The Law

[Ken Brown]

Hi there,

It is important to note that Jesus also said:

"For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven." Mat 5:20
According to Christ, it isn't enough to love your neighbour, but you are also commanded to:

But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. Matthew 5:44-48

People assume that Christians think they can sin just because they say they don't have to keep the Law of Moses but this isn't the case. Christians are expected to exceed the Law of Moses. For example, it is not enough to fulfil the law that says, "Thou shalt not murder!" For the Apostle John tells us:

"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." 1Jn 3:15

Jesus also confirms this when he says:

"For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:" Mat 15:19

Consider it from God's perspective who knows the end from the beginning and it makes sense. It also helps us to understand why God was so grieved prior to the flood. People didn't have to carry out their evil thoughts for God to see that this was inevitable:

"And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart." Gen 6:5-6

Shabbat Shalom JB, so if I understand you correctly, your righteousness that "exceeds" the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, is that you have a better "work" of love than they have/had? Now, when you work to love better than the scribes and Pharisees, do you abolish the command "Do not murder?" Just exactly what do you do with the commandments, do you keep them, or do you abolish them by your work of love? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

 

[Mountain_Climber]

Shabbat Shalom Mountain Climber, I see you think righteousness can be "imputed," from one person to another. Obviously, believing G-d can be "counted" or "imputed" as righteousness, but that is not counting or imputing someone else who is righteous in believing or doing, it is YOUR own belief, and YOUR own doing that counts you as being righteous. Substituting righteousness from one to another is not allowed, even if it is a family member:

Eze 14:13 - 14

13 “Son of man, when a land sins against Me to commit a trespass, and I shall stretch out My hand against it, and cut off its supply of bread and send scarcity of food on it, and cut off man and beast from it,

14 even though these three men, Noaḥ, Dani’ĕl, and Iyoḇ, were in it, they would deliver only themselves by their righteousness,” declares HaShem.

Imputing or declaring righteousness to the wicked, and condemning those who are righteous, both actions are abominable to G-d, are they not?

Prov 17:15 He who imputes righteousness to the wicked, And he who condemns the righteous, Both of them are an abomination to HaShem.

And just as I told Ron, don't be deceived, he who DOES righteousness, is righteous, and it has nothing to do with someone else keeping the commandments for you (in your stead), so that you do not. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

No I do not think righteousness can be imputed from one person to another.

That is why I made it plain that that righteousness is mercifully attributed to our beginning of faith by our loving and merciful God.

That is called grace.

The wicked have not a humble and contrite heart. And nothing in the New Testament claims the wicked are in any way excused of their wickedness.

Isaiah 55:7 "Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon." (KJV)

Added: I am trying to understand why you would think I was saying what you describe. Is it that you did not capture that I meant it is our embracing to do as Christ did in obedience to God, always seeking to know and to do the will of the Father, which constitutes the beginning of faith?

That is what I understand Paul to be telling us faith is: Galatians 5:6 "For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love."

Faith is worthless if it only says, "I believe", but then does nothing which proves it:

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

 

[Ken Brown]

No I do not think righteousness can be imputed from one person to another.

That is why I made it plain that that righteousness is mercifully attributed to our beginning of faith by our loving and merciful God.

That is called grace.

The wicked have not a humble and contrite heart. And nothing in the New Testament claims the wicked are in any way excused of their wickedness.

Isaiah 55:7 "Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon." (KJV)

Added: I am trying to understand why you would think I was saying what you describe. Is it that you did not capture that I meant it is our embracing to do as Christ did in obedience to God, always seeking to know and to do the will of the Father, which constitutes the beginning of faith?

That is what I understand Paul to be telling us faith is: Galatians 5:6 "For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love."

Faith is worthless if it only says, "I believe", but then does nothing which proves it:

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Shabbat Shalom Mountain Climber, maybe I understand you better now. Abraham loved G-d, so he and his household PROVED their love by being circumcised:

Gen 17:23 And Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all that were born in his house, and all that were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham's house; and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the selfsame day, as G-d had said unto him.

So G-d was giving "grace" to Abraham to obey His command and circumcision or uncircumcision meant nothing, but rather obedience to keeping the command of G-d is what was important (1 Cor 7:19)? Is that what you were trying to say? So do you keep the command of G-d and circumcise all your male children on the 8th Day, and do you circumcise all the adult males in your household as did Abraham so that you can LOVE G-d and keep His commands (by grace)? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

 

[Mountain_Climber]

Shabbat Shalom Mountain Climber, maybe I understand you better now. Abraham loved G-d, so he and his household PROVED their love by being circumcised:

Gen 17:23 And Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all that were born in his house, and all that were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham's house; and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the selfsame day, as G-d had said unto him.

So G-d was giving "grace" to Abraham to obey His command and circumcision or uncircumcision meant nothing, but rather obedience to keeping the command of G-d is what was important (1 Cor 7:19)? Is that what you were trying to say? So do you keep the command of G-d and circumcise all your male children on the 8th Day, and do you circumcise all the adult males in your household as did Abraham so that you can LOVE G-d and keep His commands (by grace)? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

I could wish that were a verbatim literal thing to be kept, this whether or not I, quote, "keep the command of G-d and circumcise all your male children on the 8th Day, and do you circumcise all the adult males in your household as did Abraham." For that would mean I was yet a younger man. And being an older man comes with painful memories concerning now seeing what we should have done but did not know to do.

However, although all of my sons as all males who lived in my house were indeed long ago circumcised, I understand that the particular kind of circumcision is not what brought God's blessing upon Abraham, but it was purely Abraham's willing obedience as a result of faith. That obedience of faith was demonstrated by compliance with God's commandments to Abraham in relation to many things that God asked of him.

How can I explain that in a way others will be able to understand? It was not what was done but the fact that God had asked that it be done and, purely because God asked it, Abraham's heart was ready and willing to obey, even though Abraham did not understand why God was asking it. And that is how we should be.

