The Lords Prayer - ‘Thine is the Kingdom…’

[Soapy]

What?
The Bible isn't the only "Scripture", you know.
I think that it is good to know what "platform" the individual debaters are arguing on.

Personally, I argue from a Muslim/Christian platform.
I do not believe that Jesus is God.

I have recently attended a mosque, Methodist church and JW kingdom hall.
What about you?

Sorry, I thought it was Christian scriptures.

Denomination? None … I just believe the truth and none of the established mainstream beliefs tell the whole truth.

Pushed…? There is an invisible Christian-based belief system that has no name attached to it. There are only a relatively few members since the mass of people subscribe to mainstream belief system in order to feel that they belong - that they have a need for a physical place of worship despite Jesus saying that true worship is in spirit, not on the mountain nor in the temple (physical places) - aka Corporate Worship ;nothing wrong with corporate worship in itself - just that it’s not the TRUE place of PERSONAL worship. Corporate worship requires repetition and staid, ready made, man-made glorification)

What do I believe about Jesus?
Well, I have expressed it myriad times in this forum.

Jesus is the second and Last Adam: born of the holy spiritual of god; sinless and holy and righteous.

This does not mean he is God. That is pure paganism touted by people who call themselves FOLLOWERS OF CHRIST: Christians. But, how can that be if they are classing Jesus as God?! Surely that should them be FOLLOWERS OF GOD: YHWHIANS..!

JW… they claim Jesus was an Angel before being born as man…. Duh!!! So why does scriptures say:

To which of the angels did God ever say: you are my son, this day I have become your Father?

Trinitarians also cannot fathom how Jesus was ADOPTED by God (see quoted verse above).. I mean, truly, who cannot see that the verse is an ADOPTION CONFIRMATION…

7-DAY ADVENTISTS still believe in Sabbath day and can’t work on their sabbath - but Jesus says that this practice is s millstone around their necks and hypocritical: which one of them would not do WORK to pull his donkey out of it fell into a well? And you can see that this applies to many other WORK: Doctor, Fireman; Service industry personnel; Lifeboat staff; mountain rescue staff….!!
There’s also a lot else wrong in 7DA belief but I don’t ever really talk much about it.
Baptist… ???
Pentecostals believe in worshipping the spirit of God… I really can’t understand why they think to do that. Truly though, they DO NOT DO IT… they just claim that they do… which makes a mockery of their ‘God’ if it were true.

Not only that but they use a DOVE as the symbol of their belief … but at PENTECOST it was ‘TONGUES OF FIRE’ that the spirit of God was represented as.

Evangelicals… aren’t they just after MONEY and FAME?

Modalism… Nah! That is still trinitarian.

Oneness… they are trinitarian Pentecostals despite their claim that they are not: They believe Jesus is all three supposed ‘godhead’ same as ‘Jesus Only’.

Jesus-only… believer in Jesus as all three godhead. ( Christadelphians). There’s a funny story around this when I first encountered this niche church (I’ll tell you only if you wanna hear it!)

Who/what else…. Enough! Basically, Jesus spoke of the problems that the earthly churches (as opposed to the Spiritual Church) would be like. Check out what is written in the book of Revelation about the Seven Churches of Asia Minor. Basically he told that though they each had a strain of truth they were all ultimately not preaching truth… Have it known that were more than seven churches in Asia Minor so these seven were only EXAMPLES of what would occur in earthly churches then and to come. These are reflected in some of those I outlined above.

So, you see that there is no earthly church belief that tells the whole truth - and anything that is true and false IS FALSE!

 

[Wildswanderer]

ut if we are to pray to the Father (and there is no indication of anyone else to pray to) how is it that many people say that we should pray to JESUS?

We have numerous illustrations from scripture of people worshiping Jesus. When someone praises Jesus as God how is that different than praying to Jesus?

 

[Soapy]

We have numerous illustrations from scripture of people worshiping Jesus. When someone praises Jesus as God how is that different than praying to Jesus?

No one is called to PRAY TO JESUS. I would defy you to find a verse in the Christian scriptures that states praying to Jesus.

Moreover, PRAISING someone IS NOT PRAYING to that person.

