The Law

[roger1440]

Work on that some more.

You are speaking by your own opinion but not seeing the full picture.

You say: "The problem wasn’t what he offered; the problem was where he got it from. Same thing with Mother’s Day, one must give from the heart and not simply go through the motions."

The underlined part is what I have been saying. The first part while true was not what Samuel's point was. Samuel's point was addressed to Saul's belief that he was giving his best when he was not. That Saul said, “But I did obey the Lord”, supports that conclusion.

You will never really know if you agree with anything I say until you give what i say a fair chance, which you are not doing because you are too busy looking to find fault. But all you are accomplishing is a fudging of perspective. And you deserve to do better for yourself.

Samuel’s theme is very similar to the theme in the taking of Jericho found in Joshua chapter 7. God knows what is in our heart, we cannot hide that. Achan in the first chapter of Joshua had the same attitude as Saul. “Hey, who is gonna know?” God knows. He knows what we do and what is in our heart. It’s the same story being retold.

 

[Mountain_Climber]

Samuel’s theme is very similar to the theme in the taking of Jericho found in Joshua chapter 7. God knows what is in our heart, we cannot hide that. Achan in the first chapter of Joshua had the same attitude as Saul. “Hey, who is gonna know?” God knows. He knows what we do and what is in our heart. It’s the same story being retold.

Saul's wrongful act was not done with the idea that God would not know. It was done with an attitude that God couldn't have really meant all of what he had told Saul to do, as if Saul was more righteous than God.

 

[JesusBeliever]

No. He takes two goats, one of which will be for a singular sin offering. The lots confirm that only one is a sin offering (verse 9). Since either could end up being the sin offering, the verse says he takes two to fill that one spot. A Chatat, sin offering is a sacrifice on the altar. The goat for azazel is not offered as a sacrifice on the altar so it is not a chatat. The explanation in verses 20-22 never calls it a sin offering

Why then does it call it an atonement?

"But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness." Lev 16:10

May I ask what atonement means? May I also just say that I do accept your point that the scapegoat isn't sacrificed but it does make atonement, as do other things in the law that aren't sacrificed.

 

[rosends]

Why then does it call it an atonement?

"But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness." Lev 16:10

May I ask what atonement means? May I also just say that I do accept your point that the scapegoat isn't sacrificed but it does make atonement, as do other things in the law that aren't sacrificed.

It was the confession on the goat which provides the atonement as confession is a necessary component of repentance leading to atonement. The goat, itself, does not carry any sins. It is a symbolic object. The act of confessing is a highly important one, and the symbolic sending away of the goat adds to the ritual. But the goat isn't carrying any sins with him. The blood sprinkling of blood does not mean that the blood has sins in it. The incense service does not mean that the incense has sins in it, and yet both of these rituals carry the same textual call of "atoning." Atonement often means that it effects a change in the individual allowing that person to improve and be forgiven for past acts. The Hebrew is related to a redemption payment -- you do something instead of what you really deserve and earn forgiveness.

 

[Ron Hackel]

Did you ever consider that Lucifer is called the devil for a reason? It means deceiver. If you go to Psalm 78 you'll see what sin means. It means not trusting in a loving Father. The Jews as shown in Psalm 78 would not believe in God as he was. He finally relented after 90 days and gave them the god they wanted. Paul in Hebrews said that Moses was trembling with fear when God came down on Mount Sinai. Yet what did he tell the Jews?

Exodus 20 : 20 "Do not be afraid. God has come to test you"

Although the scene made him shake in his boots, he knew God was not like this and told the Jews as much by saying that.

Psalm 78 says the Jews sin was not trusting in a loving God. They refused to believe, so Jesus came to do away with sin. I can't help the entire world has the wrong definition.

HEBREWS 7 : 18 "the former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless (for the law made nothing perfect), and A BETTER HOPE IS INTRODUCED, BY WHICH WE DRAW NEAR TO GOD."

The way Satan has bamboozled everyone is the word perfect. This word is used elsewhere as mature. The sacrifices never made anyone's faith in a loving God mature.

