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The Love Life of Jesus

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
Do you think that Jesus was a celibate man or perhaps had a love life? How (if you are a Christian) would your answer to this question influence (or as the case may be not influence) your understanding of Christology?

An assumption is often made by many Christians that Jesus refrained from sexual relations. In some denominations, his singleness is held up as a model for celibate priesthood and/or monasticism. The Church, the body of believers, is described in Paul's letter to the Ephesians as the virgin bride of Christ and in the Book of Relevation she is depicted as joining Him, the Lamb slain on the cross, in an eschatological wedding banquet. St. Augustine quite beautifully referred to the "marriage-bed of the cross". In the Old Testament, YHWH-God often refers to his covenantal relationship with Israel in nuptial terms, playing the role of a divine husband to his people - what scholars call the hieros gamos, or hierogamy. This theology can lend itself well to a celibate Christ, inasmuch as he is understood to have been figuratively 'wedded' to his mission and to his disciples as the Bridegroom Messiah, the God of Israel incarnate.

However, even though it's rarely spoken about (I think in part for reasons of religious sensitivity and not wanting to rock any doctrinal boats), there's actually textual evidence in the NT itself that could suggest Jesus had sexual relationships, namely in the Gospel of John.

According to scholars, the Gospel of John employs literary motifs from courtship scenes between biblical patriarchs and betrothed women at wells in Genesis, the erotic Song of Songs in the Tanakh and Graeco-Roman romance novels to depict Jesus's relationships with at least two but possibly three women in succession (the Samaritan woman at Jacob's well, Mary of Bethany and Mary Magdalene).

A number of scholars have drawn attention to the strong bridal mysticism in the text of the Fourth Gospel, here I cite Jocelyn McWhirter and Fehribach in the 2008 study, The Bridegroom Messiah and the People of God: Marriage in the Fourth Gospel:


"The “literary conventions of the day” include character types, type-scenes, and techniques of characterization. These can be found first of all in the Hebrew Bible, “one of the most important literary resources for understanding the Fourth Gospel” and the source for several allusions. Four allusions are confirmed: Jer. 33:10–11 in John 3:29, Gen. 29:1–20 in John 4:4– 42, Song 1:12 in John 12:3, and Song 3:1– 4 in John 20:1–18.
Important background literature also includes Hellenistic-Jewish writings such as the books of Judith and Susanna, as well as popular Greco-Roman romance novels like Xenophon’s An Ephesian Tale and Chariton’s Chaereas and Callirhoe.
John uses these literary and cultural conventions to portray Jesus as the messianic bridegroom. The mother of Jesus acts as the “mother of an important son”. The Samaritan woman, Mary of Bethany, and Mary Magdalene are all depicted as his betrothed or bride.
An allusion to Song 1:12 in John 12:3 likens Mary of Bethany to the Song’s bride, conventionally understood as the people of God. An allusion to Song 3:1– 4 in John 20:1–18 allows Mary Magdalene to assume the conventional role of the woman in search of her dead lover’s body." (p.80)​


This is particularly apparent in the narrative in John chapter 4 where Jesus encounters the Samaritan woman at the well of Sychar, anonymous in the text but known in Greek tradition as St. Photini. Jesus conversation with the Samaritan woman is the longest dialogue between Jesus and a woman found in the New Testament. It’s safe to say that it’s pretty important. But what’s just as important is the way that John sets the scene and describes the action.

Consider these scholarly studies:

