The Law

[metis]

Ok, let's talk about things not making an iota of sense and see how we fair shall we? Let's take Pharaoh for example. In Exodus 5:1 Moses was told to tell Pharaoh, "Let my people go that they may hold a feast unto me in the wilderness." But the Lord had already told Moses in the previous chapter that He would harden Pharaoh's heart so that he wouldn't let His people go (Exodus 4:21). Common sense would tell anyone that if God punishes us for not obeying... how does it go again?

Sorry for the seeming intolerance, but it is your second time using that ticket scenario on me and I couldn't help but feel you were quietly having a laugh at my expense. And please, rest at ease coz I ain't laughing!

I wasn't laughing at you but merely trying to point out how illogical the "fulfilling the Law" item is.

There is nothing in Torah that says that if we disobey one Law that we disobey all of them. Matter of fact, violating different Laws has different penalties or, in some cases, no given penalty at all. If any violation of a Law was a violation of all of them, then we should see demands by God that anyone who violates any of the 613 Laws should be stoned.

BTW, there are more commentaries in Judaism on "... and God hardened Pharaoh's heart" than any other set of verses because it really doesn't make sense if interpreted at face-value. Why would God force Pharaoh to do that since it would lead to the death of so many innocents on both sides, including children?

 

[metis]

Metis' comment seems to ignore the fact that originally the covenant for a royal priesthood was the given purpose of that Old Law Covenant (Exodus 19:5, 6; Deuteronomy 28:1-14) but because of the nation's unfaithfulness to that Old Law Covenant all they proved eligible to receive from it was a cursing (Deuteronomy 28:15-68).

This is why we see that the covenant for a royal priesthood was taken from them and given to one faithful seed out of them and in accord with the manner of Melchizedek rather than in continuance of the Levitical priesthood.

The nation of Israel had paid tithes to Melchizedek while in the loins of Abraham when Abraham paid tithes to Melchizedek. One might conclude that this was in part done in advance of God's forming that that nation of Israel that he not have to create that nation only to thereafter have to completely exterminate it by reason of it's unfaithfulness.

Hebrews 7:9-10 "And, if I may use the expression, through Abraham even Le′vi who receives tithes has paid tithes, for he was still in the loins of his forefather when Mel·chiz′e·dek met him."

Actually the priesthood still exists-- it's just not active because the Temple hasn't been rebuilt.

Also, the Mosaiic Covenant was given by God as was said to be "perpetual" and "everlasting" by God. In order to say we violated that Covenant, that would involve stereotyping Jews as being all the same, which makes no sense, plus ignoring the fact that the prophets stated that we would be judged as individuals. It would be like me insisting that all Christians are evil and have been long abandoned by God, which I don't believe btw.

Also, why would God punish us for violating the Law and then supposedly negate the Law? If it was given by God and was so important for us to keep to the point whereas violation of certain Laws carried the possibility of carrying the death penalty, what sense would it make to have God just turn around and get rid of it? Instead, what we see is that different Laws have different potential penalties, plus the prophets say we'll be judged as individuals. Nowadays, some churches now do agree that the Mosaiic Law and the Abrahamic Covenant could not be terminated without projecting God as being both a liar and a sadistic deity.

 

[JesusBeliever]

I quite familiar with how most Christians take this but I do not accept it as it really defies both logic and Torah for us as Jews. However, since almost all Christians are Gentiles, the point becomes moot anyway. Torah states that the Law is "forever" and "perpetual", but that is binding only to us.

I accept this and respect it, I really do! Whether or not I'm supposed to I don't know. It's the truth of how I feel. But in saying that, no matter how illogical my faith in Jesus may seem to others I can't deny the Name of the one who saved me! And not just once but multiple times that I just can't deny it anymore. I just can't! But thank you for giving me something I can relate to!

Sincerely

 

[metis]

I accept this and respect it, I really do! Whether or not I'm supposed to I don't know. It's the truth of how I feel. But in saying that, no matter how illogical my faith in Jesus may seem to others I can't deny the Name of the one who saved me! And not just once but multiple times that I just can't deny it anymore. I just can't! But thank you for giving me something I can relate to!

Sincerely

Thanks for this.

BTW, I am not saying or implying that your faith in Jesus is in any way illogical since you are a Christian and since I assume you're probably a gentile. In this context, Jesus' message actually becomes quite logical, imo, as he taught compassion and justice, which is what we tend to believe the Law was probably mostly about anyways.

