Nice. Equitable distribution of the $$$ so you can start it up in your area. Then when everyone has to buy kosher, you'll get even more $$$ to expand your market.
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The Law
- Thread starter Mattithyah
- Start date
Stop whining and make your own then. It's your law and thus your problem. Don't expect the rest of us to supply it to you as we don't need it.
I love your thinking. The numbers are lower because it's spread over 300+ million consumers in the US. Tell us what the numbers would be when the market is lowered to maybe 1 million Orthodox? Just like you complain when you and flankerl can't find a kosher option, I can complain when I don't have a non-kosher option. See, it works both ways. Tell you what, write a letter to a corporation and ask them how much they pay to the kosher certifying organization. Then get back to us. My bet is that they won't tell you.
roger1440
I do stuff
The point I was trying to make was the author of Hebrews took 1 Samuel 15:22 way out of context. The author would have only been able to convince Jews that did not know there scripture.
You have the same Bible sitting in front of you as the rest of us. What does 1 Samuel 15:22 mean? Please no huge paragraphs, life is short.
rosends
Well-Known Member
No, not only is the price lower because it is spread across more units for sale and the relative ease of the process as it relates to water, but the price is spread across a large number of people who aren't orthodox who choose supervised foods. Notice that neither flanker1 nor I complains when we can't find food. We grow up and deal with it. Now, tell you what -- why don't you write a letter of complaint asking a corporation the costs. It interest you. I provided the data I found, the options I found (for you) and the real facts. You don't want to hear it -- you only want to complain.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
in review.....
I see the one animal is released into the wilderness....
and it bears the iniquities of the people...a scapegoat.
If sin cannot be transferred.....then what good is a scapegoat.
It would bear nothing.
(Christian faith leans heavy the bearing of sin....upon the Lamb of God)
I don't lean to dogma.
I believe my transgressions are my own.
judgment follows...
Mountain_Climber
Active Member
Judging by David's explanation of it in Psalms 51:16-19, 1 Samuel 15:22 means exactly what it sounds on the surface like it means. Those were not the kind of sacrifices God was after but were mere pictures of the kind of sacrifices he was after. And so one could obey in presenting those sacrifices and yet not please God in the physical act of doing so if they thought the sacrifices itself was all that was necessary to appease God as regards their sins.
It boils down to something else Saul said which is completely true, "the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound learning." 1 Timothy 1:9-10
If anyone imagines that God is a God that rules by a list of written rules rather than by love of the course of every right thing in hearts made after his image, then they do not know God. Written codes are indeed for the lawless.
Before God began giving that Law to them, the people had showed their tendency to be forgetful of Him and thus engaged in sin more than once on more than one occasion. It only makes sense then that those Laws were given to the people to deal with that pattern of forgetfulness and sin they had demonstrated.
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JesusBeliever
Active Member
Hi there,
Do people today (whether Jew or Christian) believe that God speaks to us today?
Coz if they don't, herein lies the problem in interpreting verses like 1 Samuel 15:22:
For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness: Psalms 95:7-8
While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. Hebrews 3:15
I was shocked when I found this verse recently coz it was as if I had never read it.
"And he called the name of the place Massah, and Meribah, because of the chiding of the children of Israel, and because they tempted the LORD, saying, Is the LORD among us, or not?" Exo 17:7
And I had to confess that I've been guilty of it many times, but no more! How about you? (generally speaking)
If I may answer this question with a question?
Do people today (whether Jew or Christian) believe that God speaks to us today?
Coz if they don't, herein lies the problem in interpreting verses like 1 Samuel 15:22:
For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness: Psalms 95:7-8
While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. Hebrews 3:15
I was shocked when I found this verse recently coz it was as if I had never read it.
"And he called the name of the place Massah, and Meribah, because of the chiding of the children of Israel, and because they tempted the LORD, saying, Is the LORD among us, or not?" Exo 17:7
And I had to confess that I've been guilty of it many times, but no more! How about you? (generally speaking)
JesusBeliever
Active Member
Hi there,
"And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:" Lev 16:21
Ours does yes:
"And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:" Lev 16:21
rosends
Well-Known Member
If sin WAS transferred, then that "scapegoat" is not sacrificed and therefore your conclusion has to be the there is no need for a sacrifice to get rid of sin. The animal is a representation of "sending away sin" but not a literal carrier of those sins away. The symbolic removal inspires people to perform a similar, literal, removal of sins in their own lives. If Christian faith sees this as literal, shouldn't it be the goat of God?
rosends
Well-Known Member
and where does that say anything about sacrifice? "send him away" doesn't mean "kill." So the sins are out there, wandering around, eating stuff and scampering up mountains.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
JesusBeliever
Active Member
Yes, but were not both goats for a sin offering?
"And he shall take of the congregation of the children of Israel two kids of the goats for a sin offering, and one ram for a burnt offering." Lev 16:5
Flankerl
Well-Known Member
The food industry is against it. Though that is probably inconceivable for you.
Except of course that we can't force the food industry to comply to our demands. Yeah crazy world.
Also I am not whining. I use what I can and live kosher. You are the one whining.
You honestly believe that I get money from the ZOG. Wow.
rosends
Well-Known Member
No. He takes two goats, one of which will be for a singular sin offering. The lots confirm that only one is a sin offering (verse 9). Since either could end up being the sin offering, the verse says he takes two to fill that one spot. A Chatat, sin offering is a sacrifice on the altar. The goat for azazel is not offered as a sacrifice on the altar so it is not a chatat. The explanation in verses 20-22 never calls it a sin offering.
roger1440
I do stuff
We cannot expect rite (ritual) results using the wrong means. The problem wasn’t what was offered to God, the problem was how it was obtained. I’ll explain it as simple as possible by using an example.