THE WOOING OF THE WOMAN AT THE WELL: JESUS, THE READER AND READER RESPONSE CRITICISM

"Modern readers of the story about the woman at the well have called attention to three features: first, the story seems to be modelled on a recurring Old Testament story about a meeting between a man and a woman at a well (Genesis 24; 29; Exodus 2; cf. 1 Samuel 9); second, there are a number of double entendres in the vocabulary used by Jesus and the woman...
In the Old Testament there are at least three instances of a scene in which a man and a woman meet at a well, resulting in their betrothal. Though each instance of the type-scene has its own contextual peculiarities there is a pattern of similarities and the scene in John 4 shapes these likenesses.3 By modelling the story on a type-scene familiar to his readers from scripture, the author of chapter 4 is able to draw on the meaning of prior instances to guide his reader's understanding of the meeting between Jesus and the Samaritan woman. Because the previous occurrences of such a meeting always result in the betrothal of the two characters, the reader is led to believe that this fourth instance will have the same result.
The betrothal type-scene, with the relevant verses from John 4 in brackets, is:
i. The future bridegroom (or surrogate) journeys to a foreign land (vv. 1-6).
ii. There he meets a girl, usually described as a "maiden" (na 'arfi) at a well
(vv. 6-7).
iii. Someone, the man or the maiden, draws water from the well (vv. 7—15).
iv. The maiden rushes home to bring news of the stranger (vv. 28—30, 39-42)
DOUBLE ENTENDRE

Supplementing the influence of the type-scene are a number of double entendres made by the two characters in conversation. The reader's recognition of the double entendres, all of which have sexual overtones, leads to the belief that both characters are engaging in a bit of covert verbal coquetry. The formal suggestiveness of the betrothal type-scene is supported from within the story by the characters, whose interaction seems to have an implicit sexual orientation."​


Husband Hunting: Characterization and Narrative Art in the Gospel of John

Direct approaches to the characterization of Jesus in the Gospel of John produce E. Käsemann's glorified Lord. If one looks at Jesus through the eyes of two of the female characters, the Samaritan woman and Mary of Bethany, one encounters a potential lover or mate, a man capable of being loved and loving in return. By employing a mimetic theory of characterization and approaching the character of Jesus indirectly through the secondary characters, the reader constructs a "round" person. This reading of Jesus' character is supported by the exploration of these women's motives for their actions. In both cases, έρωζ, the desire to have and to keep that which is good or beautiful for one's own, compels them to act. In the first case, the result is comedy; in the second case, pathos. In either case, Jesus' response to their words and acts provides them with sufficient motivation to proceed with their overtures of love.

Another scholar, Calum Carmichael, goes right for the jugular and refers to this scene bluntly as a 'sexual encounter':

Calum Carmichael. Sex and Religion in the Bible.

In Sex and Religion in the Bible, Calum Carmichael deciphers sexual metaphor and explores the links between biblical laws that regulate sexual activity and narrative exploits of beloved matriarchs and patriarchs. For preachers, homileticians/teachers and theologians who appreciate better understanding the subtle sexual nuances and symbolism of language and possible ways the laws evolved as a result of lived experiences of biblical actors, they will be intrigued by Carmichael’s approach.
When Carmichael examines the story of Jesus’ interaction with the Samaritan woman at the well (John 4:27), he refers to it as a sexual encounter because of the sexual symbolism of the water. Water, according to Carmichael, is biblically associated with female sexuality (Prov 5:15, 5:18, 9:17). Therefore, when Jesus invites the woman to partake of living water, he is in effect seducing her.

Thoughts?

@Rival @RestlessSoul @exchemist @Augustus @Treks @Brickjectivity @metis
 
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Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Thoughts?
I have heard it argued that the wedding in the gospels was Jesus own. Why was Jesus approached with the problem of the wine? Who were the servants that drew the miraculous wine -- Jesus disciples perhaps? They raised a few other creative questions which I do not now remember.

How (if you are a Christian) would your answer to this question influence (or as the case may be not influence) your understanding of Christology?
Jesus the man can marry, but Jesus son of God cannot marry a woman.

I see a couple of problems. First, can Jesus acknowledge his own offspring,? He talks about the spirit going where it will, so he cannot expect his physical children to inherit his own. Remember how he leaves his parents at the age of 13? He doesn't even see the point of saying goodbye!

If Jesus impregnates a woman is he required by the law to rear the child, or is he required to teach his spiritual children? Which is it?
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
I have heard it argued that the wedding in the gospels was Jesus own. Why was Jesus approached with the problem of the wine? Who were the servants that drew the miraculous wine -- Jesus disciples perhaps? They raised a few other creative questions which I do not now remember.