 

[Tumah]

Is that not exactly what you are doing right now with your mocking emoticons? Do you think we Christians can't feel you looking down on us as spiritually ignorant and illiterate? Do jews not try to foist their interpretation of Scripture on us? Asking us questions and telling us we can't quote from any of the NT writers! Many of us fall for this ruse but if there is any sincerity in you at all, consider this from a Christian perspective. We Christians believe that Jesus is that Prophet that Moses spoke of in his writings, just as Jesus claimed himself to be. You telling Christians that we can't quote Jesus and His Apostles is like Christians telling Jews they can't quote Moses & the Prophets! Christians wouldn't ask that of you so why do you ask that of Christians? It is the New Testament that teaches Christians to interpret the Old Testament the way they do! And I'll be the first to admit that we are far from experts at it (feel free to laugh about that!). But when you consider Christian history and the constant attempts by their self-proclaimed leaders to keep them away from reading the Bible, at one point even killing them if one was found in their possessions, it is no wonder that we are as ignorant and illiterate as we are of our own Scriptures.

So here we are!
Why does a Jew ask a question of a Christian?
Is it to sincerely enquire whether Jesus of Nazareth was indeed that Prophet that Moses spoke of?
Or is it to expose just how ignorant we are of our own Bible so that we feel too ashamed to profess his Name, because you don't believe in Him?
If it's the latter, are you not also then guilty of what you accuse Christians of doing to Jews?
If it's the former, than are we not allowed to answer the best way we know how with the Scriptures that He has given us through his Apostles?

The reason we can freely quote Scriptures to each other is because we both accept the divinity of Scriptures, while only one of us accepts the divinity of the NT. So when you want to quote the NT, we will automatically go outside our common ground and by extension outside of any possibility for mutual agreement. That's just the nature of being a reformative religion. Islam and Baha'i have the same problems you do when wanting to argue their side with their parent religion.

 

[JesusBeliever]

I wasn't laughing at you but merely trying to point out how illogical the "fulfilling the Law" item is.

There is nothing in Torah that says that if we disobey one Law that we disobey all of them. Matter of fact, violating different Laws has different penalties or, in some cases, no given penalty at all. If any violation of a Law was a violation of all of them, then we should see demands by God that anyone who violates any of the 613 Laws should be stoned.

Are you making reference to the traditional Christian doctrine of Hell, coz if you are I don't believe in it either. And not because I haven't read the Bible and studied it many years coz I have, independently of others telling me how to interpret it. And I see too many Scriptures both in the OT & NT that tell me the traditional doctrine of Hell is not accurate. I'd be happy to join you on a new thread on this subject if you want to.

BTW, there are more commentaries in Judaism on "... and God hardened Pharaoh's heart" than any other set of verses because it really doesn't make sense if interpreted at face-value.

I trust there is and I'm glad to hear it. I personally don't have any issue with the story and if I could explain why and do it justice at the same time God knows I would certainly try. This may sound weird but the first time I read this verse about God hardening Pharaoh's heart I found comfort in it. Coz it told me that God reigns supreme over the hearts of all people whether they recognise it or not! And if He could harden hearts He could also soften them! This has helped me a lot in my life when facing painful situations. I have learned to trust His sovereign hand over everything that happens in my life. And I have learned more and more to turn to Him in prayer, repentance and forgiveness!

 

[metis]

Are you making reference to the traditional Christian doctrine of Hell, coz if you are I don't believe in it either. And not because I haven't read the Bible and studied it many years coz I have, independently of others telling me how to interpret it. And I see too many Scriptures both in the OT & NT that tell me the traditional doctrine of Hell is not accurate. I'd be happy to join you on a new thread on this subject if you want to.

I trust there is and I'm glad to hear it. I personally don't have any issue with the story and if I could explain why and do it justice at the same time God knows I would certainly try. This may sound weird but the first time I read this verse about God hardening Pharaoh's heart I found comfort in it. Coz it told me that God reigns supreme over the hearts of all people whether they recognise it or not! And if He could harden hearts He could also soften them! This has helped me a lot in my life when facing painful situations. I have learned to trust His sovereign hand over everything that happens in my life. And I have learned more and more to turn to Him in prayer, repentance and forgiveness!

I don't believe in hell either, nor heaven. If heaven exists, fine. And my general approach is more along the line of Spinoza's anyway.

Thanks for your explanations, and I'm glad that faith has helped you out much like it helped me out.