But this is also where the Jews have failed since the bringing in of a better covenant established upon better promises. Hebrews 8:6

Most of the portion of Jews who yet even remain religious are so fixated on the commandment of the Old (from which they draw esteem having been that covenant's appointed guardians in this world), that they have robbed God of his right to command whatever he wills including something entirely new if they in anyway see his new commandment as nullifying the Old.

God was very sly. By commanding something new he demonstrated the unwillingness in our hearts to really let him have the lead over us.

Deuteronomy 10:16 "Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked."

Deuteronomy 30:5-6 "And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers. And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live."

 

[Tumah]

Hi Tumah,

Sorry it's so long, I was kind of studying along the way. I don't expect you to answer all of it.
Yes, this is what we understand Jesus death on the Cross to mean. The just for the unjust. (1 Pe 3:18)

Well, I'm sure you can understand though, how Jews might find it difficult to relate to an animal's life as just.

Yes that's right. However Christians are taught that they have been grafted in, or as Jesus put it, "sheep that are not of this fold".

Jews believe grafting of two different types is prohibited (Deut. 22:9)

Yes, I see what you're saying. However I'm reminded of what the Lord said in Jeremiah 31:29.

I'm not sure how this verse is related at all. I am saying that "bearing the sin of" means to suffer because of someone's sin. For example, if A hits B, A is sinning and B is suffering from it. B is bearing the sin of A. The verse in Jer. 31:29 is referring to the punishment that A will receive for hitting B. Its two separate things.

Note that this is linked with the New Covenant which is mentioned a few verses later in Jeremiah 31:31. An interesting verse I've never noticed before is Jeremiah 31:27 which says:

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast." Jer 31:27

I can't help but think that this is what the NT is speaking about when it refers to the spirit and the flesh. Ezekiel also prophesies of the same thing:

"And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:" Eze 11:19

"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them." Eze 36:26-27

Verse 27 seems to be an important addition which our Scriptures also support saying:

"The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together." Rom 8:16-17

Can't help but notice that this also speaks of suffering with him. As for His spirit "causing you" to walk, our Scriptures say:

"This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would." Gal 5:16-17
Yes, I was thinking about this yesterday, how grieved He must be to have endured every generation of cruelty and suffering done in His face from the beginning of Creation. He must be so thankful to be able to see the end from the beginning, assured that one day all suffering will end.

Not being familiar or interested in being familiar with the NT, I can't really comment on your thought. Perhaps a fellow Christian would be able to appreciate it more.

Are you saying that Israel as a nation is this suffering servant of Isaiah 53. If you are, I can appreciate that based on Jewish history. And although I believe this prophesies of Jesus Christ I still think their is some truth to this identification of Israel with this suffering servant of Isaiah 53. However I don't believe this is exclusive to them, for I see that many have suffered for the sins of others, from all walks of life.

Yes, that is what I'm saying. And although it is obviously true that others have suffered in this manner as well, this was not a prophecy for everyone, it was a prophecy for Israel. It is not excluding other events that occur in the world, its only prophesying that certain events will happen to Israel. Many people will suffer under other nations. This chapter merely says that Israel will be one of them.

The Apostle Paul said something curious that I've always pondered about, feeling like he was revealing a truth to us that one day will be revealed to be true and it is this (although I appreciate that you might disagree):

"But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, To reveal (G601 apokaluptō) his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:" Gal 1:15-16

G601
ἀποκαλύπτω
apokaluptō
Thayer Definition:
1) to uncover, lay open what has been veiled or covered up
1a) disclose, make bare
2) to make known, make manifest, disclose what before was unknown
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G575 and G2572

That is something I'm sure a fellow Christian would find interesting and meaningful.

 

[Ron Hackel]

The commandments were God's advice on how to have a happy life. If you don't do God's commandments you are not trusting his advice? If you want life do his commandments. Can't you do righteousness by trusting in God's advice? did you disagree with the definition of righteous that I gave in Romans 3;9-11? Does this study make sense?

Man was created to help God counter Lucifer's claims in heaven.

REV 12 : 7 "there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon." Michael in Hebrew is one who is like God. Angel is the Greek word angelos which means messenger. arch means chief. So, we have the chief messenger who is like God and his messengers fighting Lucifer's lies. God's messengers were the Prophets.

EPHESIANS 3 : 10 "His intent (God's plan) was that now through the church (Ekklias-called out ones) the manifold wisdom of God (how God runs the universe through love) should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms (the created beings Lucifer had brought doubt into about how God rules), according to his eternal purpose (was the plan from the start and will be into eternity) which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Jesus came to show the true character of God.

COLOSSIANS 1 : 19&20 "For he was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him (Jesus was the image of the Father), and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by MAKING PEACE through his blood, shed on the cross."

Jesus showed the depth of love the Father has for his creation. He would allow his creation to kill him if that was possible without resistance. Peter repeats what Paul said the disciples job was.

1 PETER 2 : 9 "But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light."

EXODUS 19 : 5&6 "Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. although the whole earth is mine, you will be for me a KINGDOM OF PRIESTS AND A HOLY NATION."

They were supposed to declare the praises of God to the world. They were supposed to show God's character to the world.

JEREMIAH 13 : 11 "For as a belt is bound around a man's waist, so I bound the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah to me, declares the lord, to be my people for my renown and praise and honor. But they have not listened."

The next verse relates to another study about this same subject.
VERSE 12 "Every wineskin should be filled with wine." I'll get back to this.

HOSEA 6 : 7 "Like Adam, they have broken the covenant-they were unfaithful to me there."

So, all mankind was created for this reason. Adam and Eve broke the covenant by not trusting God and running and hiding. They were supposed to reveal a God of love, but they ran and hid from him believing Satan's lie that God was going to kill them.