Jesus the man can marry, but Jesus son of God cannot marry a woman.

I see a couple of problems. First, can Jesus acknowledge his own offspring,? He talks about the spirit going where it will, so he cannot expect his physical children to inherit his own. Remember how he leaves his parents at the age of 13? He doesn't even see the point of saying goodbye!

If Jesus impregnates a woman is he required by the law to rear the child, or is he required to teach his spiritual children? Which is it?
Great points.

Yes, scholars have frequently noted the anomalies and issues that you identify above with the Cana wedding. In general, the Gospel of John is one of the most edited texts in the NT.

Redaction critics have identified at least five stages in the composition of the Gospel: the traditional material, the development of this through oral forms, the first edition of the gospel by the fourth evangelist, a second edition with several iterations of editing and a third by a redactor widely considered to be the John the Presbyter that authored the Johanine epistles.

James Charlesworth also makes a good point in his study, Jesus as Mirrored in John: The Genius in the New Testament

1691253052822.png


1691254157536.png

1691254672032.png



We musn't impose later Christian 'pietism' onto earlier first century Jewish sexual mores. For example, the Torah does not condemn pre-marital sex - only adultery with another man's wife and incest. A category of lawful non-marital, long-term sexual companionship between a man and woman existed in the Tanakh, the so-called 'pilegesh' or concubinage. This was still normative in the time of Jesus, so he would not have been doing anything untoward by having a wife or a 'pilegesh' according to his own Jewish religion of the day:


A concubine may be defined by Jewish laws as a woman dedicating herself to a particular man, with whom she cohabits without *kiddushin (see *Marriage ) or *ketubbah . "What is the difference between wives and concubines? R. Judah said in the name of Rav: Wives have ketubbah and kiddushin, concubines have neither" (Sanh. 21a; Maim. Yad, Melakhim 4:4; Leḥem Mishneh and Radbaz, ad loc.).

This wouldn't have been 'fornication' for a Jewish man like Jesus, following the norms of his culture but rather a legitimate option alongside marriage and celibacy.
 
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Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
We musn't impose later Christian 'pietism' onto earlier first century Jewish sexual mores. For example...
Also some very great points, and I appreciate such depth. No we cannot automatically project our modern Christianities onto Jesus. That much I realize.

I notice, however, that in Matthew 5:13-48 (after the be-attitudes) that Jesus preaches about doing more than the law requires. He ignores the fences around the law and instead goes for a different approach which could be called an extreme approach. I do not know what redaction critics think about this.

I have read one book about redaction, but I am not very familiar. Its all very complicated, and I hate complexity. I rely upon others to understand complex things. I am surprised to be invited in the OP, but I'm glad.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
Do you think that Jesus was a celibate man or perhaps had a love life? How (if you are a Christian) would your answer to this question influence (or as the case may be not influence) your understanding of Christology?

An assumption is often made by many Christians that Jesus refrained from sexual relations. In some denominations, his singleness is held up as a model for celibate priesthood and/or monasticism. The Church, the body of believers, is described in Paul's letter to the Ephesians as the virgin bride of Christ and in the Book of Relevation she is depicted as joining Him, the Lamb slain on the cross, in an eschatological wedding banquet. St. Augustine quite beautifully referred to the "marriage-bed of the cross". In the Old Testament, YHWH-God often refers to his covenantal relationship with Israel in nuptial terms, playing the role of a divine husband to his people - what scholars call the hieros gamos, or hierogamy. This theology can lend itself well to a celibate Christ, inasmuch as he is understood to have been figuratively 'wedded' to his mission and to his disciples as the Bridegroom Messiah, the God of Israel incarnate.

However, even though it's rarely spoken about (I think in part for reasons of religious sensitivity and not wanting to rock any doctrinal boats), there's actually textual evidence in the NT itself that could suggest Jesus had sexual relationships, namely in the Gospel of John.

According to scholars, the Gospel of John employs literary motifs from courtship scenes between biblical patriarchs and betrothed women at wells in Genesis, the erotic Song of Songs in the Tanakh and Graeco-Roman romance novels to depict Jesus's relationships with at least two but possibly three women in succession (the Samaritan woman at Jacob's well, Mary of Bethany and Mary Magdalene).