A PRAYER is a PETITION. You are ASKING for something from a greater power. In a courtroom a lawyer /barrister / Solicitor ‘Prays to the judge’ when they make a request to the judge. The term ‘Pray’ meaning ‘Petition’ had lost its usage over time but if you are reading things from the time of the translators of the Bible then you need to understand the usage of the language OF THAT TIME.

We are requested to pray TO THE FATHER - ONLY!

We are requested to pray to the Father IN THE NAME OF JESUS. This means:

• With integrity
• With reverence to the Father
• With honesty
• With holiness
• With unselfishness
• In glory of the magnitude of power and authority of the Father (God)

Again, the analogy of a judge: All the above bulleted items apply when ‘praying to’ or simply addressing a judge.., otherwise you would be ‘IN CONTEMPT’!!!

And, addressing the first part of what you said: NO ONE WORSHIPPED JESUS.

You are simply claiming what TRINITARIANS wrongfully claim. I put it to you that the Jews knew that worshipping anyone other than their ONE GOD was blasphemy. Tell me, then… When the Jews witnessed the disciples ‘worshipping’ Jesus.. why didn’t they arrest Jesus and the people doing the BLASPHEMOUS ACT… afterall, they were FERVENTLY SEEKING WAYS to KILL HIM… this would have been a great excuse!!!!

No!!! The true translation is ‘OBEISANCE’… which means ‘Bow down to’; ‘to Show due reverence to one in authority’; a master; a priest and High priest the more; a king; …

The disciples certainly regarded Jesus as a great teacher and their master. It is only right that they should greet him WITH OBEISANCE!

But tell me this: Did King David accept ‘WORSHIP’ from his subjects? Didn’t they ‘WORSHIP THE KING’!! Didn’t Bathsheba WORSHIP David as David lay unwell in his bed…. Oh?!! That’s different? How?
The SAME (THE EQUIVALENT!!) word to ‘Worship is used in the Old Testament - But no one says that David (and others) RECEIVED WORSHIP!

It appears that trinitarian translation tries very hard to make claims that are invalid. It doesn’t bode well for a belief that claims to be ‘Following Christ’… Christ Jesus certainly did not misquote or tell wrongful things to his followers…!!

 

[muhammad_isa]

Denomination? None … I just believe the truth and none of the established mainstream beliefs tell the whole truth..

Ah, OK .. thanks for clarifying.

..So, you see that there is no earthly church belief that tells the whole truth - and anything that is true and false IS FALSE!

I agree that if you want to see things in a distinct "black & white" way, nobody has the whole truth. However, I think that humans are in need of each other, and there is great benefit in worship in congregation.
Our intention and sincerity is more important than whether a person is a scholar or not..
..yes?

 

[Wildswanderer]

Moreover, PRAISING someone IS NOT PRAYING to that person.

Hogwash. Jesus illustrates this himself in the Lord's prayer. " Hallowed be your name." That's not a petition.

 

[Wildswanderer]

You are simply claiming what TRINITARIANS wrongfully claim. I put it to you that the Jews knew that worshipping anyone other than their ONE GOD was blasphemy. Tell me, then… When the Jews witnessed the disciples ‘worshipping’ Jesus.. why didn’t they arrest Jesus and the people doing the BLASPHEMOUS ACT… afterall, they were FERVENTLY SEEKING WAYS to KILL HIM… this would have been a great excuse!!!!

Um, yeah, they were trying to kill him because they thought he was blasphemous.
Thanks for proving my point.
“I and the Father are one.” 31The Jews took up stones again to stone Him.32Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?” 33The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God,” (John 10:30-33)

 

[Wildswanderer]

No one is called to PRAY TO JESUS. I would defy you to find a verse in the Christian scriptures that states praying to Jesus.

Moreover, PRAISING someone IS NOT PRAYING to that person.

A PRAYER is a PETITION. You are ASKING for something from a greater power. In a courtroom a lawyer /barrister / Solicitor ‘Prays to the judge’ when they make a request to the judge. The term ‘Pray’ meaning ‘Petition’ had lost its usage over time but if you are reading things from the time of the translators of the Bible then you need to understand the usage of the language OF THAT TIME.

We are requested to pray TO THE FATHER - ONLY!