ROMANS 11 ; 16 "If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy"

If the Prophets (144,000) is holy, all mankind was made for that reason. Lets do the wine analogy that relates to calling the Prophets firstfruits in this verse.

REVELATION 14 : 8 "Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great, which made all the nations drink the maddening wine of her adulteries."

Pagan religions gave the wrong picture of God's character. They committed adultery by leaving the groom and made the nations mad by having them believe in gods that were not total love. Satan had all mankind believing in this type of God.

ISAIAH 5, has God telling us that he had a vineyard. The vineyard was the Jews. There was a winepress in the vineyard but there never was any good wine because
ISAIAH 5: 4 "When I looked for good grapes, why did it only yield bad?"

PSALM 80 : 7&8 "Restore us, O God (teach us your true character again) You brought a vine out of Egypt (grapevine)
PSALM 80 : 16 "Your vine is cut down, it is burned with fire; at your rebuke your people perish."
God said a seed would come from the woman (God's people) and crush Satan's head (destroy his lies). God said it would come through the Jews so how would he do it if they couldn't seem to do the job?
PSALM 80 : 17 "Let your hand rest on the man at your right hand, the son of man you have raised up for yourself."
JOHN 15 : 1 "I am the true vine"
Jesus would do the job the Jews were unable to do. He then told the apostles to do as I have done.
ROMANS 8 : 23 "Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit"
1 JOHN 5 : 6 "And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth."
Jesus said I only say what the Father tells me and he said the Spirit would say nothing on his own but take from Christ what was his (JOHN 16:15). What was his, is what the Father told him. They are doing the same thing.
JOHN 16 : 8 When he comes he will expose the guilt of the world in regard to sin"
VERSE 9 "in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me"

So the firstfruits are the first of mankind that knew the true character of God. The Jews were supposed to always have wine in their wineskins because they were supposed to share what God was like to the world. They were supposed to have this knowledge at the ready at all times.
John the Baptist told the Pharisees to produce fruit in keeping with repentance (Matt 3:8)
They worshiped the picture of a god shown them at Mount Sinai. They were supposed to repent (Turn have a change of mind). Jesus would show the true picture of God's character.

 

[Ron Hackel]

I forgot the parable of the tenant is about this. First God sent the Prophets and finally his Son.

HEBREWS 1 : 1 "In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son."

 

[Ken Brown]

I could wish that were a verbatim literal thing to be kept, this whether or not I, quote, "keep the command of G-d and circumcise all your male children on the 8th Day, and do you circumcise all the adult males in your household as did Abraham." For that would mean I was yet a younger man. And being an older man comes with painful memories concerning now seeing what we should have done but did not know to do.

However, although all of my sons as all males who lived in my house were indeed long ago circumcised, I understand that the particular kind of circumcision is not what brought God's blessing upon Abraham, but it was purely Abraham's willing obedience as a result of faith. That obedience of faith was demonstrated by compliance with God's commandments to Abraham in relation to many things that God asked of him.

How can I explain that in a way others will be able to understand? It was not what was done but the fact that God had asked that it be done and, purely because God asked it, Abraham's heart was ready and willing to obey, even though Abraham did not understand why God was asking it. And that is how we should be.

But this is also where the Jews have failed since the bringing in of a better covenant established upon better promises. Hebrews 8:6

Most of the portion of Jews who yet even remain religious are so fixated on the commandment of the Old (from which they draw esteem having been that covenant's appointed guardians in this world), that they have robbed God of his right to command whatever he wills including something entirely new if they in anyway see his new commandment as nullifying the Old.

God was very sly. By commanding something new he demonstrated the unwillingness in our hearts to really let him have the lead over us.

Deuteronomy 10:16 "Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked."

Deuteronomy 30:5-6 "And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers. And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live."

Shalom Mountain Climber, I like what you have said here, and it does appear you are in the process of climbing a mountain. I would like for you to explain some things a little better for me. You stated previously that G-d's grace "renders to us a cleansed record whereby we can stand before God having a good conscience." Along with "Just as one has righteousness imputed of God's merciful grace to lift the burden of guilt from off them." So my question to you is...what causes the burden of guilt to be lifted off sinners, and brings about the cleansed record from the sinners past life of sin? Can you explain the mechanics of this, or exactly what is your "faith" that renders you righteous and causes G-d to overlook your previous sins? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

 

[Ken Brown]

I forgot the parable of the tenant is about this. First God sent the Prophets and finally his Son.

HEBREWS 1 : 1 "In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son."

Shalom Ron, I was wondering if you believe the fullness of the Gentiles has come so that the salvation of all Israel can happen? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew

 

[Mountain_Climber]

Shalom Mountain Climber, I like what you have said here, and it does appear you are in the process of climbing a mountain. I would like for you to explain some things a little better for me. You stated previously that G-d's grace "renders to us a cleansed record whereby we can stand before God having a good conscience." Along with "Just as one has righteousness imputed of God's merciful grace to lift the burden of guilt from off them." So my question to you is...what causes the burden of guilt to be lifted off sinners, and brings about the cleansed record from the sinners past life of sin? Can you explain the mechanics of this, or exactly what is your "faith" that renders you righteous and causes G-d to overlook your previous sins? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

I suppose I can IF I first manage to rightly divide your questions so that I am actually speaking to what you are asking.

Explain the mechanics of exactly what causes the burden of guilt to be lifted off sinners, and brings about the cleansed record from the sinners past life of sin? Or, [in other words] exactly what is your "faith" that renders you righteous and causes G-d to overlook your previous sins?

Faith is a mere motivator and works can be performed with different motivations. Therefore it is important what we have faith in. And it is important what our real motive is in performing a work.