A number of scholars have drawn attention to the strong bridal mysticism in the text of the Fourth Gospel, here I cite Jocelyn McWhirter and Fehribach in the 2008 study, The Bridegroom Messiah and the People of God: Marriage in the Fourth Gospel:


"The “literary conventions of the day” include character types, type-scenes, and techniques of characterization. These can be found first of all in the Hebrew Bible, “one of the most important literary resources for understanding the Fourth Gospel” and the source for several allusions. Four allusions are confirmed: Jer. 33:10–11 in John 3:29, Gen. 29:1–20 in John 4:4– 42, Song 1:12 in John 12:3, and Song 3:1– 4 in John 20:1–18.
Important background literature also includes Hellenistic-Jewish writings such as the books of Judith and Susanna, as well as popular Greco-Roman romance novels like Xenophon’s An Ephesian Tale and Chariton’s Chaereas and Callirhoe.
John uses these literary and cultural conventions to portray Jesus as the messianic bridegroom. The mother of Jesus acts as the “mother of an important son”. The Samaritan woman, Mary of Bethany, and Mary Magdalene are all depicted as his betrothed or bride.
An allusion to Song 1:12 in John 12:3 likens Mary of Bethany to the Song’s bride, conventionally understood as the people of God. An allusion to Song 3:1– 4 in John 20:1–18 allows Mary Magdalene to assume the conventional role of the woman in search of her dead lover’s body." (p.80)​


This is particularly apparent in the narrative in John chapter 4 where Jesus encounters the Samaritan woman at the well of Sychar, anonymous in the text but known in Greek tradition as St. Photini. Jesus conversation with the Samaritan woman is the longest dialogue between Jesus and a woman found in the New Testament. It’s safe to say that it’s pretty important. But what’s just as important is the way that John sets the scene and describes the action.

Consider these scholarly studies:

THE WOOING OF THE WOMAN AT THE WELL: JESUS, THE READER AND READER RESPONSE CRITICISM

"Modern readers of the story about the woman at the well have called attention to three features: first, the story seems to be modelled on a recurring Old Testament story about a meeting between a man and a woman at a well (Genesis 24; 29; Exodus 2; cf. 1 Samuel 9); second, there are a number of double entendres in the vocabulary used by Jesus and the woman...
In the Old Testament there are at least three instances of a scene in which a man and a woman meet at a well, resulting in their betrothal. Though each instance of the type-scene has its own contextual peculiarities there is a pattern of similarities and the scene in John 4 shapes these likenesses.3 By modelling the story on a type-scene familiar to his readers from scripture, the author of chapter 4 is able to draw on the meaning of prior instances to guide his reader's understanding of the meeting between Jesus and the Samaritan woman. Because the previous occurrences of such a meeting always result in the betrothal of the two characters, the reader is led to believe that this fourth instance will have the same result.
The betrothal type-scene, with the relevant verses from John 4 in brackets, is:
i. The future bridegroom (or surrogate) journeys to a foreign land (vv. 1-6).
ii. There he meets a girl, usually described as a "maiden" (na 'arfi) at a well
(vv. 6-7).
iii. Someone, the man or the maiden, draws water from the well (vv. 7—15).
iv. The maiden rushes home to bring news of the stranger (vv. 28—30, 39-42)
DOUBLE ENTENDRE

Supplementing the influence of the type-scene are a number of double entendres made by the two characters in conversation. The reader's recognition of the double entendres, all of which have sexual overtones, leads to the belief that both characters are engaging in a bit of covert verbal coquetry. The formal suggestiveness of the betrothal type-scene is supported from within the story by the characters, whose interaction seems to have an implicit sexual orientation."​


Husband Hunting: Characterization and Narrative Art in the Gospel of John

Direct approaches to the characterization of Jesus in the Gospel of John produce E. Käsemann's glorified Lord. If one looks at Jesus through the eyes of two of the female characters, the Samaritan woman and Mary of Bethany, one encounters a potential lover or mate, a man capable of being loved and loving in return. By employing a mimetic theory of characterization and approaching the character of Jesus indirectly through the secondary characters, the reader constructs a "round" person. This reading of Jesus' character is supported by the exploration of these women's motives for their actions. In both cases, έρωζ, the desire to have and to keep that which is good or beautiful for one's own, compels them to act. In the first case, the result is comedy; in the second case, pathos. In either case, Jesus' response to their words and acts provides them with sufficient motivation to proceed with their overtures of love.

