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The Messiah

DavidSMoore

Member
The following well known passage of Luke 2:8-11 announces the birth of Jesus and specifically calls him the Messiah:

Now in that same region there were shepherds living in the fields, keeping watch over their flock by night. Then an angel of the Lord stood before them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were terrified. But the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid, for see, I am bringing to you good news of great joy for all the people: to you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is the Messiah, the Lord.”
(Luke 2:8 - 11, NRSVue*)

The Greek word for Messiah is “Christ.” So whenever Christians call Jesus the Christ they are affirming that Jesus is indeed the Messiah. The Hebrew word “Messiah” means “Anointed One.” Many persons were anointed in the Old Testament. Kings were anointed. Priests were anointed. Even Cyrus the Great of Persia was anointed. (Isaiah 45:1.)

In the New Testament Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist. Baptism wasn’t the same as anointment. Baptism was done with water and was supposed to reflect repentance and a cleansing of the soul, whereas anointment was done with oil and was part of a ceremony bestowing authority. Jesus was anointed once, in Bethany, by an unnamed woman who poured a flask of nard over his head (Mark 14:3). But that was done in preparation for his burial, not for an ascent to power. So Jesus wasn’t really anointed-- at least, not in the formal sense of a ceremony conferring power and authority. In fact, according to John, Jesus actively avoided assuming temporal power (John 6:15). But Luke does say this:
When he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, he went to the synagogue on the Sabbath day, as was his custom. He stood up and read, and the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was given to him. He unrolled the scroll and found the place where it was written:
“The Spirit of the Lord is upon me,
because he has anointed me
to bring good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim release to the captives
and recovery of sight to the blind,
to set free those who are oppressed,
to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”
(Luke 4:16-19, NRSVue)

The implication is that Jesus was anointed by the Holy Spirit, not by any earthly power, and not as part of a formal ceremony. (The relevant passage from Isaiah can be found in Chapter 61.)

Generally what Christians mean when they say Jesus is the Christ is that Jesus is the person whose coming was predicted by the Old Testament prophets. Here’s what the Catholic Catechism has to say about the Messiah:

Many Jews and even certain Gentiles who shared their hope recognized in Jesus the fundamental attributes of the messianic “Son of David,” promised by God to Israel. Jesus accepted his rightful title of Messiah, though with some reserve because it was understood by some of his contemporaries in too human a sense, as essentially political.
(Catholic Catechism, 439; Part 1, Section 2, Chapter 2, Article 2, II)

But did the Old Testament authors predict the coming of Jesus specifically?

Curiously, the title “Messiah” doesn’t appear in the Old Testament. (At least not in the RSV or the NRSVue. It appears twice in the KJV, both times in the book of Daniel.) But the word “savior” does show up repeatedly. For example, in 2 Samuel 2-4, the author says that the LORD is his savior who saves him from violence and from his enemies. That’s a portrait of salvation in the here and now, not in an imagined afterlife. And the savior in this case is God, not a separate being. But there are a few passages that describe a savior who is to arrive at some time in the future, as in this passage:

On that day there will be an altar to the LORD in the midst of the land of Egypt and a pillar to the LORD at its border. It will be a sign and a witness to the LORD of hosts in the land of Egypt; when they cry to the LORD because of oppressors, he will send them a savior and will defend and deliver them.
(Isaiah 19:19-21, NRSVue)

That passage is part of a longer narrative in which Isaiah says that Judah will conquer Egypt. That didn’t happen. Judah was conquered by the Neo-Babylonian empire in 597 BCE. Not a very accurate prediction.

I argued in this posting: The Garden of Eden that the Old Testament authors-- with the exception of the author of the book of Daniel-- did not believe in the Christian concept of the afterlife, with the resurrection of the dead, the last judgment, eternal life, and paradise.

In this posting: Morality of the Old Testament I showed that the Old Testament morality was about knowing and following the law given to Moses by God, and that some of those laws make no sense in the modern world. And Leviticus Chapter 4 describes a process for forgiving sins that involves animal sacrifice.

In this posting: New Testament Morality I argued that Jesus taught that his followers should forgive all sins except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit and should not turn sinners over to the authorities for punishment. In fact, in the story of the adulteress of John 7:53 – 8:11, Jesus actively disrupted the normal Jewish legal proceedings which would have resulted in the stoning to death of the adulterous woman.