James, whom so many are confused at and so dispute, did not say that faith or works either one make us righteous. James said, "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." James 2:24 (KJV)

One can easily see that as if James did say that faith itself combined with works themselves, that the two working together are what of themselves justify us. That is due to the way many understand the word, "by", in the phrases, "that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." But the Greek word there translated as, "by", is "dia", meaning "through". Thus what James has told us is that the one who justifies us does that justifying of us through our works of faith. James speaks in full awareness that the one who does the justifying also judges those works and the faith which motivates those works that they must meet up to his required standards. Romans 8:33b ".......... It is God that justifieth."

The burden of guilt is lifted by the sense that we are now on course with God and accepted of him as his pupal. That is why it is called, "a clean conscience."

The truth of it, as to whether it is real or merely imagined, will be evident also through the works we do. Or, we might say that in a better way, that the truth of it will be evident in the quality of the works we are enabled to have by means of that relationship.

Yet I know that is something much of the present Christian community would find fault with, they having devalued all works together, so that even God's works (that is to say, 'godly works') are challenged by them.

 

[Ron Hackel]

Yes the time of the Gentiles is here or close at hand. There should be a worldwide financial collapse 9/28. Zechariah 11 is a scenario of this final time. It is the end of the time of the Gentiles because as the Jews they have rejected God. Paul warned that they would be stripped from the vine if they did not continue in the kindness of God. Over the last 1500 years they have totally rejected the true character God as the Jews did. Did you ever notice that Jesus and Mount Sinai god, that God presented the Jews, are complete opposites?

God had led them like a loving Father for the first 90 days after slavery, but as Psalm 78:32 says,they refused to believe in him. The psalm said they were sinning. After 90 days God finally relented and allowed them a god they would follow. Compare the two pictures:

Mount Sinai god said eye for and life for life. In the middle east the Jews and Palestinians go back and forth killing each other. Both sides worship the Mount Sinai god. and here is what God said about this edict.

EZEKIEL 20 : 25 "I also gave them over to statutes that were not good and laws they could not live by."

The Mount Sinai god allowed divorce and to treat their women like possessions.
MALACHI 2 : 16 "I hate divorce, says the Lord."

Compare the picture of God at the cave with Elijah to the god, God showed the Jews at Mount Sinai. At the cave he was not in the earthquake and came as a gentle whisper. At Mount Sinai the entire mountain was shaking and the trumpet blast from God grew louder and louder. The telling thing is what Paul said in Hebrews about Moses. Paul said the site at Mount Sinai had him trembling with fear. Yet what did he tell the Jews?
EXODUS 20 : 20 "Do not be afraid. God has come to test you."
Moses said that because he knew that really wasn't how God was. What was the answer to the test? "Speak to us yourself and we will listen"
So at that time they weren't ready to accept the God he was.

DEUTERONOMY 18 : 17 "What the people say is good. I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth"
Do you remember Jesus saying, "I will say nothing on my own, only what the Father has taught me?

Before Mount Sinai, no matter how much they grumbled, God simply did what they asked for. After Mount Sinai, you grumble and the ground would open up or fire come down and consumed you. What did Jesus say about bringing down fire? James and John asked to do it when the Samarian village didn't welcome Jesus. Jesus turned and rebuked them. They only asked because that is the god they had been led to believe in. It is the same reason Phillip asked Jesus to show us the Father.

Steven said the same: ACTS 7 : 39 "But our fathers refused to obey him. Instead they rejected him and in their hearts turned back to Egypt."
VERSE 42 "But God turned away and gave them over to the worship of the heavenly bodies."

God said in the garden that a seed of the woman (God's people) would crush Satan's head. Jesus came to do away with sin which is mistrust in a loving Father. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil was not a test by God to see if they would be his children. Think how ridicules that is. What would you think of a human father that had a test to see if he wanted to keep his children? This is a lie by Satan planted in human's minds. Paul said we can defeat Satan's lies by our knowledge of God. If it was a test there would have had to be temptations. Satan tempted Eve by saying she would be like God. But there were three temptations.

GENESIS 3 : 6 "When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, AND also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took"

Who created the tree and made it good for food and pleasing to the eye?

JAMES 1 ; 9 "nor does he tempt anyone"

We've just destroyed one of Satan's greatest lies. Sin is not trusting in God. In Adam all sin. He passed this fear of God to his offspring and had them sacrifice to appease God. It is the same fear Satan has put in all human minds. Not to eat off the tree was a warning by God not to use their freewill.

HOSEA 10 : 13 "you have eaten the fruit of deception, because you have depended on your own strength."
JEREMIAH 10 : 13 "I know, O Lord, that a man's life is not his own; it is not for man to direct his steps."

This 6000 years has been a demonstration of what created beings do when they have freewill. Not a pretty picture!!!!!!

 

[Ken Brown]

I suppose I can IF I first manage to rightly divide your questions so that I am actually speaking to what you are asking.

Explain the mechanics of exactly what causes the burden of guilt to be lifted off sinners, and brings about the cleansed record from the sinners past life of sin? Or, [in other words] exactly what is your "faith" that renders you righteous and causes G-d to overlook your previous sins?

Faith is a mere motivator and works can be performed with different motivations. Therefore it is important what we have faith in. And it is important what our real motive is in performing a work.

James, whom so many are confused at and so dispute, did not say that faith or works either one make us righteous. James said, "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." James 2:24 (KJV)

One can easily see that as if James did say that faith itself combined with works themselves, that the two working together are what of themselves justify us. That is due to the way many understand the word, "by", in the phrases, "that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." But the Greek word there translated as, "by", is "dia", meaning "through". Thus what James has told us is that the one who justifies us does that justifying of us through our works of faith. James speaks in full awareness that the one who does the justifying also judges those works and the faith which motivates those works that they must meet up to his required standards. Romans 8:33b ".......... It is God that justifieth."

The burden of guilt is lifted by the sense that we are now on course with God and accepted of him as his pupal. That is why it is called, "a clean conscience."

The truth of it, as to whether it is real or merely imagined, will be evident also through the works we do. Or, we might say that in a better way, that the truth of it will be evident in the quality of the works we are enabled to have by means of that relationship.