Another scholar, Calum Carmichael, goes right for the jugular and refers to this scene bluntly as a 'sexual encounter':

Calum Carmichael. Sex and Religion in the Bible.

In Sex and Religion in the Bible, Calum Carmichael deciphers sexual metaphor and explores the links between biblical laws that regulate sexual activity and narrative exploits of beloved matriarchs and patriarchs. For preachers, homileticians/teachers and theologians who appreciate better understanding the subtle sexual nuances and symbolism of language and possible ways the laws evolved as a result of lived experiences of biblical actors, they will be intrigued by Carmichael’s approach.
When Carmichael examines the story of Jesus’ interaction with the Samaritan woman at the well (John 4:27), he refers to it as a sexual encounter because of the sexual symbolism of the water. Water, according to Carmichael, is biblically associated with female sexuality (Prov 5:15, 5:18, 9:17). Therefore, when Jesus invites the woman to partake of living water, he is in effect seducing her.

Thoughts?

@Rival @RestlessSoul @exchemist @Augustus @Treks @Brickjectivity @metis
Thanks for this, it's certainly interesting. But I'm not sure I can usefully comment, really.

I'm aware that Jesus and Mary Magdalen is a thing people sometimes speculate about. I had not been aware of speculations about the woman at the well - though she's certainly a lively and bold interlocutor with Christ, in the story.
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
I wasn't aware of that interpretation of John's Gospel, but the conflation of romantic with spiritual love, in which God is referred to as The Beloved, is a recurring theme with Sufi poets such as Rumi and Attar. And then of course, there's the Song of Solomon.

A related conceit in Sufi poetry, is the equation of drunkeness with spiritual ecstasy.
 
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Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
Speculation is only speculation, nothing more, sorry.

As @Rival noted this is not 'speculation' but rather informed by the narrative construct, type-scene, literary motifs and linguistics of the texts in question.

The original reader of the Fourth Gospel would have been prepared by the betrothal type-scene and narrative framework (which the chapter conforms to exactly) as well as the wedding at Cana and John the Baptist referring to himself as the 'bestman' hearing the bridegroom's joy from the bridal chamber, to anticipate a 'sexual encounter' - that is courtship - and this is validated by the language and allusions that Jesus subsequently uses in his conversation with 'Photini', namely: euphemisms, double entendres and innuendos.

The conversation is chock full of culturally-specific euphemisms, innuendos and double entendres alluding to romantic material in the Torah, Proverbs and the Nevi'im (prophets). Here is just one example of the multi-layered subtext at play here (there are so many intertextual allusions that the Fourth Evangelist is working with here from the Tanakh that I'd need to write a thesis myself to demonstrate to you!):

"Drink water from your own cistern,
flowing water from your own well.
Should your springs be scattered abroad,
streams of water in the streets?
Let them be for yourself alone
and not for sharing with strangers.
Let your fountain be blessed,
and rejoice in the wife of your youth,
a lovely deer, a graceful doe.
May her breasts satisfy you at all times;
may you be intoxicated always by her love."​
Now, let's compare with the language deployed by Jesus in his conversation with Photini in John 4 - and then breakdown the actual linguistics:

