The Lord's prayer - a template for all?

[michel]

Lately, I have been struggling with my faith; as it is, I think the doubts are beginning to disappear.

However, it occurred to me that the principles of the Lord's prayer - if taken literally - could equally well be a template suitable for non-theists.

Our Father who art in heaven,
hallowed be your name.
Your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth, as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread,
and forgive us our sins,
as we have forgiven those who have sinned against us
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.
For thine is the Kingdom,
The power and the glory,
Forever and ever,
Amen

Let's take the "Father who art in heaven" - we can all imagine a benevolent father figure, who means the best for us, and, surely, such a father would be a heavenly ideal?
Would it not be great if this benevolent father figure (I am reminded of him as when, in therapy for depression, it has been suggested that the patient imagines himself in the shoes of his own father, who would council him and try to help make him feel better about himself) - we all have a tendency to be too hard on ourselves.
Should we not at least hope that each day will bring us solutions to our needs , and hopefully they will be met?
Should we not hope that we can forgive ourselves our "sins"(transgressions, evil deeds, whatever), in the same manner that we forgive others whom have hurt us?
Let us at least hope that the goodness in ourselves try to steer ourselves away from temptation which we feel is wrong; for such is the power, the glory, of the ideals of such "heavenly thoughts"?

 

[Tumah]

Are you trying to pull a fast one over non-theists to get them to pray to your god?

 

[Desert Snake]

I have to disagree with the OP...that isn't for non-theists..

 

[michel]

Are you trying to pull a fast one over non-theists to get them to pray to your god?

No way! I am merely trying to suggest that we may well all have the same ideals in common; as a theist, I include a deity as a "father", but I recognise that that is probably illogical, certainly something I cannot claim to be wholly certain of.

I was thinking about this one evening, when it occurred to me that - perhaps - a moral non-theist and a moral theist are maybe just after the same goals (without the Deity in the case of the non-theist).

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No way! I am merely trying to suggest that we may well all have the same ideals in common; as a theist, I include a deity as a "father", but I recognise that that is probably illogical, certainly something I cannot claim to be wholly certain of.

The quality of "father" as a representation of the divine probably depends greatly on the quality of one's own father.

I was thinking about this one evening, when it occurred to me that - perhaps - a moral non-theist and a moral theist are maybe just after the same goals (without the Deity in the case of the non-theist).

Speaking for myself, my morality is based on ideas that are incompatible with "mainstream" religion... e.g. the absence of an afterlife and some sort of divine retribution. In a large part, I act morally now in order to make moral outcomes happen, since I can't count on some god doing it for me.

I like how Penn Jillette put it:

Believing there's no God means I can't really be forgiven except by kindness and faulty memories. That's good; it makes me want to be more thoughtful. I have to try to treat people right the first time around.

[...]

Believing there is no God means the suffering I've seen in my family, and indeed all the suffering in the world, isn't caused by an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent force that isn't bothered to help or is just testing us, but rather something we all may be able to help others with in the future. No God means the possibility of less suffering in the future.

There Is No God : NPR

 

[Aupmanyav]

- we can all imagine a benevolent father figure, who means the best for us, and, surely, such a father would be a heavenly ideal?
Would it not be great if this benevolent father figure (I am reminded of him as when, in therapy for depression, it has been suggested that the patient imagines himself in the shoes of his own father, who would council him and try to help make him feel better about himself) - we all have a tendency to be too hard on ourselves.
Should we not at least hope that each day will bring us solutions to our needs , and hopefully they will be met?
Should we not hope that we can forgive ourselves our "sins"(transgressions, evil deeds, whatever), in the same manner that we forgive others whom have hurt us?
Let us at least hope that the goodness in ourselves try to steer ourselves away from temptation which we feel is wrong; for such is the power, the glory, of the ideals of such "heavenly thoughts"?

Once you start imagining, all things are possible. I am not a patient. We come to solutions without any divine help, need to use our brain. Forgiveness requires, repentance, restitution, and no repetition of the offense (the whole thing being termed as 'prayaschita' in Sanskrit). Steer away from wrong and indulge in righteous action is every one's duty (dharma). Where is any father involved?

 

[Vinayaka]

I heard that prayer for 9 years of my school life ... never did remember more than the first 6 words, and the last one.

But yay for those who did.

 

[Ingledsva]

Lately, I have been struggling with my faith; as it is, I think the doubts are beginning to disappear.

However, it occurred to me that the principles of the Lord's prayer - if taken literally - could equally well be a template suitable for non-theists.

Our Father who art in heaven,
hallowed be your name.
Your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth, as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread,
and forgive us our sins,
as we have forgiven those who have sinned against us
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.
For thine is the Kingdom,
The power and the glory,
Forever and ever,
Amen

Let's take the "Father who art in heaven" - we can all imagine a benevolent father figure, who means the best for us, and, surely, such a father would be a heavenly ideal?
Would it not be great if this benevolent father figure (I am reminded of him as when, in therapy for depression, it has been suggested that the patient imagines himself in the shoes of his own father, who would council him and try to help make him feel better about himself) - we all have a tendency to be too hard on ourselves.
Should we not at least hope that each day will bring us solutions to our needs , and hopefully they will be met?
Should we not hope that we can forgive ourselves our "sins"(transgressions, evil deeds, whatever), in the same manner that we forgive others whom have hurt us?
Let us at least hope that the goodness in ourselves try to steer ourselves away from temptation which we feel is wrong; for such is the power, the glory, of the ideals of such "heavenly thoughts"?

