The Male Gaze and Fanservice in mass media

[Riverwolf]

If all the episodes have stupid sex scenes and bad acting then overall it's going to suck. Nothing against the books I haven't read them.

Read them. (Though I personally thought the acting was fine.)

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

Read them. (Though I personally thought the acting was fine.)

Maybe... I'm cautious of books that become so commercially popular.
And why do the brown people have to be part of the "savage" tribe things like that get on my tits.

 

[Riverwolf]

Maybe... I'm cautious of books that become so commercially popular.

Understandable. My usual measure is the kind of person who heaps praise on books.

Plus, the first book was published back in '96. It didn't get extremely popular until a few years ago.

And why do the brown people have to be part of the "savage" tribe things like that get on my tits.

They're from a warm climate, and in any case, the Dothraki seem to be rather like the Huns, made up of lots of ethnicities. Some of them naturally have brown skin, but some of them appeared to be Caucasian with heavy tans. Furthermore, not all the brown-skinned people are barbrarians.

Even furthermore, they're not the only barbarians. There's plenty of barbarians in the North, who do play important roles in the book. It honestly seems like a very accurate representation of post-Roman Europe.

 

[Poeticus]

Mystic,

Sorry for hijacking your thread with GoT/ASOIF.

M.V.

 

[Penumbra]

I only saw the first episode of GoT (friends made me watch it), and I didn't read any of the books. I remember there were naked people during at least one point, but overall, I just didn't pay much attention to the episode.

 

[dust1n]

- Assuming that the Male Gaze and Fanservice occur at a rate that is noteworthy, do you see them occuring less often or more often than in times past? How so?

I suppose that would depend on location, time, and means of comparison. My guess would be that it is, obviously, occurring more in number, but less in the ratio aspect.

- If there were more female writers, directors, producers, and artists were employed and/or commissioned to produce works for the masses, do you see them offering more of a Female Gaze? Or do you see more or less the status quo continuing unless there are more socio-political progress made outside the humanities and the arts/entertainment industries?

I would imagine it would. Writing for the opposite sex, especially any sort of internal story, is incredibly difficult to do. Plenty of people who try end up with narrow characters. I have reason to believe that women find the same difficulty writing men.

- Assuming that the prevalence of the Male Gaze and Fanservice provide a wall of opportunity for womens equality, what solutions do you have to change it?

Thanks bunches, and Happy Friday!

When ever I watch the majority of any film or TV, I find too much amusement too actually take them seriously. I suspect there is little I can do outside of creating media that tries to be greatly skilled and articulate at portraying people who have circumstances that differ from the writer.

That, and I guess, ignore media or any associated ads that blatantly do such a thing. Don't bother giving them money or their advertisers money.

Also, just not being afraid to talk about it. I dunno.

 

[Riverwolf]

I would imagine it would. Writing for the opposite sex, especially any sort of internal story, is incredibly difficult to do. Plenty of people who try end up with narrow characters. I have reason to believe that women find the same difficulty writing men.

It's really not difficult at all. I'd write women pretty much the same way I'd write men.

The only times I'd need input from women is if I'm writing about experiences that men simply cannot have, whether that be due to the setting, or motherhood, etc.

 

[Alceste]

I suppose that would depend on location, time, and means of comparison. My guess would be that it is, obviously, occurring more in number, but less in the ratio aspect.



I would imagine it would. Writing for the opposite sex, especially any sort of internal story, is incredibly difficult to do. Plenty of people who try end up with narrow characters. I have reason to believe that women find the same difficulty writing men.



When ever I watch the majority of any film or TV, I find too much amusement too actually take them seriously. I suspect there is little I can do outside of creating media that tries to be greatly skilled and articulate at portraying people who have circumstances that differ from the writer.

That, and I guess, ignore media or any associated ads that blatantly do such a thing. Don't bother giving them money or their advertisers money.

Also, just not being afraid to talk about it. I dunno.

I don't find it difficult to write men. It's only when you've managed to convince yourself that there are insurmountable barriers of extreme difference that it becomes hard to write a character. I might find it hard to write, for example, a Japanese person, or an Inuit, because their culture and background is so different from my own. But a man with a familiar background story and cultural context? Pish posh. No trouble at all. I don't perceive people as an inaccessible "other" purely due to the state of their genitals.

Alexander McCall Smith has made an entire career out of writing great women. Terry Pratchett is at his best when he's writing women, IMHO. Stephen King's women are very believable. The Cohen brothers films usually feature great female characters. Mike Leigh's female characters are spectacular.

OTOH, when I was in film school with a mostly male class I had to read parts for a lot of REALLY BAD female characters - they apparently couldn't bring themselves to write in a convincing female person. They were basically only able to write women as ruthless, sex starved sluts or kind supportive wives / girlfriends. It's an error in perspective. It isn't difficult unless you MAKE it difficult by exclusively viewing women through a filter of whether or not a man gets to have sex with them, and what kind of sex it is. As soon as you lose those goggles, it's easy as pie. Just write a believable character, then make it female.

 

[dust1n]

It's really not difficult at all. I'd write women pretty much the same way I'd write men.

The only times I'd need input from women is if I'm writing about experiences that men simply cannot have, whether that be due to the setting, or motherhood, etc.

That's cool. I really find the entire process of writing incredibly difficult. And perhaps my self-consciousness is too strong as a result of a possibly low suspension of disbelief and constantly finding female characters to be totally unbelievable, as well as male characters from female writers... and this of course is in no way limited to gender.