Yet I know that is something much of the present Christian community would find fault with, they having devalued all works together, so that even God's works (that is to say, 'godly works') are challenged by them.

Shalom Mountain Climber, I can see a different attitude in how you think and I appreciate it. Please let me to further ask you some questions. Paul speaks of those who "seek" the righteousness in Messiah are FOUND as sinners, and then asks the question, does Messiah PROMOTE sin. What are your thoughts on this? Blessings in The Name, Imahebrew.

 

[Mountain_Climber]

Yes the time of the Gentiles is here or close at hand. There should be a worldwide financial collapse 9/28. Zechariah 11 is a scenario of this final time. It is the end of the time of the Gentiles because as the Jews they have rejected God. Paul warned that they would be stripped from the vine if they did not continue in the kindness of God. Over the last 1500 years they have totally rejected the true character God as the Jews did. Did you ever notice that Jesus and Mount Sinai god, that God presented the Jews, are complete opposites?

God had led them like a loving Father for the first 90 days after slavery, but as Psalm 78:32 says,they refused to believe in him. The psalm said they were sinning. After 90 days God finally relented and allowed them a god they would follow. Compare the two pictures:

Mount Sinai god said eye for and life for life. In the middle east the Jews and Palestinians go back and forth killing each other. Both sides worship the Mount Sinai god. and here is what God said about this edict.

EZEKIEL 20 : 25 "I also gave them over to statutes that were not good and laws they could not live by."

The Mount Sinai god allowed divorce and to treat their women like possessions.
MALACHI 2 : 16 "I hate divorce, says the Lord."

Compare the picture of God at the cave with Elijah to the god, God showed the Jews at Mount Sinai. At the cave he was not in the earthquake and came as a gentle whisper. At Mount Sinai the entire mountain was shaking and the trumpet blast from God grew louder and louder. The telling thing is what Paul said in Hebrews about Moses. Paul said the site at Mount Sinai had him trembling with fear. Yet what did he tell the Jews?
EXODUS 20 : 20 "Do not be afraid. God has come to test you."
Moses said that because he knew that really wasn't how God was. What was the answer to the test? "Speak to us yourself and we will listen"
So at that time they weren't ready to accept the God he was.

DEUTERONOMY 18 : 17 "What the people say is good. I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth"
Do you remember Jesus saying, "I will say nothing on my own, only what the Father has taught me?

Before Mount Sinai, no matter how much they grumbled, God simply did what they asked for. After Mount Sinai, you grumble and the ground would open up or fire come down and consumed you. What did Jesus say about bringing down fire? James and John asked to do it when the Samarian village didn't welcome Jesus. Jesus turned and rebuked them. They only asked because that is the god they had been led to believe in. It is the same reason Phillip asked Jesus to show us the Father.

Steven said the same: ACTS 7 : 39 "But our fathers refused to obey him. Instead they rejected him and in their hearts turned back to Egypt."
VERSE 42 "But God turned away and gave them over to the worship of the heavenly bodies."

God said in the garden that a seed of the woman (God's people) would crush Satan's head. Jesus came to do away with sin which is mistrust in a loving Father. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil was not a test by God to see if they would be his children. Think how ridicules that is. What would you think of a human father that had a test to see if he wanted to keep his children? This is a lie by Satan planted in human's minds. Paul said we can defeat Satan's lies by our knowledge of God. If it was a test there would have had to be temptations. Satan tempted Eve by saying she would be like God. But there were three temptations.

GENESIS 3 : 6 "When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, AND also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took"

Who created the tree and made it good for food and pleasing to the eye?

JAMES 1 ; 9 "nor does he tempt anyone"

We've just destroyed one of Satan's greatest lies. Sin is not trusting in God. In Adam all sin. He passed this fear of God to his offspring and had them sacrifice to appease God. It is the same fear Satan has put in all human minds. Not to eat off the tree was a warning by God not to use their freewill.

HOSEA 10 : 13 "you have eaten the fruit of deception, because you have depended on your own strength."
JEREMIAH 10 : 13 "I know, O Lord, that a man's life is not his own; it is not for man to direct his steps."

This 6000 years has been a demonstration of what created beings do when they have freewill. Not a pretty picture!!!!!!

Yes, there are so many different views of this out there that sorting through them brings weariness to one's soul.

Most of Christianity claims God created man with free-will so that God anticipated men would choose whether or not they wished to serve God. But Is that really true?

Jehovah's Witnesses alter that somewhat by saying that God gave man a relative freedom of will. That is, man's freedom is relative to God's approval of man's use of that freedom. This seems to be a bit closer to reality. But is it?

In one comment it is man sins due to the ignorance in him. In another comment man sins due to having inherited a sinful nature. In another comment man sins by choice. No wonder so many men go bald!!!

God gave all sorts of complicated figures, the deduction of which and what they point to only his holy ones will be able to understand. God is love and all life is precious to him. Right, and then he makes things so complicated that his little children are reduced to tears for their inability to understand? Give me a break!!!

I am becoming more and more convinced that the real answer is for us to lock out all of the insanity and just try to love as best we can discern that God would have us to love. But with so many false gods having shaped the minds and hearts of many that might not be something they are any longer able to do.

 

[Ken Brown]

Yes the time of the Gentiles is here or close at hand. There should be a worldwide financial collapse 9/28. Zechariah 11 is a scenario of this final time. It is the end of the time of the Gentiles because as the Jews they have rejected God. Paul warned that they would be stripped from the vine if they did not continue in the kindness of God. Over the last 1500 years they have totally rejected the true character God as the Jews did. Did you ever notice that Jesus and Mount Sinai god, that God presented the Jews, are complete opposites?