So was Jesus really the savior whose coming was predicted by the Old Testament prophets? As I see it, no. The Old Testament authors didn’t believe any of Jesus’s most important teachings. They didn’t believe in his narrative about the resurrection of the dead, the last judgment, eternal life, and paradise. They didn’t believe in his teachings about forgiveness. As noted above, they had a completely different process for forgiving sins that involves animal sacrifice. They didn’t believe in his morality. And they expected that at the end of time everyone on Earth would be converted to Judaism: they would be worshiping the Jewish God (Yahweh), they would be observing Jewish law to the letter, and they would be observing all Jewish religious rites and festivals. As I see it, that’s very different from the vision of the end of time described by the New Testament authors. Why would the Old Testament authors have predicted the coming of a savior whose teachings were the opposite of their own? In my view, the answer is simple: they wouldn’t have, and therefore Jesus could not have been the savior whose coming was predicted by the Old Testament authors.

We have clear proof of the fallibility of the biblical “prophets” in the Bible itself. I have already mentioned Isaiah’s false prophecy concerning the conquest of Egypt above. Now consider every Christian’s favorite New Testament passage-- John 3:16:

“For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life.”
(John 3:16, NRSVue)

The key phrase “may not perish” is a tell. As I read the above passage, John wasn’t saying that the followers of Jesus of his time would die and would then be resurrected thousands of years later. He was saying that they would never die. And why would he say that? I think it’s because he believed that the resurrection of the dead would happen before his own generation had died out.

In fact all three of the other New Testament gospel authors believed exactly that. Matthew reports the following exchange between Jesus and his disciples:

When he was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will this be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”
(Matthew 24:3, NRSVue)

Jesus answers the second part of the question first, and then says (in Matthew 24:33) that the end of the age will happen before his generation has passed away. This story is repeated in Chapter 13 of the book of Mark. There is a similar narrative in Luke 17:20 - 37 and Luke 21:20 - 32, though Luke’s version has several differences. (This story is not repeated in the book of John.) Even so, the narratives in Mark and in Luke both repeat the same prediction that the end of time would occur before the passing of the then present generation. So this is evidence that Jesus’s most important prediction was wrong.

I think the conclusion is inescapable: the Old Testament authors were not prophets, and neither were the New Testament authors; and Jesus could not have been the Messiah.

* NRSVue = New Revised Standard Version, Updated Edition, published in 2019 by the National Council of Churches of the United States of America.

[Note: This is a revised version of a post submitted on May 22 that has been reviewed and approved by the RF staff.]
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
Curiously, the title “Messiah” doesn’t appear in the Old Testament.

Not true. Do you know how to properly search the old testament?

Daniel 9:26. It's a famous verse.
ותדע ותשכל מן־מצא דבר להשיב ולבנות ירושלם עד־משיח נגיד שבעים שבעה ושבעים ששים ושנים תשוב ונבנתה רחוב וחרוץ ובצוק העתים׃​
Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the command to restore and to build Jerusalem until the coming of an anointed prince shall be seven weeks; then for sixty two weeks it shall be built again, with squares and moat, but in a troubled time.​
 

DavidSMoore

Member
Not true. Do you know how to properly search the old testament? Daniel 9:26. It's a famous verse.
Ah, thank you for that. As you no doubt guessed I used the biblegateway.com search engine, with the Revised Standard Version or the New Revised Standard Version, Updated Edition as sources. When I searched for the word "messiah" I got no hits in the Old Testament. But when I ran it again with the word "anointed" I got 87 hits in the Old Testament. Thanks for setting me straight.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
The following well known passage of Luke 2:8-11 announces the birth of Jesus and specifically calls him the Messiah:
Hello, I just want 5o say that I really enjoyed your post. I'm nit picking minor mistakes. The general thrust of your post, that Jesus was not the Messiah, was spot on.