 

[JesusBeliever]

Islam and Baha'i have the same problems you do when wanting to argue their side with their parent religion.

Hi there, I really don't have any desire to argue with anyone and I'm sorry if any of my posts have given that impression. Maybe I need to do a review of them and check myself. The one you replied to I can admit I was upset and vented a bit but I'm over it now. Sorry if it offended anyone!

 

[Mountain_Climber]

Actually the priesthood still exists-- it's just not active because the Temple hasn't been rebuilt.

Also, the Mosaiic Covenant was given by God as was said to be "perpetual" and "everlasting" by God. In order to say we violated that Covenant, that would involve stereotyping Jews as being all the same, which makes no sense, plus ignoring the fact that the prophets stated that we would be judged as individuals. It would be like me insisting that all Christians are evil and have been long abandoned by God, which I don't believe btw.

Also, why would God punish us for violating the Law and then supposedly negate the Law? If it was given by God and was so important for us to keep to the point whereas violation of certain Laws carried the possibility of carrying the death penalty, what sense would it make to have God just turn around and get rid of it? Instead, what we see is that different Laws have different potential penalties, plus the prophets say we'll be judged as individuals. Nowadays, some churches now do agree that the Mosaiic Law and the Abrahamic Covenant could not be terminated without projecting God as being both a liar and a sadistic deity.

I understand exactly what you are saying and can even relate to why you would think it.

You say, "the Mosaic Covenant was given by God as was said to be "perpetual" and "everlasting" by God."

If this has been fulfilled in one faithful Messiah and that one faithful Messiah thus has those promises to share back to ones among us who prove to have right hearts, is that not "perpetual"? Is that not "everlasting"? Actually this is an undeserved kindness that these promises would even be made able to be shared back to us. Let us understand and show appreciation.

Exodus 19:5 "Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine.."

Who is the "ye" there at Exodus 19:5 ? if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant

It is the nation of flesh. It is not individuals of the nation individually but the nation as a whole (a people).

The point being that we were not qualifying for this privilege individually but collectively as one nation dedicated to God for his use and service.

It is about an entire kingdom. Not about you or I as individuals.

 

[Tumah]

I understand exactly what you are saying and can even relate to why you would think it.

You say, "the Mosaic Covenant was given by God as was said to be "perpetual" and "everlasting" by God." If this has been fulfilled in one faithful Messiah and that one faithful Messiah thus has those promises to share back to ones among us who prove to have right hearts, is that not "perpetual"? Is that not "everlasting"? Actually this is an undeserved kindness that these promises would even be made able to be shared back to us. Let us understand and show appreciation.

Exodus 19:5 "Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine.."

Who is the "ye" there at Exodus 19:5 ? if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant

It is the nation of flesh. It is not individuals of the nation individually but the nation as a whole (a people).

The emboldened are not words that make sense in the context they are being spoken.

 

[JesusBeliever]

I don't believe in hell either, nor heaven. If heaven exists, fine. And my general approach is more along the line of Spinoza's anyway.

Could you give a little summary of Spinoza coz while I believe in Heaven, it's more and more becoming unlike the heaven I grew up hearing about. I won't go into details but let's just say I'm not waiting to die anymore to enter it. I personally think it's closer to earth than we've been led to believe.

Thanks for your explanations, and I'm glad that faith has helped you out much like it helped me out.

I'm glad for you too!

 

[Mountain_Climber]

The emboldened are not words that make sense in the context they are being spoken.

The point being that we were not qualifying for this privilege individually but collectively as one nation dedicated to God for his use and service. It is about an entire kingdom. Not about you or I as individuals. The fleshly nation proved to disrespect that covenant. The fleshly nation lost all right to that covenant having failed to uphold it's obligation under the contract.

It is now time to be grateful that the promises can yet be shared back to us as individuals even though not as a peculiar fleshly nation.

 

[Tumah]

The point being that we were not qualifying for this privilege individually but collectively as one nation dedicated to God for his use and service. It is about an entire kingdom. Not about you or I as individuals. The fleshly nation proved to disrespect that covenant. The fleshly nation lost all right to that covenant having failed to uphold it's obligation under the contract.

That doesn't seem like the point at all. You were making apoint about how the law can somehow be fulfilled in a person and that would constitute its perpetuality. I am pointing out that those words make no sense. A law is a rule that regulates action. It doesn't find fulfillment in a person, a person fulfills its strictures. That is the nature of laws.
The idea that you are presenting in this post is not found anywhere in Scriptures: there are no verses indicating that lack of fulfillment of the Law would lead to the Jewish people losing their rights with regards to the any of the covenants.