HEBREWS 10 : 8 "First he said, 'Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them' (although the LAW required them to be made)."

HEBREWS 10 : 1 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming-not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship."

Why didn't it make their faith mature in a loving God? Because every time they did something wrong they were back to square one thinking God didn't love them and had to make a new sacrifice..

GALATIANS 3 : 19 "What then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come."

A Seed was to come through the woman (God's people) that would crush Satan's head (show his lies to be what they were). Jesus was to come at a certain time in history and the Jews had to be kept together as a people to fulfill the promise. Jesus kept saying, "My time has not yet come. The prophecy in Daniel told the very year he was to be anointed.

So Jesus is the end of the law. We no longer have to think we have a legalistic tyrant as a god. Grace is the knowledge of an all loving God. We are no longer under law, but grace.

 

[Ken Brown]

Did you ever consider that Lucifer is called the devil for a reason? It means deceiver. If you go to Psalm 78 you'll see what sin means. It means not trusting in a loving Father. The Jews as shown in Psalm 78 would not believe in God as he was. He finally relented after 90 days and gave them the god they wanted. Paul in Hebrews said that Moses was trembling with fear when God came down on Mount Sinai. Yet what did he tell the Jews?

Exodus 20 : 20 "Do not be afraid. God has come to test you"

Although the scene made him shake in his boots, he knew God was not like this and told the Jews as much by saying that.

Psalm 78 says the Jews sin was not trusting in a loving God. They refused to believe, so Jesus came to do away with sin. I can't help the entire world has the wrong definition.

HEBREWS 7 : 18 "the former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless (for the law made nothing perfect), and A BETTER HOPE IS INTRODUCED, BY WHICH WE DRAW NEAR TO GOD."

The way Satan has bamboozled everyone is the word perfect. This word is used elsewhere as mature. The sacrifices never made anyone's faith in a loving God mature.

HEBREWS 10 : 8 "First he said, 'Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them' (although the LAW required them to be made)."

HEBREWS 10 : 1 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming-not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship."

Why didn't it make their faith mature in a loving God? Because every time they did something wrong they were back to square one thinking God didn't love them and had to make a new sacrifice..

GALATIANS 3 : 19 "What then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come."

A Seed was to come through the woman (God's people) that would crush Satan's head (show his lies to be what they were). Jesus was to come at a certain time in history and the Jews had to be kept together as a people to fulfill the promise. Jesus kept saying, "My time has not yet come. The prophecy in Daniel told the very year he was to be anointed.

So Jesus is the end of the law. We no longer have to think we have a legalistic tyrant as a god. Grace is the knowledge of an all loving God. We are no longer under law, but grace.

Shalom Ron, you seem to be very knowledgeable in what you believe. Do you believe you can break one of the "least" of the commandments from the Torah, and that you can teach others that they can also? And a related question, how does your righteousness exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

 

[JesusBeliever]

It was the confession on the goat which provides the atonement as confession is a necessary component of repentance leading to atonement. The goat, itself, does not carry any sins. It is a symbolic object. The act of confessing is a highly important one, and the symbolic sending away of the goat adds to the ritual. But the goat isn't carrying any sins with him. The blood sprinkling of blood does not mean that the blood has sins in it. The incense service does not mean that the incense has sins in it, and yet both of these rituals carry the same textual call of "atoning." Atonement often means that it effects a change in the individual allowing that person to improve and be forgiven for past acts. The Hebrew is related to a redemption payment -- you do something instead of what you really deserve and earn forgiveness.

Yes, I have no problem with this depiction, except the idea of earning forgiveness which may just be a dispute of words on my part. John the Baptist put it this way, "bring forth fruits worthy of repentance".

