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The limits of "reality"

Orbit

I'm a planet
Here in Mysticism DIR, I often see the question "How do you know it's real?" meaning the mystic experience. I view it like this: How do I know what an orange tastes like? My senses tell me. And then comes the question "what if your senses are fooling you?". This brings all of reality, not just mystic experience into question. Everything I experience is an artifact of my senses. If I can't trust my senses, then how do I get along from day to day, because for all practical purposes (barring mental illness or brain tumor) I CAN trust my senses for most purposes.

We don't question the reality of the computer keyboards we're typing on. We see them. We feel them. I don't think it's reasonable to hold mystic experience to a higher standard of "reality" than we give the rest of the world around us. And as any physicist would point out, "reality" depends on the level of analysis you're on. On one level, the table you're sitting at is "real". On another, it's rapidly vibrating molecules. Just because we can look at the same thing on different levels, does it mean one of them isn't "real"?
 

lovesong

:D
Premium Member
Descartes talks about this in his Meditations on First Philosophy. The First Meditation within it discusses how we must question everything. What can we assume is true? Descartes says first that we can trust our senses but then takes that back by saying his senses are often tricked by dreams. He says that we can therefore only trust the basic elements of thing (form and color for example), because even the false things in his dreams are made of true elements. He then thinks about this further and questions whether even that can be taken as wholly true. He examines the relationship between our senses and the divine, saying that in the presence of a perfect divine force, that force would either trick our senses or make it so that everything we perceived was true. We know the latter isn't true, so in the presence of a perfect divine force, we must question even our basic senses and perceptions. He says that this remains true with the lack of a perfect divine force as well, since if our consciousness was not created by a perfect entity then our consciousness has imperfections as well, so we must question everything in search of these imperfections.
Basically what I'm saying is that we should absolutely question our mystic experiences, but we should question our mundane experiences as well. Deception could occur in any realm of existence. We must therefore either accept everything we encounter as truth and ignore any possible falsities, or question everything if we want to remain consistent in our approach to life. I agree that we shouldn't necessarily scrutinize our mystic experiences and not our mundane ones, but I definitely see benefit to questioning our experiences as a whole, mystical included.
 

beenherebeforeagain

Rogue Animist
Premium Member
Reality! What a concept!

Personally, I am a skeptic in the original sense of the term. I am therefore more pragmatic in my approach--there may be truths, even Truth, but I and other humans are unlikely to know it in whole, and maybe even not much in part. But if it works, stick with it, and keep looking at it to see if it's still working. If you need to change, then you do so, and you don't spend a lot of time and effort trying to know The Truth, or even truths...you settle for provisional "well, this might be true...it sure looks like it's working nows."
 

allfoak

Alchemist
Here in Mysticism DIR, I often see the question "How do you know it's real?" meaning the mystic experience. I view it like this: How do I know what an orange tastes like? My senses tell me. And then comes the question "what if your senses are fooling you?". This brings all of reality, not just mystic experience into question. Everything I experience is an artifact of my senses. If I can't trust my senses, then how do I get along from day to day, because for all practical purposes (barring mental illness or brain tumor) I CAN trust my senses for most purposes.

We don't question the reality of the computer keyboards we're typing on. We see them. We feel them. I don't think it's reasonable to hold mystic experience to a higher standard of "reality" than we give the rest of the world around us. And as any physicist would point out, "reality" depends on the level of analysis you're on. On one level, the table you're sitting at is "real". On another, it's rapidly vibrating molecules. Just because we can look at the same thing on different levels, does it mean one of them isn't "real"?

The issue that many seem to have is that they cannot accept that intuition is a valid way of obtaining knowledge.
Logic and intuition both are necessary to understand a matter.
Use one without the other and only a very narrow perspective of a subject will be understood.

So when logic alone is used to understand life, reality becomes only that which can be experienced through the physical senses.
When intuition alone is used to understand life, reality becomes blurred by emotional instability and delusion.
When the two are used together as they should be, reason can be used to give structure to what intuition senses.