 

[Mountain_Climber]

That doesn't seem like the point at all. You were making apoint about how the law can somehow be fulfilled in a person and that would constitute its perpetuality. I am pointing out that those words make no sense. A law is a rule that regulates action. It doesn't find fulfillment in a person, a person fulfills its strictures. That is the nature of laws.
The idea that you are presenting in this post is not found anywhere in Scriptures: there are no verses indicating that lack of fulfillment of the Law would lead to the Jewish people losing their rights with regards to the any of the covenants.

Really? The idea that the Covenant was to the nation as a whole rather than selectively to it's individuals cannot be found anywhere in Scripture?

Have you not heard though the Messiah confirmed what the prophets told you?

Matthew 21:43 "Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."

Do you really think Yeshua was speaking what he did not know?

Perhaps it is you who has not heard the prophets for the echo of your own preferred views speaking louder than they?

Has God not many times punished the nation as a whole for sin? Did that mean that all in the nation had engaged in that sin with their fellow? What about Elijah and those like him?

Tumah, the Law Covenant given through Moses was a contract to the fleshly nation as one body and dependent upon the fleshly nation as a whole honoring their part in that contract with God. This is why the fleshly nation was punished over and over collectively as one body.

Deuteronomy 10:12-13 "And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul, To keep the commandments of the LORD, and his statutes, which I command thee this day for thy good?"

Who is Israel there at Deuteronomy 10:12-13? Is that the individual people or is it the nation?

Here is what the Covenant entered through Moses was looking for, Tumah: Isaiah 58:1-2 "Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and shew my people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins. Yet they seek me daily, and delight to know my ways, as a nation that did righteousness, and forsook not the ordinance of their God: they ask of me the ordinances of justice; they take delight in approaching to God."

Is Israel's failure to maintain obedience a shame to them? Not in relation to any other nation of this world, Tumah. For, no nation of flesh has shown itself to be capable of achieving such complete obedience to God. Only a spiritual nation would be able to do so. And insofar as national groups in the flesh are concerned, not one is a spiritual nation wherein all members love and obey God from hearts filled with accurate knowledge of God's righteousness and unbreakable love for that righteousness.

Why is it that God is working to build a nation that as a whole (as one body) obeys him and observes his righteousness flawlessly? It is because only such a nation would be capable of ruling this world in righteousness. Only such a nation would be able to spread that righteousness earth-wide.

Honestly Tumah, what fleshly nation do you see that could fit that bill? There are none. And this is why such a holy nation has to be one created special of God as a spiritual nation put together by God of the choicest fruit of mankind as a whole.

The fleshly church which our physical eyes can see is not that spiritual nation either, Tumah. The fleshly church that we see is but a house yet of the flesh wherein God works out the spirtual seed he desires for his holy nation. And so when Peter says, "Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 2:5), Peter is not speaking of the church (aka, congregation of God) we see with our eyes but of the church he knows is there within that God is yet building. And that is the spiritual nation which will be able to rule this world in God's righteousness. It is a spiritual house, the true house of Israel.

 

[metis]

I understand exactly what you are saying and can even relate to why you would think it.

You say, "the Mosaic Covenant was given by God as was said to be "perpetual" and "everlasting" by God."

If this has been fulfilled in one faithful Messiah and that one faithful Messiah thus has those promises to share back to ones among us who prove to have right hearts, is that not "perpetual"? Is that not "everlasting"? Actually this is an undeserved kindness that these promises would even be made able to be shared back to us. Let us understand and show appreciation.

Exodus 19:5 "Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine.."

Who is the "ye" there at Exodus 19:5 ? if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant

It is the nation of flesh. It is not individuals of the nation individually but the nation as a whole (a people).

The point being that we were not qualifying for this privilege individually but collectively as one nation dedicated to God for his use and service.

It is about an entire kingdom. Not about you or I as individuals.

One can only "fulfill the Law" by obeying the entire Law and, as Tumah stated, there simply is no precedent in Tanakh for a single person to "fulfill the Law" for everyone else. Just because one person may keep the Law, that doesn't mean I get a free ride. Even though the Law was given to all Jews, the prophets told us that we will be judged as individuals. Do you believe they're wrong?

