The Law

[JesusBeliever]

I came across this:

"Some Christians believe that they should keep old covenant observances such as the weekly and annual Sabbaths. A person is a "true Christian" only if he or she observes Sabbaths and certain other old covenant requirements. But the truth is that these old worship regulations are not required today, and it is legalistic to teach that people must obey those rules in order to be accounted worthy of salvation."

That is a popular argument for why Christians don't observe those Laws...

Why does that paragraph say the things that it says? First the Bible commanded us to keep 613 Commandments. Where is the prophecy in the "Old Testament" that says those Laws would someday be invalid or no longer required?

Hi there,

The 613 Commandments belong to the Old Covenant which the Prophet Jeremiah tells us would be replaced with a New Covenant because the first one was broken:

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. Jeremiah 31:31-34

This prophecy is further elaborated on in Hebrews 8:6-13.

Why would Yahweh force all people to observe a Feast that is no longer valid, and has no purpose? Why would Yahweh force people to be "legalistic?"

Also, I must point out that the prophecy is that Yahweh will force the heathen to keep the Feast. Does this mean that the Christians are keeping it already voluntarily? Or, does it mean that the Feast of Tabernacles will be a part of Hell?

[FYI I observe the Feast of Tabernacles Deut. 12:5-6]

We are told in the New Testament that the Sabbath and Feast Days are a Shadow (Prophetic) of things to come:

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. Colossians 2:16-17

Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man. For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer. For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law: Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount. Hebrews 8:1-5

Consider the fact that Christians believe Jesus is our Passover Lamb, Pentecost is the outpouring of the Holy Spirit and Tabernacles appears to be a 2nd outpouring of the Spirit. In the New Testament, Christians are told that Jesus stood up on the last Great Day of the Feast of Tabernacles and said:

John 7:37-39 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

According to Christians, this would appear to be the meaning of Zechariah's statement that they would receive "no rain":

Zechariah 14:16-17 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. 17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

John 19:21 Then said the chief priests of the Jews to Pilate, Write not, The King of the Jews; but that he said, I am King of the Jews.

As we all know, Christians believe Jesus is indeed the King, the LORD of hosts!

 

[Mountain_Climber]

Most Jews I know of would not agree with that statement. We can run a poll right now and ask the Jews on this forum.

One must understand that it is not a crime under the New Covenant to observe certain aspects of that Old Law Covenant in a right spirit. That is demonstrated not only in Paul's counsel on the operation of love as in Romans chapter 14. Further, Paul strongly cautioned the church at Galatia that if they became circumcised Christ would be of no profit to them and yet we see at Acts 16:3 that Paul had Timothy get circumcised for reasons of love that his uncircumcised state as the son of a Jewish woman not stumble those Jews with whom Paul and Timothy would thereafter be sharing the gospel of Christ.

But we need to answer Mattithyya's question concerning the Feast of Tabernacles (aka Festival of Booths). To do that we must be able to show how that festival is fulfilled by the spirit of it in Christ.

I would like to here and now correct one missed understanding I see by many who rely on the statement that the Law was fulfilled in Christ. It is not only fulfilled in Christ's literal body but also in his spiritual body, the church: Romans 8:4 "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

So you can see that that Law yet continues being fulfilled daily in the lives of the elect of God in Christ. How? By the spirit of that Law as they walk by spirit. (Let me just add here that the spirit of that Law is God's righteousness. We often sum that up as Godly love but it is important to understand that it is godly love of a nature that fulfills God's righteousness which was the requirement of that Old Law.)

This then means that we must seek to understand the things of that Law and search to learn what that spirit is that is the root behind the various features of that Law. And when explaining how the Law was fulfilled in Christ and is being fulfilled in his body, the church, we need not only to have a clear grasp on what that spirit behind each of the aspects of that Law is but we also need to be able to show a Jew this from the very scriptures he himself uses.

Too many have tried to teach Jews by using the New Testament only, and this has led to much rejection of the New Testament by Jews. Until you become able to prove this to them from their own Jewish Bible you are unable to help them and you risk causing more harm to the cause than good.