We are requested to pray to the Father IN THE NAME OF JESUS. This means:

• With integrity
• With reverence to the Father
• With honesty
• With holiness
• With unselfishness
• In glory of the magnitude of power and authority of the Father (God)

Again, the analogy of a judge: All the above bulleted items apply when ‘praying to’ or simply addressing a judge.., otherwise you would be ‘IN CONTEMPT’!!!

And, addressing the first part of what you said: NO ONE WORSHIPPED JESUS.

You are simply claiming what TRINITARIANS wrongfully claim. I put it to you that the Jews knew that worshipping anyone other than their ONE GOD was blasphemy. Tell me, then… When the Jews witnessed the disciples ‘worshipping’ Jesus.. why didn’t they arrest Jesus and the people doing the BLASPHEMOUS ACT… afterall, they were FERVENTLY SEEKING WAYS to KILL HIM… this would have been a great excuse!!!!

No!!! The true translation is ‘OBEISANCE’… which means ‘Bow down to’; ‘to Show due reverence to one in authority’; a master; a priest and High priest the more; a king; …

The disciples certainly regarded Jesus as a great teacher and their master. It is only right that they should greet him WITH OBEISANCE!

But tell me this: Did King David accept ‘WORSHIP’ from his subjects? Didn’t they ‘WORSHIP THE KING’!! Didn’t Bathsheba WORSHIP David as David lay unwell in his bed…. Oh?!! That’s different? How?
The SAME (THE EQUIVALENT!!) word to ‘Worship is used in the Old Testament - But no one says that David (and others) RECEIVED WORSHIP!

It appears that trinitarian translation tries very hard to make claims that are invalid. It doesn’t bode well for a belief that claims to be ‘Following Christ’… Christ Jesus certainly did not misquote or tell wrongful things to his followers…!!

Paul. . . to the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy, together with all those everywhere who call on3 the name of our Lord Jesus Christ—their Lord and ours (1 Corinthians 1:1–

Lord Jesus, receive my Spirit” (Acts 7:59). At Paul’s conversion, he prayed to Jesus: “Lord, what wilt thou have me do?” (Acts 9:6). Ananias prayed to Jesus when Jesus spoke to him in a vision (Acts 9:10–14). And the very last prayer in the New Testament is addressed to Jesus by the Apostle John: “Even so come, Lord Jesus!” (Revelation 22:20).

But I'm sure you know better than the apostle John did!

 

[muhammad_isa]

But I'm sure you know better than the apostle John did!

The author names himself as "John", but modern scholars consider it unlikely that the author of Revelation also wrote the Gospel of John. He was a Jewish Christian prophet, probably belonging to a group of such prophets, and was accepted by the congregations to whom he addresses his letter.
- wiki -

I believe he is known as John of Patmos.
He was a Nazarene, and is reported to have had a vision.
The source is not quoted from Jesus.

 

[Soapy]

Ah, OK .. thanks for clarifying.


I agree that if you want to see things in a distinct "black & white" way, nobody has the whole truth. However, I think that humans are in need of each other, and there is great benefit in worship in congregation.
Our intention and sincerity is more important than whether a person is a scholar or not..
..yes?

That’s true - and I did say that congregational worship is worthy - afterall, Jesus said that:

• When two or three (even two or three is a congregation) there I am among you’

This means that there should be …:

• Integrity
• Sincerity
• Honesty
• Truthfulness
• Unselfishness
• Love
• Forgiveness
• (… more in the same light)

… ‘AMONG YOU’. In other words, ‘Jesus’ represents all the above list. And that’s why also we should pray in ‘his name’ … in his representation.

But… I did also say that corporate prayer (congregational prayer) tends to be repetitious by nature; it must be learnt and discharged with regularity and sameness.

This CAN lead to recitation without SPIRITUAL COMMITMENT (Habitual worship)…

 

[Kenny]

No one is called to PRAY TO JESUS. I would defy you to find a verse in the Christian scriptures that states praying to Jesus.