Also, I return back to the question as to why would God give us the Law, punish us if we didn't follow it carefully enough, and then suddenly announce the the Law is null and void and that we can be "saved" by believing that a certain man was the Messiah? That would be one mean and seriously schizophrenic deity to punish us the way he did and then turn around and say it really wasn't important after all. Either the Law was important or it wasn't, and if one believes that it really wasn't, then they should just take out their Bible, rip out the entire "O.T.", and throw it in the garbage.

I have to leave shortly, so here's a link to an article on Baruch Spinoza, so if you read it and have questions we can maybe discuss this tomorrow: Baruch Spinoza - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[metis]

Really? The idea that the Covenant was to the nation as a whole rather than selectively to it's individuals cannot be found anywhere in Scripture?

Have you not heard though the Messiah confirmed what the prophets told you?

Matthew 21:43 "Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."

Do you really think Yeshua was speaking what he did not know?

Perhaps it is you who has not heard the prophets for the echo of your own preferred views speaking louder than they?

Has God not many times punished the nation as a whole for sin? Did that mean that all in the nation had engaged in that sin with their fellow? What about Elijah and those like him?

Tumah, the Law Covenant given through Moses was a contract to the fleshly nation as one body and dependent upon the fleshly nation as a whole honoring their part in that contract with God. This is why the fleshly nation was punished over and over collectively as one body.

Deuteronomy 10:12-13 "And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul, To keep the commandments of the LORD, and his statutes, which I command thee this day for thy good?"

Who is Israel there at Deuteronomy 10:12-13? Is that the individual people or is it the nation?

Here is what the Covenant entered through Moses was looking for, Tumah: Isaiah 58:1-2 "Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and shew my people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins. Yet they seek me daily, and delight to know my ways, as a nation that did righteousness, and forsook not the ordinance of their God: they ask of me the ordinances of justice; they take delight in approaching to God."

Is Israel's failure to maintain obedience a shame to them? Not in relation to any other nation of this world, Tumah. For, no nation of flesh has shown itself to be capable of achieving such complete obedience to God. Only a spiritual nation would be able to do so. And insofar as national groups in the flesh are concerned, not one is a spiritual nation wherein all members love and obey God from hearts filled with accurate knowledge of God's righteousness and unbreakable love for that righteousness.

Why is it that God is working to build a nation that as a whole (as one body) obeys him and observes his righteousness flawlessly? It is because only such a nation would be capable of ruling this world in righteousness. Only such a nation would be able to spread that righteousness earth-wide.

Honestly Tumah, what fleshly nation do you see that could fit that bill? There are none. And this is why such a holy nation has to be one created special of God as a spiritual nation put together by God of the choicest fruit of mankind as a whole.

The fleshly church which our physical eyes can see is not that spiritual nation either, Tumah. The fleshly church that we see is but a house yet of the flesh wherein God works out the spirtual seed he desires for his holy nation. And so when Peter says, "Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 2:5), Peter is not speaking of the church (aka, congregation of God) we see with our eyes but of the church he knows is there within that God is yet building. And that is the spiritual nation which will be able to rule this world in God's righteousness. It is a spiritual house, the true house of Israel.

Citing the Christian scriptures as being a source we should agree with isn't really going to work, especially since that's what is under contention.

 

[Mountain_Climber]

One can only "fulfill the Law" by obeying the entire Law and, as Tumah stated, there simply is no precedent in Tanakh for a single person to "fulfill the Law" for everyone else. Just because one person may keep the Law, that doesn't mean I get a free ride. Even though the Law was given to all Jews, the prophets told us that we will be judged as individuals. Do you believe they're wrong?

Also, I return back to the question as to why would God give us the Law, punish us if we didn't follow it carefully enough, and then suddenly announce the the Law is null and void and that we can be "saved" by believing that a certain man was the Messiah? That would be one mean and seriously schizophrenic deity to punish us the way he did and then turn around and say it really wasn't important after all. Either the Law was important or it wasn't, and if one believes that it really wasn't, then they should just take out their Bible, rip out the entire "O.T.", and throw it in the garbage.

I have to leave shortly, so here's a link to an article on Baruch Spinoza, so if you read it and have questions we can maybe discuss this tomorrow: Baruch Spinoza - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Until later then.

 

[Ken Brown]

I came across this:

"Some Christians believe that they should keep old covenant observances such as the weekly and annual Sabbaths. A person is a "true Christian" only if he or she observes Sabbaths and certain other old covenant requirements. But the truth is that these old worship regulations are not required today, and it is legalistic to teach that people must obey those rules in order to be accounted worthy of salvation."