7A Samaritan woman came to draw water, and Jesus said to her, ‘Give me a drink. 8(His disciples had gone to the city to buy food.) 9The Samaritan woman said to him, ‘How is it that you, a Jew, ask a drink of me, a woman of Samaria?’ (Jews do not share things in common with Samaritans.) 10Jesus answered her, ‘If you knew the gift of God, and who it is that is saying to you, “Give me a drink”, you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water.’
11The woman said to him, ‘Sir, you have no bucket, and the well is deep. Where do you get that living water? 12Are you greater than our ancestor Jacob, who gave us the well, and with his sons and his flocks drank from it?’ 13Jesus said to her, ‘Everyone who drinks of this water will be thirsty again, 14but those who drink of the water that I will give them will never be thirsty. The water that I will give will become in them a spring of water gushing up to eternal life.’ 15The woman said to him, ‘Sir, give me this water, so that I may never be thirsty or have to keep coming here to draw water.’
16Jesus said to her, ‘Go, call your husband, and come back.’ 17The woman answered him, ‘I have no husband.’ Jesus said to her, ‘You are right in saying, “I have no husband”; 18for you have had five husbands, and the one you have now is not your husband. What you have said is true!’
The verbal coquetry of this scene, modelled after the betrothal type-scenes in the Torah where Jacob meets his future wife Rachel at a well whilst he's watering his flocks/livestock (itself a symbol of fecundity and wealth) and Isaac meets Rebekah and Moses meets Zipporah, would have been unmistakable to the original first century Jewish or Samaritan reader. In the biblical context, a well is tantamount to a modern-day bar or even say a dating app.

Here is what one of the scholars above, Jo-Ann Brandt, has to say:

1691328272504.png


1691328196344.png
 
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Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
We have here Jesus operating on 'two spheres' - the earthly, the man from below, who is literally courting a woman he's attracted to/fancies and the heavenly, the man from above (the Word made flesh, sarx in Greek) who is speaking of eternal truths and calling Photini to salvation. She is initially only operating on the earthly sphere, so at first she sees yet another dude sitting there at her well where she's trying to get some peace and quiet chancing his luck, hence her initial rebuff of his request to have a drink. What's more, this bloke isn't even a Samaritan - he's of that other closely related religion, Judaism and ethnicity Judean, and their two peoples consider each other 'unclean' according to purity laws. So she's like, "who the heck do you think you are coming onto my turf, where my ancestors lived and worshipped in view of my holy site, Mount Gerizim, where your people - the Jews - destroyed my people's Temple, and flirting with me? You have some brass neck mate."

As the conversation develops, both parties realize that there is real chemistry and she starts being coy with him, firstly by intimating that he doesn't have a 'bucket' and her well is deep, then by suggesting that he can't hope to compete with her ancestor Jacob and his twelve sons and livestock, who actually drank from this well and successfully married Rachel - then she opens herself to the possibility of a relationship. At that moment, Jesus drops the money shot - effectively asking in a round about way, "do you have a boyfriend/husband / are you single?" and then he reveals that he has supernatural, omniscient knowledge of her past and current relationships which a normal human being could not possess. And the conversation starts to move towards the 'heavenly', eternal sphere without losing the earthly dimension, as Photini becomes enlightened by Christ - and also the political situation between their two peoples and their religious differences.

Photini represents her people, the Samaritans - she's had five husbands, known in Hebrew as ba'alim and is now a concubine/co-habitant. This same word is used for both 'husbands' and 'baals' (pagan gods), because women in that culture referred to their spouse as 'my lord' and also to gods or 'Lords'. Scholars say the Samaritans had five male gods, called “Baals” — the Canaanite word for “husbands” or “lords” (see Hosea 2:16) — one for each of the five peoples of Samaria (Josephus emphasizes the number five when he refers to the cults of the Samaritans). So, God incarnate is calling the Samaritans back into covental relationship with Him, YHWH-God the true husband in the form of Jesus, the Bridegroom-Messiah. God has returned in human form, incarnate, to reclaim his bride. And he's calling them back into covenant with Him through Photini, the Samaritan woman, whom He has chosen and whose own life experiences bear a remarkable concordance with that of her people's history. By the end of the narrative, she becomes the first missionary of the gospel to people beyond Judea/Galilee and Judaism.