In the United States each year a day is put aside to honor our mothers. It falls on the second Sunday in May. Many of us give flowers to our mothers. It’s a way of saying, “thanks mom for all you have done for me”. Many Americans go out of their way to find the choicest of flowers. They seek the most colorful, fragrant, attractive bouquet they can find to offer their mother. If a person wrongly obtained the flowers, let’s say they stole the flowers, this gift has fall less value. This is exactly the problem Samuel had with Saul. The problem wasn’t what was offered to God, the problem was where they got it from.
“20 “But I did obey the Lord,” Saul said. “I went on the mission the Lord assigned me. I completely destroyed the Amalekites and brought back Agag their king. 21 The soldiers took sheep and cattle from the plunder, the best of what was devoted to God, in order to sacrifice them to the Lord your God at Gilgal.”” (1 Samuel 15:20-21)
Saul’s mission was to destroy the Amalekites. This means not only to kill the Amalekites, but also destroy their homes, property, livestock, etc. The goal is to completely destroy their memory from the face of the planet. Everything associated with the Amalekites would be erased. It would be as if they never were. Saul’s offering came from the plunder. Something he should have never done. The problem wasn’t what he offered; the problem was where he got it from. Same thing with Mother’s Day, one must give from the heart and not simply go through the motions.
Samuel’s message is, what is right is much more important than any rite (ritual). That is not the same as saying the rite has no importance that is message in Hebrews chapter 10. The author of Hebrews took Samuel’s message way out of context. As I said before, it would only work with ignorant Jews.
Mountain_Climber
Active Member
Work on that some more.
You are speaking by your own opinion but not seeing the full picture.
You say: "The problem wasn’t what he offered; the problem was where he got it from. Same thing with Mother’s Day, one must give from the heart and not simply go through the motions."
The underlined part is what I have been saying. The first part while true was not what Samuel's point was. Samuel's point was addressed to Saul's belief that he was giving his best when he was not. That Saul said, “But I did obey the Lord”, supports that conclusion.
You will never really know if you agree with anything I say until you give what i say a fair chance, which you are not doing because you are too busy looking to find fault. But all you are accomplishing is a fudging of perspective. And you deserve to do better for yourself.
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No you're the one that posted that. Did you forget? I just posted about the distribution of $$$.
BTW, you and rosends could have these guys move to your area, They seem to be the GEICO of kosher as they mimic GEICO's slogan. Give the rabbi a call. He needs $$$. It seems that it's a competitive market amongst rabbis for $$$ involved or else there wouldn't be so many involved in slicing up the revenue stream from kosher. This one offers a 15%+ discount.
How Kosher Certification Works
Thank you for your interest in Earth Kosher. We offer affordable kosher certification services to small mom-and-pop’s and start-up’s all the way to large international companies. We’re often asked about the cost of certification and the technical requirements that are required for our services. There are many specifics to your company that influence cost: operations, ingredients, products, and logistics all relate. With Earth Kosher though, one phone call and 15 minutes could save you a lot lot more than 15% on an annual basis when compared to other agencies!
Wow. Costly supervision??? I thought it was miniscule.
Ingredients that can be easily obtained in Kosher and non-Kosher varieties (i.e. glycerin, vinegar, cheese, wine, oils, flavors, etc.) are deemed highly sensitive by kosher certification standards. The use of these ingredients will require more intensive and hence costly supervision by our organization, than foods that contain ingredients that are generally assumed to be Kosher or are almost always Kosher in practice.
There's no corporation that will tell you. It's been tried before. I guess they're too embarrassed.
The thing is there would be no kosher products, except for your religious requirements. I'm the consumer and I don't need kosher. I don't need to go out of my way to buy stuff on line or move as you suggested so that you can meet your religious obligations. Do you think it's fair that I have to pay for it? Of course you do as your posts and flankerl posts verify it over and over.
It's your religious requirement. You either pay for it or offer it for free. Free would solve all the problems. That will never happen.
rosends
Well-Known Member
yes...no one will tell you
http://www.howmuchisit.org/kosher-certification-cost/
and this from Snopes, "Does certification add to the price of a product? Certainly, but the amount is miniscule, especially compared to the advertising, packaging, shipping, research, testing, admin and finance-related costs, and a myriad of other components that contribute to the process of bringing a product to market or making it better appeal to consumers. One might as well rail against the costs associated with selecting the ink colors and style of lettering used on a package — it's all legitimate business expense, even though no one ever rails against the "Secret Red Ink Conspiracy" or rants about the "Helvetica Font Tax."
Remember, the other stats I provided show that the cost per item is 65 millionth of a cent per item for General Foods.
You are really going to hate what these people say...
http://www.sealk.org/kosher-certification-cost/
"When you add kosher certification to your products, chances are your consumers will not pay a penny more.
Just as you would not find it necessary to pass on the cost of commissioning a third party chemical food analysis, basic insurance, or other similar service to your customer, kosher certification cost does not generally affect pricing decisions.
In fact, mass producers often find that kosher actually lowers the cost per unit by increasing sales. And many Seal-K companies who add kosher certification report that they find it easier to place their product with new retailers and thus reach more market share."
The numbers don't seem to bear out your complaints. But I'll let you get in as many final words as you want. Facts have no effect on you -- you seem to wallow in the complaining so, have at it.