John 4:10
Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

 

[Soapy]

Paul. . . to the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy, together with all those everywhere who call on3 the name of our Lord Jesus Christ—their Lord and ours (1 Corinthians 1:1–

It’s actually verse 2 that you state. But nonetheless it seems you missed the crucial term:

• ‘Call on the Name of Jesus’

All petitions should be addressed ‘IN THE NAME OF JESUS [CHRIST]’. This is exactly what Jesus says:

• “Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” (John 14:6)

The PRAYER IS TO THE FATHER ‘through’ [the name of] Jesus Christ. This is like asking your solicitor to ask something of the judge. Your petition is asked of the judge through the solicitor:

• “Whatever you ask IN MY NAME…”

Praying “In my name’ (or even ‘Calling upon my name’ means: … well, you know. I’ve said it already.

So, no! That is not a valid answer to my test for you.

Lord Jesus, receive my Spirit” (Acts 7:59).

This one is very odd. This is a prayer direct to Jesus. But when Jesus died he addressed the same to GOD… to the Father.

And we know that the Father is ‘The Father of Spirits’.

And no one else recorded in the scriptures ever addressed their dying wish to Jesus!

I know you desperately want to claim otherwise but This then, must be put down to an error on the part of Stephen or the trinitarian translators - since Stephen, in vision, saw Heaven open and saw “GOD” SEATED on His throne AND Jesus STANDING next to Him.

The judge is SEATED - The solicitor STANDS!

The situation in this verse is outside BOTH our ability to render correctly - so no points there, either!

At Paul’s conversion, he prayed to Jesus: “Lord, what wilt thou have me do?” (Acts 9:6).

Did you notice that ONLY THE KING JAMES BIBLE has this as part of the verse (Acts 9:6). Even the Greek it was translated from does not have those words!! Nil point!

Ananias prayed to Jesus when Jesus spoke to him in a vision (Acts 9:10–14).

Umm… I don’t see anything (there is nothing) in those verses where Ananias is praying to Jesus…. Jesus simply instructs Ananias to go to Paul and restore his sight. Nil point, again!

And the very last prayer in the New Testament is addressed to Jesus by the Apostle John: “Even so come, Lord Jesus!” (Revelation 22:20).

This certainly sounds like a petition to Jesus…. on the surface. But check underneath!!!

EVEN JESUS does not know when he is to RETURN!! It is “In the hands of the Father”.

I cannot see how this is a valid ‘prayer’ except that it may be saying: “Let it be as it is prophesied to be… that you are to return…. And even so, Lord Jesus, MAY YOU come quickly but in the Father’s time!’

Given what John has just been shown in vision - was it A prayer - or an open desire for these things to be accomplished!!?? I’m not sure you earn a point there either… sorry: Nil points out of 4!!

But I'm sure you know better than the apostle John did!

I know what the scripture says.

 

[Soapy]

John 4:10
Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

Kenny, don’t be desperate! It’s not a good look if you think class yourself as a truth speaker!!!

 

[Soapy]

Um, yeah, they were trying to kill him because they thought he was blasphemous.
Thanks for proving my point.
“I and the Father are one.” 31The Jews took up stones again to stone Him.32Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?” 33The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God,” (John 10:30-33)

Cognition is not your strong point, I see.

The Jews were trying to kill him because he was causing a problem to the established belief system. People were following Jesus in ever greater hordes and the romans might have taken this as an impending riot situation.

The romans could not subdue the Jews in their worship of a one God and the ways of living related to it (unlike what theg had done to other tribes and nations they had conquered) so the romans agreed with the Jewish leaders that the Jews could continue in their way AS LONG AS THEY DID NOT KILL ANYONE WITHOUT THEIR AUTHORITY EXCEPT IN THE WAY OF STONING. Also that THEY DID NOT CAUSE ANY RIOTING OR ATTEMPTS TO HAVE ANY OTHER KING BUT CEASAR (Human king - not spiritual!)

Though Jesus made it clear he was a SPIRITUAL KING the Jews got desperate and conspired to claim that Jesus was calling himself ‘King in place of Caesar’ which is SEDITION.

But I notice your claim here has nothing to do with being bowed down to… did you forget what point you were supposed to be trying to make.

The rest of what you said had nothing to do with the discussion at hand. It seems you are thrashing and going off point for the sake of having nothing to refute in what I said.