 

[dust1n]

I don't find it difficult to write men. It's only when you've managed to convince yourself that there are insurmountable barriers of extreme difference that it becomes hard to write a character. I might find it hard to write, for example, a Japanese person, or an Inuit, because their culture and background is so different from my own. But a man with a familiar background story and cultural context? Pish posh. No trouble at all. I don't perceive people as an inaccessible "other" purely due to the state of their genitals.

Nor do I, but I have found that all people are inaccessible by virtue of having a different body then me. I find most people to have a background story that is basically insurmountable in mind.

Alexander McCall Smith has made an entire career out of writing great women. Terry Pratchett is at his best when he's writing women, IMHO. Stephen King's women are very believable. The Cohen brothers films usually feature great female characters. Mike Leigh's female characters are spectacular.

I didn't mean to imply that such a task was impossible, but all the people you mentioned are usually noted for their exceptional writing ability.

OTOH, when I was in film school with a mostly male class I had to read parts for a lot of REALLY BAD female characters - they apparently couldn't bring themselves to write in a convincing female person. They were basically only able to write women as ruthless, sex starved sluts or kind supportive wives / girlfriends. It's an error in perspective. It isn't difficult unless you MAKE it difficult by exclusively viewing women through a filter of whether or not a man gets to have sex with them, and what kind of sex it is. As soon as you lose those goggles, it's easy as pie. Just write a believable character, then make it female.

I guess it just ain't that easy for me. The female characters I'm working on are taking me such a long time... I mean, all the characters are -- they are almost all based on people and situations I know. I was never granted access into these others minds about their intentional or rationalizations of events etc. Perhaps it's difficult for me because I generally find individuals difficult to understand.

 

[Alceste]

Nor do I, but I have found that all people are inaccessible by virtue of having a different body then me. I find most people to have a background story that is basically insurmountable in mind.



I didn't mean to imply that such a task was impossible, but all the people you mentioned are usually noted for their exceptional writing ability.



I guess it just ain't that easy for me. The female characters I'm working on are taking me such a long time... I mean, all the characters are -- they are almost all based on people and situations I know. I was never granted access into these others minds about their intentional or rationalizations of events etc. Perhaps it's difficult for me because I generally find individuals difficult to understand.

In truth, if you feel like you don't "get" other people - how they feel, what makes them tick, what they want, etc. then it will be hard to write compelling characters of any gender or background.

That's not to say you have to be RIGHT about feeling you know what makes people tick. You just need a little imagination. Maybe more than a little. Good writing is equal parts inspiration, observation and imagination.

 

[dust1n]

In truth, if you feel like you don't "get" other people - how they feel, what makes them tick, what they want, etc. then it will be hard to write compelling characters of any gender or background.

That's not to say you have to be RIGHT about feeling you know what makes people tick. You just need a little imagination. Maybe more than a little. Good writing is equal parts inspiration, observation and imagination.

I just find it difficult. It takes me a while. I have to put a lot of thought into it -- story boards, arches written out, examination between the plausibility of actions and the desire of outcome. I'm also trying to write realism with in depth characters. I really can't ever see it being easy to do in my off time. Constructing a large story takes larges amount of time and consideration.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

As for fanservice, I actually didn't realize it happened much outside of Japanese anime/manga/video games. Outside of horror movies I can't think of very many examples. But then again I consider most of what's out there in the mainstream to be utter crap and not worth my time, so it really isn't something I see much of, unless I'm indulging in Japanese animation.
The male gaze though is an interesting idea. It's not something I was consciously aware of, but looking back on the media I indulge in it is very prevalent. And pretty much the only things I can think of that have any sort of female perspective are things produced/created/made (the project itself, not necessarily the entire production team) by women.

 

[Penumbra]

With all of the talk about how to write male/female characters, I figured I'd put this here just for the lolz.

Writing Gender-Specific Dialogue.

^_^

 

[MysticSang'ha]

With all of the talk about how to write male/female characters, I figured I'd put this here just for the lolz.

Writing Gender-Specific Dialogue.

^_^

So, dust1n, make sure your female characters know about fashion details and colors, and are bubbling over with emotion. Now go write, young man!

 

[dust1n]

So, dust1n, make sure your female characters know about fashion details and colors, and are bubbling over with emotion. Now go write, young man!

Of course! I'll be sure to note in detail the lengths to which my female characters find themselves immersed in a mental space of fashion, colors, and emotions. I doubt anything could go wrong there.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

With all of the talk about how to write male/female characters, I figured I'd put this here just for the lolz.

Writing Gender-Specific Dialogue.

^_^

I think it may have been in a later re-release of Carrier where I read this, but apparently Stephen King nearly gave up on that book because of his lack of having a female perspective putting up a wall of challenges for him. I even recall him mentioning he didn't even know how much which ever feminine hygiene product it was that the vending machine in the locker room in the opening scene cost (It's been awhile since I read it, I think it was wipes, maybe tampons, but I really don't remember).
The subject was also brought up in a creative writing class I took last year, in that creating characters of the opposite sex is a challenge for most people. Personally I'd rather focus on creating the character that I want to create rather than worry about gender stereotypes. Some characters will naturally fall in line with gender stereotypes, but emotional men and headstrong women have found their places in my stories. And when I create characters, once I have a vague idea of who they will be, the next step is usually a good death for them because not too many characters live through my stories. And then once I have established how they will die (sometimes the method is thought up first), I typically fill in the rest of character blanks in order to lead this character to it's death. I've got some fun ones planned for my next story.