That is a popular argument for why Christians don't observe those Laws...

Why does that paragraph say the things that it says? First the Bible commanded us to keep 613 Commandments. Where is the prophecy in the "Old Testament" that says those Laws would someday be invalid or no longer required?

So, basically, Christians believe: For example: the Mr. Smith was born 30 B.C.E. He lived a good life before the birth of the Savior and observed those Laws with all his ability. Somewhere around 34 C.E. he no longer had to observe them (for whatever reason.

True? At what exact point in history did those Laws become invalid? What Bible verses in the "Old Testament" prove this?

This cannot be proven. In fact, the opposite is true since there are a dozen or more prophesies about the Law being and standing for ever.
[Zecharyah was written in 520 B.C.E.]
Zechariah 14:18-19 says that the heathen will be forced to observe and travel to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. This prophesy has never been fulfilled, nor has there ever been circumstances that even remotely resembled it.

Why would Yahweh force all people to observe a Feast that is no longer valid, and has no purpose? Why would Yahweh force people to be "legalistic?"

Also, I must point out that the prophecy is that Yahweh will force the heathen to keep the Feast. Does this mean that the Christians are keeping it already voluntarily? Or, does it mean that the Feast of Tabernacles will be a part of Hell?

[FYI I observe the Feast of Tabernacles Deut. 12:5-6]

Shalom Mattithyah, good for you. I do have a question. It states that Feast of Sukkot is to be only observed ONLY in the PLACE that HaShem chooses to place His Name:

D'varim (Deuteronomy 16)

11 And thou shalt rejoice before HaShem thy G-d, thou, and thy son, and thy daughter, and thy man-servant, and thy maid-servant, and the Levite that is within they gates, and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, that are in the midst of thee, in the place which HaShem thy G-d shall choose to cause His name to dwell there.

15 Seven days shalt thou keep a feast unto HaShem thy G-d in the place which HaShem shall choose; because HaShem thy G-d shall bless thee in all thine increase, and in all the work of thy hands, and thou shalt be altogether joyful.

16 Three times in a year shall all thy males appear before HaShem thy G-d in the place which He shall choose; on the feast of unleavened bread, and on the feast of weeks, and on the feast of tabernacles; and they shall not appear before HaShem empty;

And it appears that the PLACE that HaShem causes His Name to dwell is IN Jerusalem, in the PLACE that He chooses to place His Name:

Malachim II (Kings 2)

4 And he built altars in the house of HaShem, whereof HaShem said: 'In Jerusalem will I put My name.'

So my question to you is: Do you go to Jerusalem each year to celebrate the Feast of Sukkot?

Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

 

[Tumah]

Really? The idea that the Covenant was to the nation as a whole rather than selectively to it's individuals cannot be found anywhere in Scripture?

Actually, what I was saying was that when Scriptures uses phrases about the perpetuity of the Law, you can't explain that as meaning it is fulfilled in a person, because those words make no sense. I law is not fulfilled in a person. A person fulfills a low. So what Scriptures is saying is that the Law itself will never be abolished. It is perpetual.
However, with regards to this new idea that you are suggesting, since the nation as a whole is made up of its parts, I would say that the Covenant is binding both on the individual and on the nation as a whole. And in fact we do find Scriptures bouncing back and forth between the singular and plural.

Have you not heard though the Messiah confirmed what the prophets told you?

No, I have not. It would be hard for me to hear what the Messiah has said, since he has not yet come to say it.

Matthew 21:43 "Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."

Do you really think Yeshua was speaking what he did not know?

Yes, obviously. Or rather, he was just making it up as other Jewish false messiahs have been wont to do.

Perhaps it is you who has not heard the prophets for the echo of your own preferred views speaking louder than they?

Can you back up that claim with Scripture?

Has God not many times punished the nation as a whole for sin? Did that mean that all in the nation had engaged in that sin with their fellow? What about Elijah and those like him?

Tumah, the Law Covenant given through Moses was a contract to the fleshly nation as one body and dependent upon the fleshly nation as a whole honoring their part in that contract with God. This is why the fleshly nation was punished over and over collectively as one body.

It kind of feels that by using the word "fleshy" you are introducing a dichotomy that is not found in Scriptures.
The nation is not only punished collectively. Sometimes individuals are punished. Sometimes a collective is punished. Sometimes everybody is. It depends on the circumstances.