God had led them like a loving Father for the first 90 days after slavery, but as Psalm 78:32 says,they refused to believe in him. The psalm said they were sinning. After 90 days God finally relented and allowed them a god they would follow. Compare the two pictures:

Mount Sinai god said eye for and life for life. In the middle east the Jews and Palestinians go back and forth killing each other. Both sides worship the Mount Sinai god. and here is what God said about this edict.

EZEKIEL 20 : 25 "I also gave them over to statutes that were not good and laws they could not live by."

The Mount Sinai god allowed divorce and to treat their women like possessions.
MALACHI 2 : 16 "I hate divorce, says the Lord."

Compare the picture of God at the cave with Elijah to the god, God showed the Jews at Mount Sinai. At the cave he was not in the earthquake and came as a gentle whisper. At Mount Sinai the entire mountain was shaking and the trumpet blast from God grew louder and louder. The telling thing is what Paul said in Hebrews about Moses. Paul said the site at Mount Sinai had him trembling with fear. Yet what did he tell the Jews?
EXODUS 20 : 20 "Do not be afraid. God has come to test you."
Moses said that because he knew that really wasn't how God was. What was the answer to the test? "Speak to us yourself and we will listen"
So at that time they weren't ready to accept the God he was.

DEUTERONOMY 18 : 17 "What the people say is good. I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth"
Do you remember Jesus saying, "I will say nothing on my own, only what the Father has taught me?

Before Mount Sinai, no matter how much they grumbled, God simply did what they asked for. After Mount Sinai, you grumble and the ground would open up or fire come down and consumed you. What did Jesus say about bringing down fire? James and John asked to do it when the Samarian village didn't welcome Jesus. Jesus turned and rebuked them. They only asked because that is the god they had been led to believe in. It is the same reason Phillip asked Jesus to show us the Father.

Steven said the same: ACTS 7 : 39 "But our fathers refused to obey him. Instead they rejected him and in their hearts turned back to Egypt."
VERSE 42 "But God turned away and gave them over to the worship of the heavenly bodies."

God said in the garden that a seed of the woman (God's people) would crush Satan's head. Jesus came to do away with sin which is mistrust in a loving Father. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil was not a test by God to see if they would be his children. Think how ridicules that is. What would you think of a human father that had a test to see if he wanted to keep his children? This is a lie by Satan planted in human's minds. Paul said we can defeat Satan's lies by our knowledge of God. If it was a test there would have had to be temptations. Satan tempted Eve by saying she would be like God. But there were three temptations.

GENESIS 3 : 6 "When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, AND also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took"

Who created the tree and made it good for food and pleasing to the eye?

JAMES 1 ; 9 "nor does he tempt anyone"

We've just destroyed one of Satan's greatest lies. Sin is not trusting in God. In Adam all sin. He passed this fear of God to his offspring and had them sacrifice to appease God. It is the same fear Satan has put in all human minds. Not to eat off the tree was a warning by God not to use their freewill.

HOSEA 10 : 13 "you have eaten the fruit of deception, because you have depended on your own strength."
JEREMIAH 10 : 13 "I know, O Lord, that a man's life is not his own; it is not for man to direct his steps."

This 6000 years has been a demonstration of what created beings do when they have freewill. Not a pretty picture!!!!!!

Shalom Ron, so you think mankind has a "freewill?" Why hasn't any of mankind exercised their freewill and OBEYED? Blessings in The Name, Imahebrew.

 

[Ken Brown]

Yes, there are so many different views of this out there that sorting through them brings weariness to one's soul.

Most of Christianity claims God created man with free-will so that God anticipated men would choose whether or not they wished to serve God. But Is that really true?

Jehovah's Witnesses alter that somewhat by saying that God gave man a relative freedom of will. That is, man's freedom is relative to God's approval of man's use of that freedom. This seems to be a bit closer to reality. But is it?

In one comment it is man sins due to the ignorance in him. In another comment man sins due to having inherited a sinful nature. In another comment man sins by choice. No wonder so many men go bald!!!

God gave all sorts of complicated figures, the deduction of which and what they point to only his holy ones will be able to understand. God is love and all life is precious to him. Right, and then he makes things so complicated that his little children are reduced to tears for their inability to understand? Give me a break!!!

I am becoming more and more convinced that the real answer is for us to lock out all of the insanity and just try to love as best we can discern that God would have us to love. But with so many false gods having shaped the minds and hearts of many that might not be something they are any longer able to do.

Shalom Mountain Climber, I am again intrigued by your beliefs. What are your thoughts about "fleeing to the mountains," when you see the abomination of desolation? Blessings in The Name, Imahebrew.

 

[Mountain_Climber]

Shalom Mountain Climber, I am again intrigued by your beliefs. What are your thoughts about "fleeing to the mountains," when you see the abomination of desolation? Blessings in The Name, Imahebrew.

Some have said that in the first century that disgusting thing was the Roman army. And that used to seem logical to me. But the Roman army never entered the temple until long after it was way too late for any of Jerusalem's inhabitants to flee to the mountains.

It has been picking away at my heart lately that this disgusting thing which causes desolation is, collectively, false religion.

Of the many conflicts causing desolation in this world right now, the overwhelming majority are religious based. And I would not be surprised that even in the case of nations like South Korea there is a religious element involved even though not immediately obvious to us.

Fleeing to the mountains would mean to get out of and stop being led by these false religions. It would mean to place our faith in the kingdom of God to deal with these religions and the kingdoms that they ride upon in this earth. And as fleeing involves walking, now more than ever it is important to focus on how Christ alone would have us to walk and make haste in following his footsteps. There is no way we can do that if we set any of these religions as his mouthpiece to us for they all will only end us up having followed in their will and having followed in their footsteps, which has not been a pretty picture.

 

[Ken Brown]

Some have said that in the first century that disgusting thing was the Roman army. And that used to seem logical to me. But the Roman army never entered the temple until long after it was way too late for any of Jerusalem's inhabitants to flee to the mountains.

It has been picking away at my heart lately that this disgusting thing which causes desolation is, collectively, false religion.