Do you think Luke is a reliable source for history?
The Greek word for Messiah is “Christ.” So whenever Christians call Jesus the Christ they are affirming that Jesus is indeed the Messiah.
Well yeah. The question is, are they correct? No. We thoroughly agree on that!
So Jesus wasn’t really anointed-- at least, not in the formal sense of a ceremony conferring power and authority. In fact, according to John, Jesus actively avoided assuming temporal power (John 6:15).
You got that right. Jesus was never anointed, nor was he the messiah.
The implication is that Jesus was anointed by the Holy Spirit
Nope, that's not how anointing works. It's literal oil pour on the head to indicate a position of power, such as prophets, kings, and high priests.
,Generally what Christians mean when they say Jesus is the Christ is that Jesus is the person whose coming was predicted by the Old Testament prophets. Here’s what the Catholic Catechism has to say about the Messiah:
Well, Catholics are Christians, so of course they believe Jesus was the Messiah. In fact, that assertion is the heart of their faith. However, they base this on NT passages. And they have a totally different idea of Messiah than the one in the Tanakh (OT). Christians think the Messiah is someone who will save them from their sins. In fact, the Messiah described by the Tanakh is simply a king who will rule Israel during the idylic Messianic Era.

The truth is, Jesus simply didn't fulfill the prophecies of the Tanakh. For example, this one:
"And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more." (Isaiah 2:4).
Curiously, the title “Messiah” doesn’t appear in the Old Testament. (At least not in the RSV or the NRSVue. It appears twice in the KJV, both times in the book of Daniel.)
I'm confused here. First you say it's not in the Tanakh, but then you say it occurs twice in the book of Daniel. FWIW the Hebrew word is not Messiah, but Moshiach. Messiah is simply the Anglicization of Moshiah.
But the word “savior” does show up repeatedly.
But just as you point out in the next quote, it refers to God, and "save" refers to a very earthly saving, such as when God delivered David from his enemies.
For example, in 2 Samuel 2-4, the author says that the LORD is his savior who saves him from violence and from his enemies. That’s a portrait of salvation in the here and now, not in an imagined afterlife.
Yeap. :)
And the savior in this case is God, not a separate being. But there are a few passages that describe a savior who is to arrive at some time in the future, as in this passage:
Yeap
Isaiah 43:11 "I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior."

That passage is part of a longer narrative in which Isaiah says that Judah will conquer Egypt. That didn’t happen. Judah was conquered by the Neo-Babylonian empire in 597 BCE. Not a very accurate prediction.
I'm not shy of saying that the Tanakh makes mistakes.

Jesus actively disrupted the normal Jewish legal proceedings which would have resulted in the stoning to death of the adulterous woman.
I agree.

So was Jesus really the savior whose coming was predicted by the Old Testament prophets? As I see it, no.
And that is the crux of your post, and why I appreciate it so much.
Thanks:)
 

DavidSMoore

Member
Hello, I just want 5o say that I really enjoyed your post. I'm nit picking minor mistakes. The general thrust of your post, that Jesus was not the Messiah, was spot on.

Do you think Luke is a reliable source for history?
Thank you for that-- I appreciate the feedback. :)
 

jimb

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Hello, I just want 5o say that I really enjoyed your post. I'm nit picking minor mistakes. The general thrust of your post, that Jesus was not the Messiah, was spot on.

Do you think Luke is a reliable source for history?

Well yeah. The question is, are they correct? No. We thoroughly agree on that!

You got that right. Jesus was never anointed, nor was he the messiah.

Nope, that's not how anointing works. It's literal oil pour on the head to indicate a position of power, such as prophets, kings, and high priests.

Well, Catholics are Christians, so of course they believe Jesus was the Messiah. In fact, that assertion is the heart of their faith. However, they base this on NT passages. And they have a totally different idea of Messiah than the one in the Tanakh (OT). Christians think the Messiah is someone who will save them from their sins. In fact, the Messiah described by the Tanakh is simply a king who will rule Israel during the idylic Messianic Era.

The truth is, Jesus simply didn't fulfill the prophecies of the Tanakh. For example, this one:
"And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more." (Isaiah 2:4).

I'm confused here. First you say it's not in the Tanakh, but then you say it occurs twice in the book of Daniel. FWIW the Hebrew word is not Messiah, but Moshiach. Messiah is simply the Anglicization of Moshiah.

But just as you point out in the next quote, it refers to God, and "save" refers to a very earthly saving, such as when God delivered David from his enemies.
For example, in 2 Samuel 2-4, the author says that the LORD is his savior who saves him from violence and from his enemies. That’s a portrait of salvation in the here and now, not in an imagined afterlife.
Yeap. :)

Yeap
Isaiah 43:11 "I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior."