 

[metis]

Hi there,

The 613 Commandments belong to the Old Covenant which the Prophet Jeremiah tells us would be replaced with a New Covenant because the first one was broken:

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. Jeremiah 31:31-34

But notice that Jeremiah does not say that the Law would be negated. And common sense should tell anyone that if God punishes us for not obeying the Law, then why in the world would this same God turn around an negate the Law that He punished people for not obeying? That makes not one iota of sense.

There are numerous covenants within the Tanakh, so the addition of a new one doesn't mean another one is dead. Also, as an example I used on another post, if you're stopped for speeding, tell the officer that he shouldn't give you a ticket because you "fulfilled the law". Good luck with that.

 

[b.finton]

When you change the priesthood, you change the Law so said Paul.

I've got some thread-catching-up to do, but your comment made me realize something I hadn't considered. Dogmas aside, the priesthood has been changed. At a minimum, the accepted Levitical priesthood is in abeyance until a third temple is constructed. Until then, Rabbis, Ministers, and Mullahs continue to serve each camp, be they mellow or nasty or not.

Assuming there is one, the present priesthood operates in the astral, equivalent to that bandwidth of Ain Soph which humans perceive. That bandwidth, itself, is the interface between the celestial and the terrestrial. To my understanding, this doorway/dalet is the spiritual Yahushua of the gospels, the Salvation of YH. Our core beings are bathed in this interface as they mature. Whatever our beliefs, we continually are being tossed against one another in the astral. As the rough edges collide, humanity is being ushered to consensus, to equilibrium, to understanding: to the birth, among us, of a new age: the age of the double dalet; the age of Yisrael's triumph in the hearts, minds, and actions of humanity; the age of the firstborn, in which Door is fitted together, perfectly, with door; the age of the merkavah.

YHWH blesses you and keeps you.
YHWH makes (his) faces to shine upon you, and is gracious unto you.
YHWH lifts up (his) expressions within you, and gives you peace.

b.

 

[RabbiO]

And when explaining how the Law was fulfilled in Christ and is being fulfilled in his body, the church, we need not only to have a clear grasp on what that spirit behind each of the aspects of that Law is but we also need to be able to show a Jew this from the very scriptures he himself uses.

Too many have tried to teach Jews by using the New Testament only, and this has led to much rejection of the New Testament by Jews. Until you become able to prove this to them from their own Jewish Bible you are unable to help them and you risk causing more harm to the cause than good.

Actually what we Jews need is for Christians like yourself, well intentioned though you may be, to stop trying to foist on us your interpretations of our sacred literature. What we Jews need is for Christians like yourself to stop seeing us as some sort of spiritual reclamation project. What we Jews need is for Christians like yourself to stop seeing Jews as spiritually ignorant and spiritually illiterate.

Well intentioned though they be, your efforts are neither welcome nor appreciated.

 

[Flankerl]

The Law

If only Jesus had fulfilled Hunger.

 

[Mountain_Climber]

Actually what we Jews need is for Christians like yourself, well intentioned though you may be, to stop trying to foist on us your interpretations of our sacred literature. What we Jews need is for Christians like yourself to stop seeing us as some sort of spiritual reclamation project. What we Jews need is for Christians like yourself to stop seeing Jews as spiritually ignorant and spiritually illiterate.

Well intentioned though they be, your efforts are neither welcome nor appreciated.

Being of Jewish lineage myself, I understand exactly why you would say that.

Sometimes what we need is not so obvious to us as what we want. And sometimes we confuse what we want as what we need.

But would Eleazar being able to convey that to you?

Or, for that matter, would David or any of the Psalmists be able to reason that through with you?

The place to begin one's journey toward unraveling this dilemma is in the Psalms. But one could of course piecemeal even them in support of only what they desire to see. Like for example the 105th Psalm if one chose to focus on it alone.

So I will ask you a few questions. Upon what basis were many of the Law Covenant's observances based? What is the thing they were given as tools to keep Israel mindful of? And can it be said for that reason that those observances only apply to the natural Jew? Or, is there a spiritual parallel to that platform which was to be remembered which has come to apply to all men? What is the spiritual parallel to that platform of things these observances were given to keep the Jew mindful of? In other words, what spiritual parallel to bondage and delivery from Egypt must a New Covenant follower of Christ observe so as to be mindful of?

