The masked truth....

[Dan From Smithville]

It must've been an early one.
I've been confused for over half a century.

Are you sure? Could it be that you are confused about that?

 

[Revoltingest]

Are you sure? Could it be that you are confused about that?

It's more than possible...it's quite likely.
Do I know you?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I don't think you should be surprised when this approach does not get the results you are looking for. I don't think you are asking questions in good faith, you are trying to win (whatever that means to you). Instead of trying to make the other person look foolish, I would suggest you take a step back and ask questions with the genuine intention to learn something.

Yeah, you have a point. But it works both ways. Most humans when something is at play, play to win. I learn from time to time. I am still learning to this day, but what I have noticed in some humans, is that for some core beliefs they get stuck and they are not willing to learn.

 

[Quetzal]

Most humans when something is at play, play to win.

But no one is competing here, there is no prize for shutting down the most arguments, is there?

but what I have noticed in some humans, is that for some core beliefs they get stuck and they are not willing to learn.

Do you believe you have such a profound understanding of other people that you can accurately and efficiently identify these beliefs in others?

 

[Dan From Smithville]

It's more than possible...it's quite likely.
Do I know you?

What?

Can I still get fries with that?

 

[exchemist]

On a side note, has anyone apart from me noticed how attractive some women are in these masks? I begin to understand the muslim culture on this point. A bit.

One focuses on the eyes, as that is all one can use to judge someone's expression in conversation. And actually, so many women have rather beautiful and expressive eyes. I had never studied them so intently before, as there was no need.

I wonder if women are finding the same with men.......

(And I wonder if the sellers of eye make up are enjoying a boom.)

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

But no one is competing here, there is no prize for shutting down the most arguments, is there?

Well, it goes deeper than just shutting down an argument, because that opens up for another. For example for all variants of in effect Objective Authority and no, that is not unique to religion, you have to shut that one down, because otherwise an argument based on that there is no Objective Authority won't get off the ground. That is the psychology of the second law of classical logic in the western tradition.

Do you believe you have such a profound understanding of other people that you can accurately and efficiently identify these beliefs in others?

Well, you could in me. So yes, sometimes you can make a model of another person's beliefs and intentions.

 

[Quetzal]

Well, it goes deeper than just shutting down an argument...

My point is you don't have to shut down an argument at all. When you take a combative stance, it is natural that others are going to fight you. Perhaps you could consider restructuring your approach to encourage peaceful discourse instead?

Well, you could in me. So yes, sometimes you can make a model of another person's beliefs and intentions.

I could, but it wouldn't be accurate. It is possible that you overvalue your own ability to see the intentions of others. It is incredibly difficult to see one's own intentions, much less those of other people. We are incredibly complex and the way you see the world is the not the same way I see the world, or the same way @Revoltingest sees the world, or the same way @BSM1 sees the world. We are all shaped by different influences and for you to completely ignore that and assume you know better is a recipe for failure. I think that is what you are seeing in your current dialogues.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

My point is you don't have to shut down an argument at all. When you take a combative stance, it is natural that others are going to fight you. Perhaps you could consider restructuring your approach to encourage peaceful discourse instead?


I could, but it wouldn't be accurate. It is possible that you overvalue your own ability to see the intentions of others. It is incredibly difficult to see one's own intentions, much less those of other people. We are incredibly complex and the way you see the world is the not the same way I see the world, or the same way @Revoltingest sees the world, or the same way @BSM1 sees the world. We are all shaped by different influences and for you to completely ignore that and assume you know better is a recipe for failure. I think that is what you are seeing in your current dialogues.

Yeah, you are right. Now then try to change someone who in effect have Truth on the side and deny that is even the case.
You are not the first one to point that out and yes, I get combative.

So no, I get the influences and the effect of the idea of really true truth. You know, I am right for how the world works. The joke is that I know that is not how the world works.

So this thread is already derailed.

Now since this is not in debates and I properly shouldn't debate, but I do want to learn more form you, how about if you want, start a thread in Interfaith Discussion about truth. No, I don't mean truth as per philosophy. I mean truth as faith.
I bet I can learn something from you and you might learn something from me.

Regards and love
Mikkel

 

[PureX]

Why does the US get bad rep for our culture? We think of others, families, etc. We just have a different perspective on how we raise and live.

