi and pay for it. It's your law not mine.