What do we learn from the sons of Ephraim?

Psalms 78:10-11 "They did not keep the covenant of God, And in his law they refused to walk. They also began to forget his dealings And his wonderful works that he caused them to see."

What are the wonderful works which God performed through the promised prophet like Moses? (A prophet unlike the other prophets, none of whom God spoke directly to as He did Moses.) These are what the Christian needs to be both aware of and to remember that he too not prove to lack in faith.

 

[rusra02]

Jeremiah prophesied; “Look! The days are coming,” declares Jehovah, “when I will make with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new covenant. It will not be like the covenant that I made with their forefathers on the day I took hold of their hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, ‘my covenant that they broke, although I was their true master,’ declares Jehovah.” (Jeremiah 31:31,32) Also, Moses himself quotes Jehovah as saying; "I will raise up for them from the midst of their brothers a prophet like you, and I will put my words in his mouth, and he will speak to them all that I command him. Indeed, I will require an account from the man who will not listen to my words that he will speak in my name." (Deuteronomy 18:18,19) in fact, all the Hebrew Scriptures prophesied about the coming of the Messiah who would be God's representative to his chosen people and would mediate the New Covenant.

 

[Mountain_Climber]

Jeremiah prophesied; “Look! The days are coming,” declares Jehovah, “when I will make with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new covenant. It will not be like the covenant that I made with their forefathers on the day I took hold of their hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, ‘my covenant that they broke, although I was their true master,’ declares Jehovah.” (Jeremiah 31:31,32) Also, Moses himself quotes Jehovah as saying; "I will raise up for them from the midst of their brothers a prophet like you, and I will put my words in his mouth, and he will speak to them all that I command him. Indeed, I will require an account from the man who will not listen to my words that he will speak in my name." (Deuteronomy 18:18,19) in fact, all the Hebrew Scriptures prophesied about the coming of the Messiah who would be God's representative to his chosen people and would mediate the New Covenant.

Jacob was the name given the man who was the flesh and blood son of flesh of Isaac son of the flesh of Abraham. The name Jacob was given to him by the flesh. When God had Jacob's name changed to Israel this was part of a spiritual anointing and the name Israel was given to him not by flesh but by spirit. The name of Israel thus became the name of those God chose to treat as sons. Thus an Israelite is a son of God. And yet God was never obligated to choose all who came through the flesh of Jacob as sons of Israel, God's children, for Israel was the name God chose to give one he had adopted as a son. Therefore being a son to Israel and thus one of God's children was always really dependent upon the calling and choosing of God. For this reason Moses could say, Deuteronomy 32:5 "They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they are a perverse and crooked generation." In other words, although born so of the flesh, they were neither really an Israelite nor a son to God. And that is by no means the only evidence of this we can point to in the Hebraic Scriptures. Despite this we see that many feel Paul was a renegade from the Jews, betraying his Jewish roots.

You are quoting from a renegade Jew. It's a no brainer he would write that.

Now, I have not asked that poster why he feels that way, but in my own experience i have found that largely to have to do with things such as what Paul's says at Romans 9:6-8 "However, it is not as though the word of God had failed. For not all who [spring] from Israel are really “Israel.” Neither because they are Abraham’s seed are they all children, but: “What will be called ‘your seed’ will be through Isaac.” That is, the children in the flesh are not really the children of God, but the children by the promise are counted as the seed."

Admittedly I merely brushed the subject in my opening paragraph to this post, but hopefully that will be enough to help some see that Paul was not speaking falsely. Indeed it is not being born a child of the flesh and blood Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob which qualifies us as a child of God that we should receive anything from him. And his promises were to those who would prove to be his sons.

There are numerous other little things that the average Jew today has either never been taught or at least not taught correctly. In fact many of the things they have been taught incorrectly become highlighted when they comment on subject matter of the nature which Paul spoke of in Romans chapter 11. Most so totally miss understanding what Paul has said there that they have even learned to paint a picture of it which supports the idea of fleshly inheritance based upon promises they believe were made to the flesh. And it does not help much that many Christians remain having yet to understand Paul's words, thus leaving them like loose leaves able to be blown this way and that by the winds of the ideas of the many whose objective is to defend that it is about God's promise to a people of flesh.