Of the many conflicts causing desolation in this world right now, the overwhelming majority are religious based. And I would not be surprised that even in the case of nations like South Korea there is a religious element involved even though not immediately obvious to us.

Fleeing to the mountains would mean to get out of and stop being led by these false religions. It would mean to place our faith in the kingdom of God to deal with these religions and the kingdoms that they ride upon in this earth. And as fleeing involves walking, now more than ever it is important to focus on how Christ alone would have us to walk and make haste in following his footsteps. There is no way we can do that if we set any of these religions as his mouthpiece to us for they all will only end us up having followed in their will and having followed in their footsteps, which has not been a pretty picture.

Shalom Mountain Climber, you are impressing me, as I have a friend that views the abomination much as you do. I am not in total agreement, but we are close. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

P.S. Why pray that your flight is not on the Sabbath?

 

[Mountain_Climber]

Shalom Mountain Climber, you are impressing me, as I have a friend that views the abomination much as you do. I am not in total agreement, but we are close. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

P.S. Why pray that your flight is not on the Sabbath?

Matthew 24:20 "But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day.."

I don't know. Every answer I can think of falls short in one way or another when I follow it through in my mind.

I know that traditions which were superimposed on top of the actual requirements set forth in the Torah, required that the gates to the city be closed and locked on the Sabbath day. But if it were impossible to escape then it seems there would be no sense in saying, "that your flight not be", for it would go without saying that no flight then could be. Further, winter does not make flight impossible, although it would make flight much more difficult and it would increase the losses one had to suffer in fleeing. I can't say as locking the gates would prevent anyone from leaving if they were very determined to leave. Perhaps as it relates to that day the thought is the same, simply that it would be much more difficult and involve much greater losses.

Those same traditions set limits on many things related to the Sabbath which were not specified as requirements under the Old Law. Thus we see man-made ordinances regulating the manner in which ones worshiped and obeyed God, made by men who had seated themselves in the temple of God, portraying themselves that they were in essence, charged with interpreting the Law. In other words they had made themselves as God's mind and mouthpiece to the people and their word was law (though they would deny it was their word, calling it God's). It is a similar type of occurrence that Paul has in mind at 2 Thessalonians chapter 2:3-4.

Now that is a disgusting thing which causes desolation to the people. On their word the Roman armies would be incited to either work with or attack them. And the Zealots had more favor with them than the average peace loving Jew. I would say that seeing that union reforming ought to have reminded many of Masada and should have been a clear signal to get away from a very predictable disaster. But I, like everyone else, can only speculate.

Yet, I see another echo of that event about to occur. I see the massive kingdom built by Christians as being a reworking of that first century political/religious/commercial structure riding atop the kingdoms of this world. And I see that events are now taking place with the blessings of that religious structure which are going to bring the governments of this world to do to it what Rome did to that first century Jerusalem. And there will be no exceptions for Muslims or Jews or Christians or for any religion once the governments turn on them.

Do I know that for a certainty? No.

All I can do is watch and try to figure it out as things move along, the same as anyone else.

But why pray? Why pray that this flight be not in the winter nor on the Sabbath day? I can only figure that means to pray for God to grant me the wisdom to see while there is yet time to make that flight, before having to make that flight comes at such a great cost.

 

[Ron Hackel]

Ken If we didn't have freewill the world wouldn't be this screwed up. Jesus said, God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven. That is one of the claims Lucifer made about God in heaven. He said that if God really loved his created beings he'd allow them freewill. And as we see its not that God doesn't allow freewill because we have it, but he knows with it we'd destroy the universe. In Zechariah, God says he does nothing by might nor power. He lets you find out on your own. His law is perfect and gives us his law, but we can do with it what we will-freewill. Paul calls this God's discipline. Since his laws are perfect-the best way for us to behave in order to be happy, doing something against his law results in less than an optimum outcome. This is called God's wrath. Satan has us thinking it is God doing something vindictive to us, but it is a God of total love giving us what we desire. If you read the first chapter of Romans Paul says God wrath is being revealed against all ungodliness. That is doing something against what God says is good for us-ungodliness. As Paul says he gives us up-allows us to our freewill.

As long as we have freewill we are slaves to suggestions by Satan to our minds. Think about Isaiah 6 where God tells Isaiah to prophesy that the people would have eyes but not see and ears but not hear ect. ect. We know that what ever God had a prophet prophesy, it happened. We know a God of love wouldn't want this to happen. This is God allowing freewill. As long as you have freewill Satan controls your mind. That is why there are hundreds of different takes on religions and people are able to argue convincingly. Satan is giving support in all the lies. Satan is laughing all the way though because the Bible says ALL the religions are wrong ISAIAH 6. Isaiah asked how long? God told him until the earth is destroyed and Satan proven wrong. Satan made three claims in heaven. That God didn't love his created beings, they should have freewill and he had a better way to rule. God uses the law of love or living to give. Paul said we could look at God's creation. Every thing is a perfect cycle. If you have freewill, which is a carnal nature-self seeking, you will not do the law of love. If you are making a decision do you not choose what ends up best for yourself? You may sometimes think of someone else first, but how do you know for sure what is best for that person and the other seven billion people on the planet? Only an all knowing God can orchestrate a universe where every decision ends up the perfect decision for everyone.

So how do we do God's will?

1 CORINTHIANS 2 : 11 "For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God."
1 CORINTHIANS 15 : 28 "so that God may be all in all."

COLOSSIANS 1 : 27 "to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory."

We will have the same Spirit in us as in the Father and Son. Remember, Jesus said I'm in the Father and the Father is in me?

First God has to restore confidence in his character. God is agape love. It's a love we can't feel. He will not put his Spirit in anyone unless they have total trust in God. To him it would be like a stalker wanting a date with a girl that didn't trust the guy.