 

[Soapy]

Hogwash. Jesus illustrates this himself in the Lord's prayer. " Hallowed be your name." That's not a petition.

Oh dear…. Wow! This is amazing!!

I don’t know a good way to answer this preposterous nonesense!

Oh, ok. In Petitioning GOD (a judge) you need to appeal to his POWER AND AUTHORITY.

I take it you never seen a court in session… understand it this way, then:
“Your great majesty, May your name always be mighty. All things are yours - for you created them. I admit I am a sinner but I do try to do the right thing - failing often. I forgive my fellows many times for their sins against me - and I’m asking you to forgive my sins against you. Lord God, you know our needs,.. sufficient for the day is what I ask for us … Lord God, Mighty God, Lord of all, Thank you for listening!’

There! ‘Hallowed by thy name’ is all part of the great petition to any great authority: appeal to their mightiness.

 

[PruePhillip]

In Matthew 6:9-13, Jesus lays out a model prayer (a petition) that godly men should follow.

It is not meant to be repeated vainly nor repetitively (‘as heathens do’ verse 7)

In the model prayer, Jesus projects all things towards the Father:

• ‘Our Father who is in Heaven, Hallowed be thy name; Thy kingdom come; Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven’

Jesus infers the name of the Father be kept ‘Hallowed’ (Sacred), and that all things belong to the Father; that the kingdom is HIS. Also that it is desired that HIS Will be done by mankind just as it is done by the holy angels of Heaven.

There is an order to the prayer (which I won’t go into here) which culminates in Jesus again glorifying the Father:

• ‘For thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory, for ever’

Jesus indicates that the prayer must be rubber stamps with an ‘Amen’, which means that it is a true, honest, venerable, unselfish, heartfelt prayer.

But if we are to pray to the Father (and there is no indication of anyone else to pray to) how is it that many people say that we should pray to JESUS?

Added to that, the very next verse after the model prayer, Jesus says that we should forgive the trespasses of men (obviously with caution and regard to judicial systems!!) so that the FATHER will forgive us (as mentioned in the model prayer). The outcome is that forgiveness comes from the FATHER or ourselves, as in men can forgive men, and the Father can forgive men.
Not only that but Jesus says at another time that it is given to the son of man to forgive sins.

But many people say that only the Father can forgive sins…?

I see a disparity between certain sects of Christianity and what the scriptures say. In the snapshot above, it is clear that Jesus does not call himself ‘God’ (aka: the Father) but rather, he attributes all things to the God.

How can these anomalies be sorted out?

If you repeat the 'Lord's prayer' then yes, you are in danger of 'vain repititions.'
It's a sample prayer. I am sure Jesus never said this a second time.

 

[Sedim Haba]

It seems to be the case that St John's gospel is the one with the most developed theology, including the idea of Jesus as God, though there are some suggestions in other places, esp. St Paul, I think.

But as far as I know, even Jehovah's Witnesses accept St John's gospel.

Yes, all Xians follow Rome the Antichrist. Most developed theology idolatry. Super effective!

 

[Sedim Haba]

If you repeat the 'Lord's prayer' then yes, you are in danger of 'vain repititions.'
It's a sample prayer. I am sure Jesus never said this a second time.

It's a pretty good prayer, really. If you say it will full intent, and not by rote in a hurry to get
thu it fast and then repeat again just because. Repeat only if concentration is lost.
It all depends on what you add to it, on your own afterwards.
However, I don't expect an answer from the absent G-d. He's left our sorry world, and moved on.

 

[exchemist]

Yes, all Xians follow Rome the Antichrist. Most developed theology idolatry. Super effective!

Gosh you are a blast from the past. I thought that eyeball-rolling peasant stuff about the "antichrist" went out decades ago.

 

[Sedim Haba]

I thought this was forum section was about Christian ‘Scriptural Debate’?

Um, no, it seems not just Xian by the title or the forum.. You have to specify: Xians ONLY to get your echo chamber

 

[Kenny]

Kenny, don’t be desperate! It’s not a good look if you think class yourself as a truth speaker!!!

You asked for one. Is it because I found one that you decided to try an attack?

Luke 10:17 The seventy-two returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in your name!”

I find interesting that they didn't do this in the name of the Father or even ask the Father to do it.