The spirit born child of God, one of the nature that has always been the definition of a true Israelite, has a heart that peers deeper into the Law of God than any who merely boast of a fleshly inheritance ever could or will so long as they remain content in that boast.

 

[JesusBeliever]

But notice that Jeremiah does not say that the Law would be negated. And common sense should tell anyone that if God punishes us for not obeying the Law, then why in the world would this same God turn around an negate the Law that He punished people for not obeying? That makes not one iota of sense.

There are numerous covenants within the Tanakh, so the addition of a new one doesn't mean another one is dead. Also, as an example I used on another post, if you're stopped for speeding, tell the officer that he shouldn't give you a ticket because you "fulfilled the law". Good luck with that.

Hi there, Christians are taught in the NT that the whole Law and the prophets are fulfilled in this:

"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets." Mat 7:12
Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. Rom 13:10
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Gal 5:14
If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: James 2:8

Let's just focus on this one Law for a second. We would all be forgiven for thinking, "Phew, keeping one law has gotta be easier than 10 or 613?" For many years I believed this and set about to keep this one law, only for it to hit me one day (recently) that I can't even keep this one law with out breaking it almost daily. The only days I seem to be able to keep it is when I don't interact with the other people , and even then sometimes I still break it as I find my mind and heart being tempted to think all manner of evil about my neighbour. According to Jesus, it's from out of the heart that evil proceeds:

But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: Mat 15:18-19

This realisation has helped bring me to the place where I find myself agreeing with the Apostle Paul when he says:

"What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes. Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin." Rom 3:9-20

"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith." Gal 3:10-14

I realise that even us Christians can not keep our one Law, without the help of the indwelling Spirit of Christ. Like He said while on earth:

"Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me." Joh 15:4

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. Gal 5:22-23

Without the aid of the Holy Spirit producing these fruits in us, neither Jew nor Christian could keep this one law.

 

[Mountain_Climber]

Hi there, Christians are taught in the NT that the whole Law and the prophets are fulfilled in this:

"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets." Mat 7:12
Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. Rom 13:10
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Gal 5:14
If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: James 2:8

Let's just focus on this one Law for a second. We would all be forgiven for thinking, "Phew, keeping one law has gotta be easier than 10 or 613?" For many years I believed this and set about to keep this one law, only for it to hit me one day (recently) that I can't even keep this one law with out breaking it almost daily. The only days I seem to be able to keep it is when I don't interact with the other people , and even then sometimes I still break it as I find my mind and heart being tempted to think all manner of evil about my neighbour. According to Jesus, it's from out of the heart that evil proceeds:

But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: Mat 15:18-19

This realisation has helped bring me to the place where I find myself agreeing with the Apostle Paul when he says:

"What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes. Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin." Rom 3:9-20

"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith." Gal 3:10-14

I realise that even us Christians can not keep our one Law, without the help of the indwelling Spirit of Christ. Like He said while on earth:

"Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me." Joh 15:4

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. Gal 5:22-23

Without the aid of the Holy Spirit producing these fruits in us, neither Jew nor Christian could keep this one law.

That is a very good summation of the reality. The only thing I might add to it is that the main point is that under the Old Law the moment we violate it we are condemned to death, even if that death is only spiritually which then prevents God from dealing further with us but in the way of punishment.

That highlights how it is that the New Covenant is not like the Old. The New Covenant has bought us the time to practice applying God's righteousness in our lives without fear of rejection when we stumble through our need yet to mature to his righteousness.

The Old law was given to amplify sin and therefore one who violated even one letter of that law was guilty of violating the entire law. The purpose in this was to prove that the flesh could not on it's own work out the righteousness of God. The flesh has never ever been anything but a slave and apart from a matured knowledge and wisdom of the application of God's righteousness the flesh can only be a slave of sin. Not that the nature of the flesh is to sin but that ungoverned by the spirit of God as it was designed to be governed sin's own nature will quickly attack and gain control of the body, leaving us helpless to help ourselves. That was allowed to become our situation by one man's sin which allowed sin to enter into the world where it would find presence to so attack us. Romans 5:12 And it is the nature of sin to attack us. Sin always seeks to spread itself around.