Interestingly, scholars are divided over whether the sixth man that she 'has now' but that isn't her husband is an actual other man she's living with or a third person manner of speaking by which Jesus is referring to himself in this betrothal context. The Greek syntax / sentence structure could admit of both possibilities, arguably. The number six, as in also the sixth hour of the day (noon likely) at which they meet at the well, recalls the seven days of Genesis - the sixth day when God created humankind in his nature, as male and female. Jesus is the new, life-giving Adam.
 
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Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
I wasn't aware of that interpretation of John's Gospel, but the conflation of romantic with spiritual love, in which God is referred to as The Beloved, is a recurring theme with Sufi poets such as Rumi and Attar. And then of course, there's the Song of Solomon.

A related conceit in Sufi poetry, is the equation of drunkeness with spiritual ecstasy.

Great post - I agree!
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
@Rival @RestlessSoul @Estro Felino @Brickjectivity Also of note is that the narrative makes quite clear how the scene appeared to the disciples, as well, when they returned:


27 Just then his disciples came. They were astonished that he was speaking with a woman, but no one said, “What do you want?” or, “Why are you speaking with her?” 28 Then the woman left her water jar and went back to the city. She said to the people, 29 “Come and see a man who told me everything I have ever done! He cannot be the Messiah,[k] can he?” 30 They left the city and were on their way to him.
As one scholar notes:


1691331281956.png

1691331563046.png
 
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1213

Well-Known Member
The verbal coquetry of this scene, modelled after the betrothal type-scenes in the Torah where Jacob meets his future wife Rachel at a well whilst he's watering his flocks/livestock (itself a symbol of fecundity and wealth) and Isaac meets Rebekah and Moses meets Zipporah, would have been unmistakable to the original first century Jewish or Samaritan reader. In the biblical context, a well is tantamount to a modern-day bar or even say a dating app.
Sorry, I think that is too far fetched. If I would read everything with that standard, it could be turned into euphemisms, double entendres and innuendos. I don't think that is justified.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
This is more than speculation. It is a theory using literary motifs found in the Hebrew Bible that relate to sex and relationships. We find the same in Ruth with Boaz' 'feet' (sex organs). Your comment strikes as not wanting to engage with the material.
Yes, it is a theory. And I understand one can read things into a text. But, in the end of the day, it may not still be true. Some people can read anything as euphemisms, double entendres and innuendos. I think that tells more about the reader than the writer. One reason why I think the theory is not correct is that it doesn't fit into the context.
 

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
Yes, it is a theory. And I understand one can read things into a text. But, in the end of the day, it may not still be true. Some people can read anything as euphemisms, double entendres and innuendos. I think that tells more about the reader than the writer. One reason why I think the theory is not correct is that it doesn't fit into the context.
Why do you believe Jesus asked after the woman's husband?
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
Why do you believe Jesus asked after the woman's husband?

The request makes absolutely no sense in the context and structure of the conversation, looking like an abrupt change of topic, unless one understands the subtext that preceded it.

And the references are pretty overt - the scene is set up exactly to 'type' according to the template provided in the Tanakh. The preceding passages at the end of chapter 3 even lead the reader to anticipate a sexual encounter/courtship, even before we find out that he'll be meeting a woman at a well to use the exact biblical language from Proverbs and Songs that refers to sexual longing and satisfaction. John the Baptist refers to himself as Jesus's 'best-man' at his effective eschatological stag-do:

25 Now a discussion about purification arose between John’s disciples and a Jew.[j] 26 They came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, the one who was with you across the Jordan, to whom you testified, here he is baptizing, and all are going to him.” 27 John answered, “No one can receive anything except what has been given from heaven. 28 You yourselves are my witnesses that I said, ‘I am not the Messiah,[k] but I have been sent ahead of him.’ 29 He who has the bride is the bridegroom. The friend of the bridegroom who stands and hears him rejoices greatly at the bridegroom’s voice. For this reason my joy has been fulfilled. 30 He must increase, but I must decrease.”[l]​
(John 3:25-30)​
As one scholar has noted, bluntly:

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Its after this set-up that Jesus goes to the well to find a 'mate', effectively, just like Jacob and Isaac and Moses etc. did before him.
 
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