1 JOHN 4 : 18 "There is no fear in love. Perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

God is perfect love. He punishes no one. Using Lucifer's law of greed we have destroyed this world. In the end every knee will bow and say in God is total love

 

[Mountain_Climber]

Ken If we didn't have freewill the world wouldn't be this screwed up. Jesus said, God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven. That is one of the claims Lucifer made about God in heaven. He said that if God really loved his created beings he'd allow them freewill. And as we see its not that God doesn't allow freewill because we have it, but he knows with it we'd destroy the universe. In Zechariah, God says he does nothing by might nor power. He lets you find out on your own. His law is perfect and gives us his law, but we can do with it what we will-freewill. Paul calls this God's discipline. Since his laws are perfect-the best way for us to behave in order to be happy, doing something against his law results in less than an optimum outcome. This is called God's wrath. Satan has us thinking it is God doing something vindictive to us, but it is a God of total love giving us what we desire. If you read the first chapter of Romans Paul says God wrath is being revealed against all ungodliness. That is doing something against what God says is good for us-ungodliness. As Paul says he gives us up-allows us to our freewill.

As long as we have freewill we are slaves to suggestions by Satan to our minds. Think about Isaiah 6 where God tells Isaiah to prophesy that the people would have eyes but not see and ears but not hear ect. ect. We know that what ever God had a prophet prophesy, it happened. We know a God of love wouldn't want this to happen. This is God allowing freewill. As long as you have freewill Satan controls your mind. That is why there are hundreds of different takes on religions and people are able to argue convincingly. Satan is giving support in all the lies. Satan is laughing all the way though because the Bible says ALL the religions are wrong ISAIAH 6. Isaiah asked how long? God told him until the earth is destroyed and Satan proven wrong. Satan made three claims in heaven. That God didn't love his created beings, they should have freewill and he had a better way to rule. God uses the law of love or living to give. Paul said we could look at God's creation. Every thing is a perfect cycle. If you have freewill, which is a carnal nature-self seeking, you will not do the law of love. If you are making a decision do you not choose what ends up best for yourself? You may sometimes think of someone else first, but how do you know for sure what is best for that person and the other seven billion people on the planet? Only an all knowing God can orchestrate a universe where every decision ends up the perfect decision for everyone.

So how do we do God's will?

1 CORINTHIANS 2 : 11 "For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God."
1 CORINTHIANS 15 : 28 "so that God may be all in all."

COLOSSIANS 1 : 27 "to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory."

We will have the same Spirit in us as in the Father and Son. Remember, Jesus said I'm in the Father and the Father is in me?

First God has to restore confidence in his character. God is agape love. It's a love we can't feel. He will not put his Spirit in anyone unless they have total trust in God. To him it would be like a stalker wanting a date with a girl that didn't trust the guy.

1 JOHN 4 : 18 "There is no fear in love. Perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

God is perfect love. He punishes no one. Using Lucifer's law of greed we have destroyed this world. In the end every knee will bow and say in God is total love

I agree with you that this free-will claim as described by most people originated with the devil.

I see that Paul speaks concerning the freedom of the sons of God:

Galatians 5:1 "For freedom did Christ set us free: stand fast therefore, and be not entangled again in a yoke of bondage."

Galatians 5:13 "For ye, brethren, were called for freedom; only use not your freedom for an occasion to the flesh, but through love be servants one to another."

Romans 8:20-21 "For the creation was subjected to vanity, not of its own will, but by reason of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the liberty of the glory of the children of God."

Peter also mentions freedom: 1 Peter 2:15-16 "For so is the will of God, that by well-doing ye should put to silence the ignorance of foolish men: as free, and not using your freedom for a cloak of wickedness, but as bondservants of God."

Jesus spoke of it also: Luke 4:18 "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, Because he anointed me to preach good tidings to the poor: He hath sent me to proclaim release to the captives, And recovering of sight to the blind, To set at liberty them that are bruised.."

In everyone of those cases the freedom is freedom from a former form of slavery that we were under due to sin. And we cannot reasonably claim God has given us total freedom simply because he has set us free from that yolk of slavery. To claim so is ludicrous and extremely lacking in appreciation for what God did for us.

1 Corinthians 8:9 "But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to the weak." Why take heed? Because that freedom given us is from the Old Law which used to govern us when we were slaves of sin by way of the ignorance in us. It had to tell us not to do these things because we were not telling ourselves not to do these things, instead constantly walking away to that freedom Satan popularized to Eve and Eve to Adam and Adam to us.

So it is that we are not under law, instead, by the education God has given us in his love we use that love to establish law. There is a difference between being under law and establishing law. Many it seems do not understand that difference.

Romans 3:31 "Do we then make the law of none effect through faith? God forbid: nay, we establish the law."

It is vital that we understand Paul's words there at Romans 3:31.

Far from destroying the Law of God the situation is merely that we need no longer be under that Law as slaves to it's letter and this by reason of the fact that by the knowledge of God's righteous love we now establish God's law among mankind, walking in God's image as we ought to walk.

So we see that we were freed from slavery to sin and from the necessity of being under a law external to our hearts like a yolk upon us keeping us plowing in the right direction. But as James intimates, if we use that freedom from being externally governed of law to further engage in sin, then we place ourselves back in need of that external law once again. James 2:8-9 "Howbeit if ye fulfill the royal law, according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, ye do well: but if ye have respect of persons, ye commit sin, being convicted by the law as transgressors."

That sort of not only blows the common teachings concerning free-will out of the water but also the inherited sin nature idea which claims it is impossible due to that nature for us not to sin.

Well done, Ron Hackel.

Added: As a side note, by walking in God's image so that his righteousness dictates our conduct from our own hearts, we become as described at Psalms 125:1 "They that trust in Jehovah are as mount Zion, which cannot be moved, but abideth for ever."

This is a hint to those who think they have understood what the kingdom of God is and how it will operate. Or, for that matter, even what it looks like.