 

[Thief]

It was the confession on the goat which provides the atonement as confession is a necessary component of repentance leading to atonement. The goat, itself, does not carry any sins. It is a symbolic object. The act of confessing is a highly important one, and the symbolic sending away of the goat adds to the ritual. But the goat isn't carrying any sins with him. The blood sprinkling of blood does not mean that the blood has sins in it. The incense service does not mean that the incense has sins in it, and yet both of these rituals carry the same textual call of "atoning." Atonement often means that it effects a change in the individual allowing that person to improve and be forgiven for past acts. The Hebrew is related to a redemption payment -- you do something instead of what you really deserve and earn forgiveness.

If this much is true....then no form of sacrifice has anything to do with sin.
If the transfer doesn't happen....then the sacrifice does nothing.

 

[JesusBeliever]

If this much is true....then no form of sacrifice has anything to do with sin.
If the transfer doesn't happen....then the sacrifice does nothing.

Yes, that's a point. One can't ignore Isaiah 53 which speaks of this principle of a man bearing others sins. And we know that the flock of God are people (Ezekiel 34:31). The OT itself teaches us that the Law needs to be interpreted and understood in relation to all other Scriptures.

 

[JesusBeliever]

What is the point, that the sacrifice is meaningless?

Sorry I don't understand your question. Are you saying that the sacrifice is meaningless?

 

[Tumah]

If this much is true....then no form of sacrifice has anything to do with sin.
If the transfer doesn't happen....then the sacrifice does nothing.

If the transfer was possible, it wouldn't only apply to such a small number of cases.
Rather, among the sins which have the punishment of death, in the event that it was done unintentionally (and therefore the sin isn't as great), G-d allows us to substitute our lives, with animal lives.

Yes, that's a point. One can't ignore Isaiah 53 which speaks of this principle of a man bearing others sins. And we know that the flock of God are people (Ezekiel 34:31). The OT itself teaches us that the Law needs to be interpreted and understood in relation to all other Scriptures.

Actually, Ezekiel seems to be speaking about Israel, not people in general.
Either way, the concept of bearing sin is the 10th attribute of Divine Mercy found in Ex. 34:7. Our sins don't transfer to G-d, so that is obviously not the correct interpretation. What it refers to is suffering that comes from another's sin. So if Reuben were to hit Simon, Reuben would be sinning and Simon would be bearing the burden of that sin. Likewise, we sin and G-d metaphorically "suffers" as we transgress His Commandments right in His face and He watches us disregard His Commandments to our own detriment.
Similarly, Israel, in Isaiah 53, bears the sins of the nation (v. 12) who cause others to suffer (ie. that is the sin: causing pain to another). Because the nations performs this sin on Israel (v. 4-5).

 

[JesusBeliever]

Hi Tumah,

Sorry it's so long, I was kind of studying along the way. I don't expect you to answer all of it.

G-d allows us to substitute our lives, with animal lives.

Yes, this is what we understand Jesus death on the Cross to mean. The just for the unjust. (1 Pe 3:18)

Actually, Ezekiel seems to be speaking about Israel, not people in general.

Yes that's right. However Christians are taught that they have been grafted in, or as Jesus put it, "sheep that are not of this fold".

Either way, the concept of bearing sin is the 10th attribute of Divine Mercy found in Ex. 34:7.

Yes, I see what you're saying. However I'm reminded of what the Lord said in Jeremiah 31:29. Note that this is linked with the New Covenant which is mentioned a few verses later in Jeremiah 31:31. An interesting verse I've never noticed before is Jeremiah 31:27 which says:

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast." Jer 31:27

I can't help but think that this is what the NT is speaking about when it refers to the spirit and the flesh. Ezekiel also prophesies of the same thing:

"And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:" Eze 11:19

"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them." Eze 36:26-27

Verse 27 seems to be an important addition which our Scriptures also support saying:

"The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together." Rom 8:16-17

Can't help but notice that this also speaks of suffering with him. As for His spirit "causing you" to walk, our Scriptures say:

"This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would." Gal 5:16-17

Our sins don't transfer to G-d, so that is obviously not the correct interpretation. What it refers to is suffering that comes from another's sin. So if Reuben were to hit Simon, Reuben would be sinning and Simon would be bearing the burden of that sin. Likewise, we sin and G-d metaphorically "suffers" as we transgress His Commandments right in His face and He watches us disregard His Commandments to our own detriment.