Yes, an incredibly selfish perspective. We take, and take, and take everything we can get from our society, our government, our fellow citizens, our commercial engagements; all for our own personal benefit. But when we're asked to give something back, for the benefit of others, or for the benefit of our society as a whole, we are outraged! We scream and howl about how horribly oppressed we are! We treat our fellow citizens like our most hated enemy. We accuse them of all sorts of heinous behaviors and intentions. We take up arms and march in the streets, like terrorists. Just because we've been asked to wear a mask in public for the safety of our fellow citizens. That's how insanely selfish we have become in this country! And we don't even see just how insane this is because selfishness has been our way of life since we were born. Greed and ignorance are considered virtues in our culture. Our president is the poster-boy for greed and ignorance to the point of outrageous dishonesty catastrophic incompetence, and millions of Americans love him for it. Millions more are perfectly willing to tolerate and even enable it so long as they figure they will gain some personal advantage from it.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Yes, an incredibly selfish perspective. We take, and take, and take everything we can get from our society, our government, our fellow citizens, our commercial engagements; all for our own personal benefit. But when we're asked to give something back, for the benefit of others, or for the benefit of our society as a whole, we are outraged! We scream and howl about how horribly oppressed we are! We treat our fellow citizens like our most hated enemy. We accuse them of all sorts of heinous behaviors and intentions. We take up arms and march in the streets, like terrorists. Just because we've been asked to wear a mask in public for the safety of our fellow citizens. That's how insanely selfish we have become in this country! And we don't even see just how insane this is because selfishness has been our way of life since we were born. Greed and ignorance are considered virtues in our culture. Our president is the poster-boy for greed and ignorance to the point of outrageous dishonesty catastrophic incompetence, and millions of Americans love him for it. Millions more are perfectly willing to tolerate and even enable it so long as they figure they will gain some personal advantage from it.

What about individual Americans like you (right?) and me who make up America?

We can talk about America's bad points all we want, but I'm sure our neighbors aren't quite promoting the stereotype.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I can help: the media. You see, good news does not sell newspapers. We have known this for a long time. International outlets pick up most of their information regarding US culture, politics, etc; from US news sources (makes sense). The problem is that the American media has become such a cesspool of misinformation and sensationalism, that you would be forgiven for believing that the US is, how did Trump put it... a "sh**hole" country. The reality is quite different, in my experience.

Individual Americans are actually quite charitable on an individual level (in my experience). Meaning, if my car breaks down in front of a random house, the probability of the owner of said house assisting me would be quite high. I have had numerous occasions in my tenure as an American in which I have required assistance from strangers and I have been pleasantly surprised each time.

But you don't see that on CNN, Fox, MSNBC; etc. What do you see instead? A perpetual stream of horrible things and examples of the worst that America has to offer. Sure, she makes her fair share of mistakes and no government is without corruption, but I will say that America gets harshly criticized. Some of it is earned, but some of it isn't.

True. When I have seizures out on the road, people stop and call 911-ask if I'm on right on their way to work etc. People smile here and have a genuine sense of hospitality. The COVID thing kind of affected people but in general, I agree. Here is some Positive News Home - Positive News from London. I haven't seen anything like this in the U.S. I was told by one American that they used to have positive news during the black and white days but I wasn't raised then.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

What about individual Americans like you (right?) and me who make up America?

We can talk about America's bad points all we want, but I'm sure our neighbors aren't quite promoting the stereotype.

I will try to answer.
First you have to account for that your neighbors are not just Americans as your neighbors. So how they treat you don't account for how they treat non-neighbors.
Secondly when you look at non-neighbors you have to have an idea about how they not only treat strangers, but how they treat what they do, which can have an effect on humans, they never meet.
Thirdly you have to look at their core values for what makes a human a human, what are the human core values, how do they treat diversity and so on.

In short, your neighbor could be nice to you and make her living as a professional contract killer. Yeah, I know, it is an absurd example, but it is absurd to get the point through.

 

[Quetzal]

Yes, an incredibly selfish perspective. We take, and take, and take everything we can get from our society, our government, our fellow citizens, our commercial engagements; all for our own personal benefit. But when we're asked to give something back, for the benefit of others, or for the benefit of our society as a whole, we are outraged! We scream and howl about how horribly oppressed we are! We treat our fellow citizens like our most hated enemy. We accuse them of all sorts of heinous behaviors and intentions. We take up arms and march in the streets, like terrorists. Just because we've been asked to wear a mask in public for the safety of our fellow citizens. That's how insanely selfish we have become in this country! And we don't even see just how insane this is because selfishness has been our way of life since we were born. Greed and ignorance are considered virtues in our culture. Our president is the poster-boy for greed and ignorance to the point of outrageous dishonesty catastrophic incompetence, and millions of Americans love him for it. Millions more are perfectly willing to tolerate and even enable it so long as they figure they will gain some personal advantage from it.