Deuteronomy 10:12-13 "And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul, To keep the commandments of the LORD, and his statutes, which I command thee this day for thy good?"

Who is Israel there at Deuteronomy 10:12-13? Is that the individual people or is it the nation?

Both. Each individual must keep all the commandments in order that the nation as a whole be said to be keeping the commandments.

Here is what the Covenant entered through Moses was looking for, Tumah: Isaiah 58:1-2 "Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and shew my people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins. Yet they seek me daily, and delight to know my ways, as a nation that did righteousness, and forsook not the ordinance of their God: they ask of me the ordinances of justice; they take delight in approaching to God."

Is Israel's failure to maintain obedience a shame to them? Not in relation to any other nation of this world, Tumah. For, no nation of flesh has shown itself to be capable of achieving such complete obedience to God. Only a spiritual nation would be able to do so. And insofar as national groups in the flesh are concerned, not one is a spiritual nation wherein all members love and obey God from hearts filled with accurate knowledge of God's righteousness and unbreakable love for that righteousness.

There is no such thing as a spiritual nation. Its a term you made up to fit your replacement theology into the Scriptures. The fact is that G-d Himself warns us numerous times what the punishment will be for breaking the Covenant. He even goes so far as to predict that we will do so (Deut. 31:29). But never does the decreed punishment include permanently forsaking Israel. Check Deut. 28:15 until the end. Look at how far we would be persecuted in retribution for breaking the covenant. But we are never punished to be permanently set aside. Look again in Deut. 29:9 until the end. Again we are warned what will happen when we break the covenant. And what does Deut. 30:1 say? After all the curses of chapter 29, it is prophesied that we will likewise return to G-d, not foresaken. And that is the theme all through Scriptures. Israel sins, G-d punishes with suffering of some sort. Israel comes back. Israel sins...
The cycle doesn't end with G-d throwing us aside. The cycle ends with G-d removing the problem that caused the cycle.
We were after all not chosen on our own merits, (Deut. 10:15), why should we be un-chosen on our demerits?

Why is it that God is working to build a nation that as a whole (as one body) obeys him and observes his righteousness flawlessly? It is because only such a nation would be capable of ruling this world in righteousness. Only such a nation would be able to spread that righteousness earth-wide.

Honestly Tumah, what fleshly nation do you see that could fit that bill? There are none. And this is why such a holy nation has to be one created special of God as a spiritual nation put together by God of the choicest fruit of mankind as a whole.

Your question is misleading. G-d is not working to build a nation that as a whole obeys him and observes his righteousness flawlessly. G-d just wants us to keep trying. That is why the righteous person is not the one who obeys G-d flawlessly, but the one who picks himself up and tries again (Pro. 24:16). A third of the sacrificial system instituted by G-d, is based on the idea of fixing your mistake and trying again.
Becoming the flawlessly righteous is a present that we will receive from G-d in the Messianic Age. Not something that is expected from us now.

The fleshly church which our physical eyes can see is not that spiritual nation either, Tumah. The fleshly church that we see is but a house yet of the flesh wherein God works out the spirtual seed he desires for his holy nation. And so when Peter says, "Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 2:5), Peter is not speaking of the church (aka, congregation of God) we see with our eyes but of the church he knows is there within that God is yet building. And that is the spiritual nation which will be able to rule this world in God's righteousness. It is a spiritual house, the true house of Israel.

I'm Jewish. I don't go to church, I go to synagogue.

 

[Mountain_Climber]

Actually, what I was saying was that when Scriptures uses phrases about the perpetuity of the Law, you can't explain that as meaning it is fulfilled in a person, because those words make no sense. I law is not fulfilled in a person. A person fulfills a low. So what Scriptures is saying is that the Law itself will never be abolished. It is perpetual.
However, with regards to this new idea that you are suggesting, since the nation as a whole is made up of its parts, I would say that the Covenant is binding both on the individual and on the nation as a whole. And in fact we do find Scriptures bouncing back and forth between the singular and plural.

You are hearing only what you want to hear but not hearing what you are told. Fulfilling the Law means to satisfy the righteous requirements of the Law and that has to be done by all who will be granted life in God's kingdom which he has been preparing to rule this earth. Even Paul agrees with that and speaks of it at Romans 8:3-4.