Yes, I was thinking about this yesterday, how grieved He must be to have endured every generation of cruelty and suffering done in His face from the beginning of Creation. He must be so thankful to be able to see the end from the beginning, assured that one day all suffering will end.

Similarly, Israel, in Isaiah 53, bears the sins of the nation (v. 12) who cause others to suffer (ie. that is the sin: causing pain to another). Because the nations performs this sin on Israel (v. 4-5).

Are you saying that Israel as a nation is this suffering servant of Isaiah 53. If you are, I can appreciate that based on Jewish history. And although I believe this prophesies of Jesus Christ I still think their is some truth to this identification of Israel with this suffering servant of Isaiah 53. However I don't believe this is exclusive to them, for I see that many have suffered for the sins of others, from all walks of life.

The Apostle Paul said something curious that I've always pondered about, feeling like he was revealing a truth to us that one day will be revealed to be true and it is this (although I appreciate that you might disagree):

"But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, To reveal (G601 apokaluptō) his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:" Gal 1:15-16

G601
ἀποκαλύπτω
apokaluptō
Thayer Definition:
1) to uncover, lay open what has been veiled or covered up
1a) disclose, make bare
2) to make known, make manifest, disclose what before was unknown
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G575 and G2572

 

[rosends]

If this much is true....then no form of sacrifice has anything to do with sin.
If the transfer doesn't happen....then the sacrifice does nothing.

No, sacrifice shows a willingness on behalf of the offerer to change -- to give of himself in recognition that he owes something to the divine. Even, to substitute something else as an admission that the individual deserves a particular penalty. But, you are right -- not only were most sacrifices not related to sin and most sins not atoned for through sacrifice, and not only was atonement effected through other, required actions, but now that we have other means to achieve atonement, it is clear that sacrifice was not a matter of transfer, or else atonement would be impossible today.

 

[JesusBeliever]

...it is clear that sacrifice was not a matter of transfer, or else atonement would be impossible today.

I'm sure you can appreciate that this is a Jewish perspective.

"Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me (Matthew 1:20): In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." Heb 10:5-10

 

[rosends]

I'm sure you can appreciate that this is a Jewish perspective.

"Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me (Matthew 1:20): In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." Heb 10:5-10

Yes -- Jews and their Jewish books tend to generate that.

 

[Ron Hackel]

This is to answer Ken brown's question on righteousness. again Satan has us thinking the wrong meaning of the word.

ROMANS 3 : 9-12 "What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are under sin. asit is written: 'There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have become worthless"

Paul was the Jews were under sin just like the Gentiles. Neither believed in a god of love. Both sacrificed to appease their gods.

HOSEA 6 : 6 "for I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and ACKNOWLEDGMENT of God

The Jews were chosen to reveal God to the world (Jerimiah 13:11 is a good reference). He wanted them to show mercy to be in his image. What loving Father wants his children to think they have to bring him something to be loved by him?

Back to Romans, Paul said no one was righteous because they didn't understand God. Righteous should not be taken as our moral conduct to understand Scripture.

2 PETER 2 : 7 "and if he rescued Lot a righteous man"

Lot was going to throw his two virgin daughters out of his house to be raped by a sex crazed mob. He later fathered his own grandchildren by the same two.

Abraham was called righteous, he fathered children by 4 different women. Moral life or did he trust in God?

The Pharisees believed in the Mount Sinai god who was a legalistic tyrant. God had led them for 90 days as a loving Father, but they would not believe in him (Psalm 78:32 said they kept sinning). God as a god of love finally relented and gave them the God they wanted.

 

[Mountain_Climber]

This is to answer Ken brown's question on righteousness. again Satan has us thinking the wrong meaning of the word.

ROMANS 3 : 9-12 "What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are under sin. asit is written: 'There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have become worthless"

Paul was the Jews were under sin just like the Gentiles. Neither believed in a god of love. Both sacrificed to appease their gods.