 

[JesusBeliever]

What are the wonderful works which God performed through the promised prophet like Moses? (A prophet unlike the other prophets, none of whom God spoke directly to as He did Moses.) These are what the Christian needs to be both aware of and to remember that he too not prove to lack in faith.

Thanks for the warning and wording it the way you did, coz it helps me to see more clearly how Moses prefigures Jesus, and that the Israelites under Moses prefigure Christians under Jesus, that we would make the same mistakes as they did under Moses.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

it is interesting that people say the law was done away with but they still say we should not kill or steal or commit adultery. actually the only one of the ten commandments that they really want to do away with is the one about the sabbath. and God made the sabbath a sign for His chosen people.

 

[Mountain_Climber]

Thanks for the warning and wording it the way you did, coz it helps me to see more clearly how Moses prefigures Jesus, and that the Israelites under Moses prefigure Christians under Jesus, that we would make the same mistakes as they did under Moses.

Egypt was also used in relation to Israel as an anti-type for the entire world alienated from God. In fact, that former nation of Israel was also itself an anti-type for a spiritual Israel to come by a New Covenant. And that is indeed the Church built up upon the Christ.

All of us, whether Jew or Gentile, were at one time in bondage to an anti-typical Sodom and/or Egypt of a spiritual nature before having been led out of it by the prophet greater than Moses, Jesus Christ, under a New covenant whereby God promised that he would turn the heart of the true Israelite by spirit from a heart of stone into a heart of flesh and would write his Laws upon their heart.

(Revelation11:8) “And their corpses will be on the broad way of the great city which is in a spiritual sense called Sod′om and Egypt, where their Lord was also impaled.”

At Revelation 11:8 Egypt is no more the literal nation known as Egypt than is Sodom able to be the literal land that was called Sodom. Sodom and Egypt are there used to signify the spiritual estate which this entire world would grow into.

With all that is happening in the legal systems of this world today concerning similar things as were were prevalent in the ancient Sodom, need I reveal to anyone what the spiritual estate of this world is signified to become as denoted by the Sodom? We all see it happening very quickly, by which we also are now without excuse not to know that this world has but a short time remaining. But what about the spiritual designation, Egypt? Can we see that equally as well?

While in Egypt the Israelite people were hindered for the time which they needed to serve Jehovah their God and to keep their hearts and the hearts of their children firmly rooted in faith in him. Is that the spiritual state we find fighting to inflict bondage upon us and our hearts in this world today? And is the world making continuous advancement in provisions to relieve or to worsen that problem? This world seeks to enslave us to capitalism and a sundry of other forms of idolatrous lusts of which it approves. The Israelite people in bondage to Egypt for more than 400 years were in bondage as slaves to work for their rulers to the point of little time for much else. And, being so hard pressed to slave for the rulers of Egypt, they just as many today, sought mainly to comfort their own fleshly needs when not slaving for their taskmasters. Do any of us feel that bondage tearing away at our souls? That is the modern spiritual estate of Egypt, the spiritual condition of this world which so demands of our strength, placing us in bondage to it's desires for us rather than to God's.

 

[Mountain_Climber]

it is interesting that people say the law was done away with but they still say we should not kill or steal or commit adultery. actually the only one of the ten commandments that they really want to do away with is the one about the sabbath. and God made the sabbath a sign for His chosen people.

What was done away with was the hand-written decrees written as an external inducement to the flesh to be obedient under the threat of punishment.

Our laws today in most lands are based upon that same principle of deterrence from crime via the threat of punishment. However, the Old Law proved that such an external compulsion toward obedience cannot achieve the preferable obedience out of love and respect for the course of what is right. Obedience from the love of righteousness (righteousness in a man's heart being a complete law unto itself needing no external supplementation) is preferable in that the one possessing it need not be kept tabs on by others before he or she will be sure to remain obedient. Thus if all whom God lets move forward into the promised land of the new earth are required to have this love of God's righteousness established in their hearts then it would be far less likely that anyone would move to reintroduce sin back into the world. But we know that the thousand years will be the day of judgment to test the sincerity and solidarity of that love of righteousness in people's hearts that none who would enter everlasting life at the thousand year's end would be a risk to carry sin forward into life everlasting. Thus the earth will then be free of sin forever, never to be corrupted again.