I'm not shy of saying that the Tanakh makes mistakes.

I agree.


And that is the crux of your post, and why I appreciate it so much.
Thanks:)
Why do you deny what the Bible clearly says???

BTW, the Hebrew word is not "Moshiach". That is a translation. Duh! The Hebrew word is מָשִׁיחַ
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Why do you deny what the Bible clearly says???
I'm not sure what you are asking me about. Are you asking why I do not accept the Christian scriptures, aka the NT? Because I'm not a Christian, I'm a Jew. It's not different than why I also don't accept the Quran (I'm not Muslim) or the Book of Mormon (I'm not LDS). Why do you deny what the Vedas clearly say? Because you are not Hindu.
BTW, the Hebrew word is not "Moshiach". That is a translation. Duh! The Hebrew word is מָשִׁיחַ
Mashiach is not a translation, but a transliteration. That means that Mashiach is the way English phonics spells the identical, unchanged, untranslated word. (And by the way, Moshiach is simply the Ashkenazi pronunciation of the Hebrew word.)

To demonstrate the difference between transliteration and translation, here is the blessing over bread, first in Hebrew, then transliterated, then translated into English:

בָּרוּךְ אַתָּה, יְיָ אֱלֹהֵינוּ, מֶלֶךְ הָעוֹלָם הַמּוֹצִיא לֶחֶם מִן הָאָרֶץ.
Baruch ata Adonai, Eloheinu melech haolam, hamotzi lechem min haaretz.
Blessed are you, Lord our God, king of the universe, who brings forth bread from the earth.

I'm tempted to say "Duh," but I'd like to be kinder than your post.
 
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jimb

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I'm not sure what you are asking me about. Are you asking why I do not accept the Christian scriptures, aka the NT? Because I'm not a Christian, I'm a Jew. It's not different than why I also don't accept the Quran (I'm not Muslim) or the Book of Mormon (I'm not LDS). Why do you deny what the Vedas clearly say? Because you are not Hindu.

Mashiach is not a translation, but a transliteration. That means that Mashiach is the way English phonics spells the identical, unchanged, untranslated word. (And by the way, Moshiach is simply the Ashkenazi pronunciation of the Hebrew word.)

To demonstrate the difference between transliteration and translation, here is the blessing over bread, first in Hebrew, then transliterated, then translated into English:

בָּרוּךְ אַתָּה, יְיָ אֱלֹהֵינוּ, מֶלֶךְ הָעוֹלָם הַמּוֹצִיא לֶחֶם מִן הָאָרֶץ.
Baruch ata Adonai, Eloheinu melech haolam, hamotzi lechem min haaretz.
Blessed are you, Lord our God, king of the universe, who brings forth bread from the earth.

I'm tempted to say "Duh," but I'd like to be kinder than your post.
Jesus (Yeshua) was a Jew. All Jesus' first disciples were Jews. All the first apostles were Jews. All the first believers were Jews. All but one of the "books" of the New Testament were written by Jews. I also am a Jew (both parents and Bar Mitzvah). Being a Jew doesn't prevent one from believing that Yeshua was/is the Messiah.

I'm also tempted to say "duh", but I'd like to be kinder than your post.
 

WonderingWorrier

Active Member
The Hebrew word “Messiah” means “Anointed One.” Many persons were anointed in the Old Testament.

If you are saying the word messiah means anointed and you say that many people were anointed, then why are you not suggesting many messiahs?

Why did you then jump from messiah to saviour?

But the word “savior” does show up repeatedly.

You could not find the word messiah. There is a gap in your line of thought of how you went from messiah to saviour.

You are saying the word messiah means anointed, does the word anointed also mean saviour?
 

WonderingWorrier

Active Member
Even so, the narratives in Mark and in Luke both repeat the same prediction that the end of time would occur before the passing of the then present generation. So this is evidence that Jesus’s most important prediction was wrong.

But could this be considered evidence the important prediction was right:

"And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation". Mark.

Is this like he was teaching the complete opposite of what he himself was teaching? Or were people missing the point.
All the signs of the endtimes would happen to that generation without any signs.
 

Betho_br

Active Member
The verses of Matthew 27:41-43 are quite illuminating regarding the entire issue discussed in this topic.