HOSEA 6 : 6 "for I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and ACKNOWLEDGMENT of God

The Jews were chosen to reveal God to the world (Jerimiah 13:11 is a good reference). He wanted them to show mercy to be in his image. What loving Father wants his children to think they have to bring him something to be loved by him?

Back to Romans, Paul said no one was righteous because they didn't understand God. Righteous should not be taken as our moral conduct to understand Scripture.

2 PETER 2 : 7 "and if he rescued Lot a righteous man"

Lot was going to throw his two virgin daughters out of his house to be raped by a sex crazed mob. He later fathered his own grandchildren by the same two.

Abraham was called righteous, he fathered children by 4 different women. Moral life or did he trust in God?

The Pharisees believed in the Mount Sinai god who was a legalistic tyrant. God had led them for 90 days as a loving Father, but they would not believe in him (Psalm 78:32 said they kept sinning). God as a god of love finally relented and gave them the God they wanted.

You make some very good points and are coming very close.

What you are leaving out is that there are levels of righteousness. We must grow to the righteousness of God but we won't do that growing if we are being crushed by guilt.

The righteousness which is imputed by faith is what Abraham and Lot had. Romans 4:20-22

That imputed righteousness by faith is in fact what we all receive in the beginning of our faith which renders to us a cleansed record whereby we can stand before God having a good conscience. As I said, We must grow to the righteousness of God but we won't do that growing if we are being crushed by guilt.

Now ponder the following:2 Corinthians 5:20-21 "Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."

This is where the many need to get this right in their understanding. We are not that righteousness of God merely because we have obtained the imputed righteousness which exists only because of our past sins having been forgiven. There is yet much work for God to do in us with our cooperation before we even come close to being that righteousness of God. That righteousness is definitely righteous is as righteousness does freely from the righteousness of God ruling in one's heart.

Just as one has righteousness imputed of God's merciful grace to lift the burden of guilt from off them that they may begin to mature in God's righteousness, one can allow their self to develop a wicked heart if they allow themselves to return to loving the world and it's ways. And then even as God imputed righteousness God will dispute that righteousness.

 

[Ken Brown]

This is to answer Ken brown's question on righteousness. again Satan has us thinking the wrong meaning of the word.

ROMANS 3 : 9-12 "What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are under sin. asit is written: 'There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have become worthless"

Paul was the Jews were under sin just like the Gentiles. Neither believed in a god of love. Both sacrificed to appease their gods.

HOSEA 6 : 6 "for I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and ACKNOWLEDGMENT of God

The Jews were chosen to reveal God to the world (Jerimiah 13:11 is a good reference). He wanted them to show mercy to be in his image. What loving Father wants his children to think they have to bring him something to be loved by him?

Back to Romans, Paul said no one was righteous because they didn't understand God. Righteous should not be taken as our moral conduct to understand Scripture.

2 PETER 2 : 7 "and if he rescued Lot a righteous man"

Lot was going to throw his two virgin daughters out of his house to be raped by a sex crazed mob. He later fathered his own grandchildren by the same two.

Abraham was called righteous, he fathered children by 4 different women. Moral life or did he trust in God?

The Pharisees believed in the Mount Sinai god who was a legalistic tyrant. God had led them for 90 days as a loving Father, but they would not believe in him (Psalm 78:32 said they kept sinning). God as a god of love finally relented and gave them the God they wanted.

Shabbat Shalom Ron, thank you for responding. What were your thoughts about the other questions concerning the "least" of the commandments (about not doing them and teaching others likewise-Matt 5:17-20)? And doesn't your Paul state that ONLY the DOERS of the Torah are righteous, not the HEARERS (Rm 2:13)? And are you not told that IF you want LIFE, you must DO the commandments (Matt 19:17), the same thing that Moshe taught (Deu 6:2, 24-25)? Even, are you not warned here:

1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

How do you DO righteousness Ron? Explain to me how you faithfully DO the commandments, or is your faith compelling you to be a "worker" of iniquity (Psa 6:8, Matt 7:23, Lk 13:27, & 2 Tim 2:19)? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

 

[Ken Brown]

You make some very good points and are coming very close.