This plan of God really only makes good sense when we think it through.

That which is corruptible must put on incorporation. Now, some have unwittingly cheapened that thought by making it about losing our mortal bodies and putting on spirit bodies. But the truth is that this incorruptibility is achieved through the spiritual condition of one's heart and has nothing to do with our bodies which are but slaves of our spirit. And, as our bodies are slaves of our spirit, if our spirit be bad our bodies will be bad. But if we love God and his righteousness with our whole spirit, then our bodies will yet behave as our spirit instructs them to behave in the righteousness of God. It is then that God will joyfully restore life to our bodies in a way and to a degree we have not before known nor can imagine.

From the moment Adam brought the curse upon us of sin this has been God's plan.

There is yet a Sabbath. But just as all the anti-typical representations of that Old Law have a spiritual parallel way in which they are fulfilled by the one walking after God's spirit, so too the Sabbath. Perhaps I will speak more about that later. I am getting a bit tired for the moment and believe I would be wiser to rest.

 

[JesusBeliever]

Actually what we Jews need is for Christians like yourself, well intentioned though you may be, to stop trying to foist on us your interpretations of our sacred literature. What we Jews need is for Christians like yourself to stop seeing us as some sort of spiritual reclamation project. What we Jews need is for Christians like yourself to stop seeing Jews as spiritually ignorant and spiritually illiterate.

Well intentioned though they be, your efforts are neither welcome nor appreciated.

Is that not exactly what you are doing right now with your mocking emoticons? Do you think we Christians can't feel you looking down on us as spiritually ignorant and illiterate? Do jews not try to foist their interpretation of Scripture on us? Asking us questions and telling us we can't quote from any of the NT writers! Many of us fall for this ruse but if there is any sincerity in you at all, consider this from a Christian perspective. We Christians believe that Jesus is that Prophet that Moses spoke of in his writings, just as Jesus claimed himself to be. You telling Christians that we can't quote Jesus and His Apostles is like Christians telling Jews they can't quote Moses & the Prophets! Christians wouldn't ask that of you so why do you ask that of Christians? It is the New Testament that teaches Christians to interpret the Old Testament the way they do! And I'll be the first to admit that we are far from experts at it (feel free to laugh about that!). But when you consider Christian history and the constant attempts by their self-proclaimed leaders to keep them away from reading the Bible, at one point even killing them if one was found in their possessions, it is no wonder that we are as ignorant and illiterate as we are of our own Scriptures.

So here we are!
Why does a Jew ask a question of a Christian?
Is it to sincerely enquire whether Jesus of Nazareth was indeed that Prophet that Moses spoke of?
Or is it to expose just how ignorant we are of our own Bible so that we feel too ashamed to profess his Name, because you don't believe in Him?
If it's the latter, are you not also then guilty of what you accuse Christians of doing to Jews?
If it's the former, than are we not allowed to answer the best way we know how with the Scriptures that He has given us through his Apostles?

 

[JesusBeliever]

But notice that Jeremiah does not say that the Law would be negated. And common sense should tell anyone that if God punishes us for not obeying the Law, then why in the world would this same God turn around an negate the Law that He punished people for not obeying? That makes not one iota of sense.

There are numerous covenants within the Tanakh, so the addition of a new one doesn't mean another one is dead. Also, as an example I used on another post, if you're stopped for speeding, tell the officer that he shouldn't give you a ticket because you "fulfilled the law". Good luck with that.

Ok, let's talk about things not making an iota of sense and see how we fair shall we? Let's take Pharaoh for example. In Exodus 5:1 Moses was told to tell Pharaoh, "Let my people go that they may hold a feast unto me in the wilderness." But the Lord had already told Moses in the previous chapter that He would harden Pharaoh's heart so that he wouldn't let His people go (Exodus 4:21). Common sense would tell anyone that if God punishes us for not obeying... how does it go again?

Sorry for the seeming intolerance, but it is your second time using that ticket scenario on me and I couldn't help but feel you were quietly having a laugh at my expense. And please, rest at ease coz I ain't laughing!