I don't subscribe to this idea because it completely negates the individual. In fact, it doesn't even try. You are applying a single label to 329 million people. It isn't accurate and drastically over simplifies the narrative.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I don't subscribe to this idea because it completely negates the individual. In fact, it doesn't even try. You are applying a single label to 329 million people. It isn't accurate and drastically over simplifies the narrative.

Yes, it does and yet, there is a point. A part of the American mythos is the idea of profit. Everybody can be become a billionaire. That idea is in part greet and profit and the celebration of the strong human or more likely man. Look at Donald Trump and the imagine of him as he tries to sell it. It is about wining over the other part and making a profit on it. Other humans are out to get you and you have to win over them. That is his message.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I will try to answer.
First you have to account for that your neighbors are not just Americans as your neighbors. So how they treat you don't account for how they treat non-neighbors.
Secondly when you look at non-neighbors you have to have an idea about how they not only treat strangers, but how they treat what they do, which can have an effect on humans, they never meet.
Thirdly you have to look at their core values for what makes a human a human, what are the human core values, how do they treat diversity and so on.

In short, your neighbor could be nice to you and make her living as a professional contract killer. Yeah, I know, it is an absurd example, but it is absurd to get the point through.

I read it. That's negative thinking. That implies that I (making a point) can be a killer too just my neighbors don't know it. On a positive note, though, individually we don't all fit the American-negativity stereotype (or the hypothetical analogy of such). I'd probably say the majority of Americans don't even conform to half of the things non-Americans believe is true about us.

Here's a list of American values
https://www.bu.edu/isso/files/pdf/AmericanValues.pdf

While one shoe doesn't fit all, that's pretty much the consensus.

My point, though, is not everyone fits the stereotype. Hypothetically, anyone can a killer, or so have you. Though, if I know I can be nice I try and extend that to other people as well since I'm not special in those regards.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

...

Here's a list of American values
https://www.bu.edu/isso/files/pdf/AmericanValues.pdf

...

And you agree with them all?

 

[PureX]

What about individual Americans like you (right?) and me who make up America?

We can talk about America's bad points all we want, but I'm sure our neighbors aren't quite promoting the stereotype.

And yet we do nothing while our culture and our country sink deeper and deeper into an abyss of selfishness, greed, and stupidity. We do nothing because we're all just looking out for ourselves as things keep getting worse. In fact, the worse they get, the more self-centered, exhausted, isolated, and hopeless we become. We cling to our silly fantasies about how free we all are, when we're more enslaved, now, in this country than we have ever been in our lives. We are living in a giant labor camp where we all work for a few millionaires and billionaires who can never and will never get enough money or power. People who will happily let us die, and even encourage it, if we aren't actively working to make them even richer and more powerful than they already are. People who own and control everything that we need to live, and so own and control us, from birth to death.

Yeah, the land of the free and the brave ... my a$$. It's a land of cowards and fools being led to their own demise by their own willful delusions. And a whole globe full of countries all scrambling to follow us into hell.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I was disappointed that this post was not about a new superhero. 3/10, would not visit again.

That's was my second choice, so thanks for the input.

So far all I heard is just the company line repeated...but thanks, everyone, for playing.

Well perhaps consider this: the people who put themselves at the most risk to help those who've already got some airborne virus -- that would be the doctors and nurses who care for them -- wear masks and put masks on their patients.

Now, also consider this: our bodies do actually have natural protections against a lot of things, and exposure in small doses is generally much more safe than exposure in large doses. Getting a few (or evven several hundred) virus particles in contact with cells in your respiratory tract can often be dealt with by your body without previous immunity. It's only when your body is hit with big numbers that it becomes overwhelmed. And both sides of an interaction between people, infected or not, are protected to some extent from large dose exposure by the masks on both sides.

And what's the result? Given how exposed they are, it is absolutely astonishing how few doctors and nurses actually get sick themselves.

Arguing with success is usually not the very best idea.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

You are indeed less valuable than I am.
(It's nothing personal. You're just not me.)
But even lower value are those who lecture us in all caps.

Okay, I'll go lower...PUT ON A DARNED MASK!