Matthew 27:41-43 King James Version
Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said, He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him. He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.

ομοιως δε και οι αρχιερεις εμπαιζοντες μετα των γραμματεων και πρεσβυτερων και φαρισαιων ελεγον αλλους εσωσεν (saved) εαυτον ου δυναται σωσαι (save) ει βασιλευς ισραηλ εστιν καταβατω νυν απο του σταυρου και πιστευσομεν επ αυτω πεποιθεν επι τον θεον ρυσασθω ( let "him" deliver) νυν αυτον ει θελει αυτον ειπεν γαρ οτι θεου ειμι υιος Matthew 27:41-43 Greek

הָאֲחֵרִים הוֹשִׁיעַ וְעָצְמוֹ לֹא יוּכַל לְהוֹשִׁיעַ אִם מֶלֶךְ יִשְׂרָאֵל הוּא יָרַד מִן הָעֵץ וְנַאֲמִין בוֹ Shem Tob's Hebrew Gospel ofּ Matthew Matthew 27:42

הָאֲחֵרִים (others) הוֹשִׁיעַ (he saved) וְעָצְמוֹ (himself) לֹא (not) יוּכַל (can) לְהוֹשִׁיעַ (save)
אִם (if) מֶלֶךְ (king) יִשְׂרָאֵל (of Israel) הוּא (he is) יָרַד (come down) מִן (from) הָעֵץ (the tree/cross) וְנַאֲמִין (and we will believe) בוֹ (in him)


כִּי הוּא נִשְׁעַן בָּאֵל יוֹשִׁיעֵהוּ עַתָּה אִם יִרְצֶה שֶׁהוּא אָמַר שֶׁהוּא בֶּן־הָאֱלֹהִים Shem Tob's Hebrew Gospel of Matthew Matthew 27:43

כִּי (for) הוּא (he) נִשְׁעַן (trusted) בָּאֵל (in God) יוֹשִׁיעֵהוּ (let Him deliver him) עַתָּה (now) אִם (if) יִרְצֶה (He desires) שֶׁהוּא (for he) אָמַר (said) שֶׁהוּא (that he) בֶּן־הָאֱלֹהִים (is the Son of God)

גֹּ֣ל אֶל־יְהוָ֣ה יְפַלְּטֵ֑הוּ יַ֝צִּילֵ֗הוּ כִּ֘י חָ֥פֵֽץ בֹּֽו׃ Psalm 22:8 Hebrew

גֹּ֣ל (commit/roll) אֶל־יְהוָ֣ה (to the LORD) יְפַלְּטֵ֑הוּ (let Him deliver him) יַ֝צִּילֵ֗הוּ (let Him rescue him) כִּ֘י (because) חָ֥פֵֽץ (He delights) בֹּֽו (in him)

The Hebrew terms יוֹשִׁיעֵהוּ (save him), יְפַלְּטֵהוּ (he will deliver him), and יַצִּילֵהוּ (he will save him) have related meanings but do not share a common direct etymology. Here’s an explanation of each term and its roots:

1. יוֹשִׁיעֵהוּ (save him)
- Root: ישע (Y-Sh-A)
- Root Meaning: To save, deliver, help
- Form: The form יוֹשִׁיעֵהוּ is the verb in the hiphil (causative) form, third person singular, with the pronominal suffix "him."
- Translation: "He will save him."

2. יְפַלְּטֵהוּ (he will deliver him)
- Root: פלט (P-L-T)
- Root Meaning: To escape, deliver
- Form: The form יְפַלְּטֵהוּ is the verb in the piel (intensive) form, third person singular, with the pronominal suffix "him."
- Translation: "He will deliver him."

3. יַצִּילֵהוּ (he will save him)
- Root: נצל (N-Ts-L)
- Root Meaning: To rescue, save, deliver
- Form: The form יַצִּילֵהוּ is the verb in the hiphil (causative) form, third person singular, with the pronominal suffix "him."
- Translation: "He will save him."

Summary:

- יוֹשִׁיעֵהוּ derives from the root ישע (Y-Sh-A), meaning to save or help.
- יְפַלְּטֵהוּ derives from the root פלט (P-L-T), meaning to escape or deliver.
- יַצִּילֵהוּ derives from the root נצל (N-Ts-L), meaning to rescue or save.