It seems reality is more clearly defined as balance.
To use a metaphor.
Reality would be the little dots in the yin and yang symbol.

smileyyinyang.jpg
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
I think there's something of a consensus in psychology that the senses do not mirror reality. They do not re-present it. Instead, they are more like instruments, such as thermometers are instruments. A thermometer might tell you that the temperature is 72 degrees, but the designation 72 degrees itself is a fiction. Similarly, your eyes and brain tell you that something is red, but the designation red is created in the eyes and brain, and is not an actual property of the thing you see.

Still, it can be quite difficult to see beyond the feeling that red is reality. Apparently, though, that feeling of something being real is, like the color red, something produced in the brain, and not something produced by a reality apart from the brain.

The question one has about the mystical experience (i.e. the experience involving a sense of the oneness of all things, etc.) is whether and in what way it might be like the color red. That is, it seems wholly possible that the sense of oneness has the same relationship to reality as the color red has to reality. It might be that it is not a property of reality, but rather a response of the brain to some reality that "oneness" does not actually represent.

Since there is not, at this time, an independent means of determining whether or in what way oneness measures reality, we must live with the uncertainty that reality might be very different indeed from oneness.
 

allfoak

Alchemist
@Sunstone
Oneness to me is just a sense of well-being, it is in no way the goal.
The sense of oneness is common for me, even before i understood anything about what was happening to me i knew how to achieve the oneness feeling.
You are correct that the way in which oneness measures reality is much like the color red.
Oneness is the term that reason uses to describe the emotion of oneness.
We see something that causes an emotional response and through the use of reason we interpret it as red.

This is the proper use of intuition and logic.
What the intuition senses and how logic interprets what the intuition senses are the next questions i suppose.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Still, it can be quite difficult to see beyond the feeling that red is reality. Apparently, though, that feeling of something being real is, like the color red, something produced in the brain, and not something produced by a reality apart from the brain.
I like your post a great deal, and it makes many arguments I am in my upcoming book (whenever that takes shape). However let's put a finer point on this. What you say about the difficulty in seeing beyond the feeling that red is the things reality is very true. Red is a metaphor, a way for us to hold experience with our minds. But what happens in time as we learn these word-signs is that the metaphors collapse into descriptors of reality. They become dead metaphors. We "concretize" the metaphors, make them the facts of the thing itself. And so we fuse together the experience of reality with these descriptors, or worse, which happens in memory of experience, we shortcircuit reality and replace experience itself with the experience of words, living inside a world of linguistic signs. We experience the signs and call that reality.

When it comes to mystical experience, the goal and purpose of it is to move beyond words into as best as possible an unmediated reality, into experience itself. That said however, interpretation of it does in fact happen after the fact, or even right alongside it during the experience itself if it is within what are called subtle-state experiences; encounters with the divine in form, such as light, deities, devas, and so forth. In these cases the nature of symbols takes on a different characteristic, which truly is moving back into the realm of actual metaphors. They are simply open-ended, rather than descriptors which are the husks of a dead metaphor. If one consciously understands that the manner in which the mind interprets, or rather translates the experience itself is not 'factual', not the actuality of the thing itself but the mind's symbolic representation of it (this is a metaphor), then it does not get confused that what it encounters is the final or absolute truth of it.

The feeling of the color red being real is the illusion of the mind, yes, imagining that there is an actual thing called "red" laying around on there in nature, just like imagining God is laying around out there. But it is in fact true they are experiencing something. There is also the fact that the words that people use convey something actually meaningful about the experience, such as 'oneness'

The question one has about the mystical experience (i.e. the experience involving a sense of the oneness of all things, etc.) is whether and in what way it might be like the color red. That is, it seems wholly possible that the sense of oneness has the same relationship to reality as the color red has to reality. It might be that it is not a property of reality, but rather a response of the brain to some reality that "oneness" does actually represents. Is "oneness" something that is a factual thing laying around out there, in the sense of objective reality, or is it the highest experience of the human being in response to objective reality?

I'd say both actually, but that will get a lot of detailed and deeper than I want to go at the moment. We are experiencing ourselves as human, both as subject and object, both of the world, and the world itself. There is an objective truth to this as well as a subjective response as a human. But we have to be careful not let our metaphysical language we use to talk about it become a description of reality itself. Reality has to remain open, even while we close off little bits of it in order to talk about it with one another.
 
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