Here is a version from Aramaic -


Oh Thou, from whom the breath of life comes, who fills all realms of sound, light and vibration.
May Your light be experienced in my utmost holiest.
Your Heavenly Domain approaches.
Let Your will come true - in the universe (all that vibrates) just as on earth (that is material and dense).
Give us wisdom (understanding, assistance) for our daily need, detach the fetters of faults that bind us, (karma) like we let go the guilt of others.
Let us not be lost in superficial things (materialism, common temptations), but let us be freed from that what keeps us from our true purpose.
From You comes the all-working will, the lively strength to act, the song that beautifies all and renews itself from age to age.
Sealed in trust, faith and truth.
(I confirm with my entire being)


But I like mine better -



Our Temptation
which is in gold wrappers,
Chocolate be thy name,

Thy dark Kingdom come
Thy tasty will be done
On me and all the others.

Give us this day our daily chocolate
And forgive us our potato chips
As we forgive those whom hog the sweet morsels,

And lead us not into other sugary temptations
For thine is the true glory
For ever and ever

chocolate

 

[Twilight Hue]

I regarded the lords prayer as being one of the most inspirational and beautiful sayings when I was a Christian as it provided a refuge and a source of strength to face adversary admist the struggles that life entails.

I still am quite fond of Lords Prayer with it's inspirational theme in spite of dropping my theistic beliefs. It's principles of refuge and maintaining strength, imo, can transfer well in a non-theistic venue in some capacity, but likely would appeal to ex-Christians more so than those unfamiliar with experiencing the prayer itself.

 

[columbus]

Lately, I have been struggling with my faith; as it is, I think the doubts are beginning to disappear.

However, it occurred to me that the principles of the Lord's prayer - if taken literally - could equally well be a template suitable for non-theists.

Our Father who art in heaven,
hallowed be your name.
Your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth, as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread,
and forgive us our sins,
as we have forgiven those who have sinned against us
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.
For thine is the Kingdom,
The power and the glory,
Forever and ever,
Amen

Let's take the "Father who art in heaven" - we can all imagine a benevolent father figure, who means the best for us, and, surely, such a father would be a heavenly ideal?
Would it not be great if this benevolent father figure (I am reminded of him as when, in therapy for depression, it has been suggested that the patient imagines himself in the shoes of his own father, who would council him and try to help make him feel better about himself) - we all have a tendency to be too hard on ourselves.
Should we not at least hope that each day will bring us solutions to our needs , and hopefully they will be met?
Should we not hope that we can forgive ourselves our "sins"(transgressions, evil deeds, whatever), in the same manner that we forgive others whom have hurt us?
Let us at least hope that the goodness in ourselves try to steer ourselves away from temptation which we feel is wrong; for such is the power, the glory, of the ideals of such "heavenly thoughts"?

My morality is based on this:
There is no god to care about us or what we do. If anyone is going to care about anything we humans must do it. Otherwise it won't happen.

I've never seen that in any Scripture anywhere, but I've sure seen it in real life.

Tom

I

 

[CMike]

I am more than happy with Psalms.

Some of my favorites

Tehillim - Chapter 91 - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible

Tehillim - Chapter 23 - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible

Tehillim - Chapter 120 - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible

Tehillim - Chapter 121 - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible

 

[michel]

The quality of "father" as a representation of the divine probably depends greatly on the quality of one's own father.

But I am talking of an "ideal" father here - mine was certainly not perfect, but I am proud to have had the opportunity to be his son

Speaking for myself, my morality is based on ideas that are incompatible with "mainstream" religion... e.g. the absence of an afterlife and some sort of divine retribution. In a large part, I act morally now in order to make moral outcomes happen, since I can't count on some god doing it for me.

I don't believe in something I can't conceptualise, so, in many ways, I believe that your "I act morally now in order to make moral outcomes happen" is just as applicable to a way of life for me as it is for you - though I hope , for your sake, that you much more successful at acting morally than I am - I am afraid that I am very weak, and often don't "Do the right thing" - which upsets me greatly - not because of What "God will think", but more immediately, because of what I know has occurred...........

 

[michel]

I still am quite fond of Lords Prayer with it's inspirational theme in spite of dropping my theistic beliefs. It's principles of refuge and maintaining strength, imo, can transfer well in a non-theistic venue in some capacity, but likely would appeal to ex-Christians more so than those unfamiliar with experiencing the prayer itself.

I wonder why ? I somehow sense a feeling of "Oh, blast, here comes another theist trying to ram his religion down my throat"; that is never my intention (which, technically I suppose makes me a pretty lousy disciple) - I tend to think that someone whom is pushed through a door will be reluctant to walk in the room; if they choose to walk into the room, well, good for them 9again, as long as that is truly what they want)