What you are leaving out is that there are levels of righteousness. We must grow to the righteousness of God but we won't do that growing if we are being crushed by guilt.

The righteousness which is imputed by faith is what Abraham and Lot had. Romans 4:20-22

That imputed righteousness by faith is in fact what we all receive in the beginning of our faith which renders to us a cleansed record whereby we can stand before God having a good conscience. As I said, We must grow to the righteousness of God but we won't do that growing if we are being crushed by guilt.

Now ponder the following:2 Corinthians 5:20-21 "Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."

This is where the many need to get this right in their understanding. We are not that righteousness of God merely because we have obtained the imputed righteousness which exists only because of our past sins having been forgiven. There is yet much work for God to do in us with our cooperation before we even come close to being that righteousness of God. That righteousness is definitely righteous is as righteousness does freely from the righteousness of God ruling in one's heart.

Just as one has righteousness imputed of God's merciful grace to lift the burden of guilt from off them that they may begin to mature in God's righteousness, one can allow their self to develop a wicked heart if they allow themselves to return to loving the world and it's ways. And then even as God imputed righteousness God will dispute that righteousness.

Shabbat Shalom Mountain Climber, I see you think righteousness can be "imputed," from one person to another. Obviously, believing G-d can be "counted" or "imputed" as righteousness, but that is not counting or imputing someone else who is righteous in believing or doing, it is YOUR own belief, and YOUR own doing that counts you as being righteous. Substituting righteousness from one to another is not allowed, even if it is a family member:

Eze 14:13 - 14

13 “Son of man, when a land sins against Me to commit a trespass, and I shall stretch out My hand against it, and cut off its supply of bread and send scarcity of food on it, and cut off man and beast from it,

14 even though these three men, Noaḥ, Dani’ĕl, and Iyoḇ, were in it, they would deliver only themselves by their righteousness,” declares HaShem.

Imputing or declaring righteousness to the wicked, and condemning those who are righteous, both actions are abominable to G-d, are they not?

Prov 17:15 He who imputes righteousness to the wicked, And he who condemns the righteous, Both of them are an abomination to HaShem.

And just as I told Ron, don't be deceived, he who DOES righteousness, is righteous, and it has nothing to do with someone else keeping the commandments for you (in your stead), so that you do not. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

 

[JesusBeliever]

Shabbat Shalom Ron, thank you for responding. What were your thoughts about the other questions concerning the "least" of the commandments (about not doing them and teaching others likewise-Matt 5:17-20)? And doesn't your Paul state that ONLY the DOERS of the Torah are righteous, not the HEARERS (Rm 2:13)? And are you not told that IF you want LIFE, you must DO the commandments (Matt 19:17), the same thing that Moshe taught (Deu 6:2, 24-25)? Even, are you not warned here:

1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Hi there,

It is important to note that Jesus also said:

"For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven." Mat 5:20

How do you DO righteousness Ron? Explain to me how you faithfully DO the commandments, or is your faith compelling you to be a "worker" of iniquity (Psa 6:8, Matt 7:23, Lk 13:27, & 2 Tim 2:19)? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

According to Christ, it isn't enough to love your neighbour, but you are also commanded to:

But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. Matthew 5:44-48

People assume that Christians think they can sin just because they say they don't have to keep the Law of Moses but this isn't the case. Christians are expected to exceed the Law of Moses. For example, it is not enough to fulfil the law that says, "Thou shalt not murder!" For the Apostle John tells us:

"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." 1Jn 3:15

Jesus also confirms this when he says:

"For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:" Mat 15:19

Consider it from God's perspective who knows the end from the beginning and it makes sense. It also helps us to understand why God was so grieved prior to the flood. People didn't have to carry out their evil thoughts for God to see that this was inevitable:

"And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart." Gen 6:5-6