 

[Mountain_Climber]

Ok, let's talk about things not making an iota of sense and see how we fair shall we? Let's take Pharaoh for example. In Exodus 5:1 Moses was told to tell Pharaoh, "Let my people go that they may hold a feast unto me in the wilderness." But the Lord had already told Moses in the previous chapter that He would harden Pharaoh's heart so that he wouldn't let His people go (Exodus 4:21). Common sense would tell anyone that if God punishes us for not obeying... how does it go again?

Sorry for the seeming intolerance, but it is your second time using that ticket scenario on me and I couldn't help but feel you were quietly having a laugh at my expense. And please, rest at ease coz I ain't laughing!

Metis' comment seems to ignore the fact that originally the covenant for a royal priesthood was the given purpose of that Old Law Covenant (Exodus 19:5, 6; Deuteronomy 28:1-14) but because of the nation's unfaithfulness to that Old Law Covenant all they proved eligible to receive from it was a cursing (Deuteronomy 28:15-68).

This is why we see that the covenant for a royal priesthood was taken from them and given to one faithful seed out of them and in accord with the manner of Melchizedek rather than in continuance of the Levitical priesthood.

The nation of Israel had paid tithes to Melchizedek while in the loins of Abraham when Abraham paid tithes to Melchizedek. One might conclude that this was in part done in advance of God's forming that that nation of Israel that he not have to create that nation only to thereafter have to completely exterminate it by reason of it's unfaithfulness.

Hebrews 7:9-10 "And, if I may use the expression, through Abraham even Le′vi who receives tithes has paid tithes, for he was still in the loins of his forefather when Mel·chiz′e·dek met him."

 

[JesusBeliever]

Metis' comment seems to ignore the fact that originally the covenant for a royal priesthood was the given purpose of that Old Law Covenant (Exodus 19:5, 6; Deuteronomy 28:1-14) but because of the nation's unfaithfulness to that Old Law Covenant all they proved eligible to receive from it was a cursing (Deuteronomy 28:15-68).

This is why we see that the covenant for a royal priesthood was taken from them and given to one faithful seed out of them and in accord with the manner of Melchizedek rather than in continuance of the Levitical priesthood.

The nation of Israel had paid tithes to Melchizedek while in the loins of Abraham when Abraham paid tithes to Melchizedek. One might conclude that this was in part done in advance of God's forming that that nation of Israel that he not have to create that nation only to thereafter have to completely exterminate it by reason of it's unfaithfulness.

Hebrews 7:9-10 "And, if I may use the expression, through Abraham even Le′vi who receives tithes has paid tithes, for he was still in the loins of his forefather when Mel·chiz′e·dek met him."

I think I hear what you're trying to say.
Sorry for my intolerance Metis.
It ain't always easy being an ignorant Christian.
If I know anything it's only coz I've been taught.

 

[metis]

Hi there, Christians are taught in the NT that the whole Law and the prophets are fulfilled in this:

"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets." Mat 7:12
Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. Rom 13:10
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Gal 5:14
If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: James 2:8

Let's just focus on this one Law for a second. We would all be forgiven for thinking, "Phew, keeping one law has gotta be easier than 10 or 613?" For many years I believed this and set about to keep this one law, only for it to hit me one day (recently) that I can't even keep this one law with out breaking it almost daily. The only days I seem to be able to keep it is when I don't interact with the other people , and even then sometimes I still break it as I find my mind and heart being tempted to think all manner of evil about my neighbour. According to Jesus, it's from out of the heart that evil proceeds:

But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: Mat 15:18-19

This realisation has helped bring me to the place where I find myself agreeing with the Apostle Paul when he says:

"What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes. Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin." Rom 3:9-20

"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith." Gal 3:10-14

I realise that even us Christians can not keep our one Law, without the help of the indwelling Spirit of Christ. Like He said while on earth:

"Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me." Joh 15:4

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. Gal 5:22-23

Without the aid of the Holy Spirit producing these fruits in us, neither Jew nor Christian could keep this one law.

I quite familiar with how most Christians take this but I do not accept it as it really defies both logic and Torah for us as Jews. However, since almost all Christians are Gentiles, the point becomes moot anyway. Torah states that the Law is "forever" and "perpetual", but that is binding only to us.