You are right that those in Christendom whom claim no obligation to the righteousness of that Law have been misled and blinded. In fact you can rightly blame a large portion of that on hideous false doctrines like that of an inherited sin nature. Such false doctrines stop up would-be Christian eyes and ears. And because the prevalence is so great of would-be Christians you have seldom gotten to meet a genuine Christian. The ones you have met have left you empty as they really had nothing but non-sense to fill you with and you were too smart to gulp it down.

No, I have not. It would be hard for me to hear what the Messiah has said, since he has not yet come to say it.

Yes, obviously. Or rather, he was just making it up as other Jewish false messiahs have been wont to do.

Understandably that is your opinion. But one's opinion is no more accurate than the information they have been fed. That fact alone is good reason to be humble about by being willing always to reconsider one's opinion. You do not know that an angel may be speaking to you while you go about rejecting all opinions without really investigating any but your own.

Can you back up that claim with Scripture?

I said, "Perhaps", perhaps that is what you are doing. I cannot necessarily prove from scripture anything you are doing.

In the case of those who are really willing to listen and think on it, I can prove from Scripture the truth of what Jesus said at Matthew 21:43. If I couldn't then neither would I believe what Jesus said. So the fact that I believe Jesus means I have already proved the truth of what he said to myself for my own benefit. But whether or not I can prove it to you depends on the willingness of your heart to look into it. I can share Scripture but it is up to you how you will interpret Scripture.

It kind of feels that by using the word "fleshy" you are introducing a dichotomy that is not found in Scriptures.
The nation is not only punished collectively. Sometimes individuals are punished. Sometimes a collective is punished. Sometimes everybody is. It depends on the circumstances.

No, that is not so. True wisdom is a spirit received only of God. Exodus 28:3; Exodus 31:3

There is another form of wisdom according to the world's definition of wisdom but it being born of the flesh trying to direct it's own steps, that wisdom is insufficient to protect it's bearer or produce any real lasting benefit. That wisdom is falsely called wisdom.

Both. Each individual must keep all the commandments in order that the nation as a whole be said to be keeping the commandments.

That does not change the fact that the scriptures I showed you clearly show that the Mosaic Law Covenant was with the nation as a whole. And because it is an entire holy nation that God is seeking after and only a remnant of the former flesh and blood nation of Israel will ever meet his holy qualifications God has turned to the nations to collect the rest of the number he needs to complete his desired holy nation. And it he will exalt with dominion over all flesh.

There is no such thing as a spiritual nation. Its a term you made up to fit your replacement theology into the Scriptures. The fact is that G-d Himself warns us numerous times what the punishment will be for breaking the Covenant. He even goes so far as to predict that we will do so (Deut. 31:29). But never does the decreed punishment include permanently forsaking Israel. Check Deut. 28:15 until the end. Look at how far we would be persecuted in retribution for breaking the covenant. But we are never punished to be permanently set aside. Look again in Deut. 29:9 until the end. Again we are warned what will happen when we break the covenant. And what does Deut. 30:1 say? After all the curses of chapter 29, it is prophesied that we will likewise return to G-d, not foresaken. And that is the theme all through Scriptures. Israel sins, G-d punishes with suffering of some sort. Israel comes back. Israel sins...
The cycle doesn't end with G-d throwing us aside. The cycle ends with G-d removing the problem that caused the cycle.
We were after all not chosen on our own merits, (Deut. 10:15), why should we be un-chosen on our demerits?

You are right that in the flesh there is no spiritual nation, aka, no nation as a whole motivated and living completely by the spirit of God.

I knew you would not be able to point to any, not even modern Israel. But that is precisely why God is making one of peoples he had not formerly known: Isaiah 55:5a "Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, ..."

Your question is misleading. G-d is not working to build a nation that as a whole obeys him and observes his righteousness flawlessly. G-d just wants us to keep trying. That is why the righteous person is not the one who obeys G-d flawlessly, but the one who picks himself up and tries again (Pro. 24:16). A third of the sacrificial system instituted by G-d, is based on the idea of fixing your mistake and trying again.
Becoming the flawlessly righteous is a present that we will receive from G-d in the Messianic Age. Not something that is expected from us now.


I'm Jewish. I don't go to church, I go to synagogue.

It is a righteous act to pick one's self up and keep trying when one falls but that only makes that act right. It takes much more than that to qualify as a righteous man. In fact it takes much more than just the working of righteousness. It takes a god-like love and respect for righteousness as the driving force behind the works. And that is what God requires of those whom he will appoint the dominion over this earth. No nation which lacks that will be used by him.