Although all terms are related to the concept of "saving" or "delivering," they come from different roots and do not have a common etymological connection. Each of these roots carries distinct nuances in the context of rescue or deliverance.

ἤλπισεν ἐπὶ κύριον ῥυσάσθω αὐτόν σωσάτω αὐτόν ὅτι θέλει αὐτόν Psalms 21:9 LXX 22:8 (Hebrew)

ἤλπισεν (he trusted) ἐπὶ (in) κύριον (the Lord) ῥυσάσθω (let Him deliver) αὐτόν (him) σωσάτω (let Him save) αὐτόν (him) ὅτι (for) θέλει (He delights in) αὐτόν (him)

ῥυσάσθω (let him deliver)

- Root: ῥύομαι (rhýomai)
- Root Meaning: To rescue, deliver, save
- Form: The form ῥυσάσθω is the aorist imperative of the verb in the middle voice, third person singular.
- Translation: "Let him deliver."

σωσάτω (let him save)

- Root: σῴζω (sṓzō)
- Root Meaning: To save, heal, preserve
- Form: The form σωσάτω is the aorist imperative of the verb in the active voice, third person singular.
- Translation: "Let him save."

σῶσαι (to save)

- Root: σῴζω (sṓzō)
- Root Meaning: To save, heal, preserve
- Form: The form σῶσαι is the aorist infinitive of the verb in the active voice.
- Translation: "To save."

Summary:

- ῥυσάσθω derives from the verb ῥύομαι, which means "to rescue" or "to deliver."
- σωσάτω and σῶσαι derive from the verb σῴζω, which means "to save," "to heal," or "to preserve."

Therefore, while σωσάτω and σῶσαι share the same root (σῴζω) and have a direct etymological relationship, ῥυσάσθω comes from a different root (ῥύομαι) and, although it has a similar meaning, is not etymologically related to σωσάτω and σῶσαι.


Why does Matthew 27:43 in Greek not use the term σωσάτω (let Him save) found in the Septuagint? Was it because the term was forgotten, they used a different version of the Septuagint, or they interpreted the Hebrew text differently? What is the relationship of the term σωσάτω (let Him save), absent in Matthew 27:43, with the interpretation of the Hebrew text? These are numerous inquiries.
 
If you are saying the word messiah means anointed and you say that many people were anointed, then why are you not suggesting many messiahs?

Why did you then jump from messiah to saviour?



You could not find the word messiah. There is a gap in your line of thought of how you went from messiah to saviour.

You are saying the word messiah means anointed, does the word anointed also mean saviour?

Cyrus is also called God's "anointed" in Isaiah 45:1
To my knowledge, this is the only time a person who does not belong to Israel is called by God "My Moshiach".

I agree with you that messiah and savior are not the same thing, but the concepts are intimately related.
Generally (although not always) an anointed king or leader would deliver Israel from a difficult situation.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
The following well known passage of Luke 2:8-11 announces the birth of Jesus and specifically calls him the Messiah:
Now in that same region there were shepherds living in the fields, keeping watch over their flock by night. Then an angel of the Lord stood before them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were terrified. But the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid, for see, I am bringing to you good news of great joy for all the people: to you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is the Messiah, the Lord.”
(Luke 2:8 - 11, NRSVue*)
The Greek word for Messiah is “Christ.” So whenever Christians call Jesus the Christ they are affirming that Jesus is indeed the Messiah. The Hebrew word “Messiah” means “Anointed One.” Many persons were anointed in the Old Testament. Kings were anointed. Priests were anointed. Even Cyrus the Great of Persia was anointed. (Isaiah 45:1.)
I believe that Jesus was 'a messiah' since He was the Christ, but I do not believe Jesus was 'the Messiah' who was prophesied to come in the latter days at the end of the age. There is no way that Jesus could have been or will be the Messiah of the latter days since Jesus did not fulfill the Old Testament prophecies for that Messiah, and Jesus is not coming back to Earth to finish what He did not do.

There is not one verse in the New Testament where Jesus promised to return to Earth, all we have are verses where Jesus said His work was finished here and He was no more in the world. (John 14:19, John 16:10, John 17:4, John 17:11, John 19:30). Finished means finished. It does not mean coming back to do what He did not do.

Christians conveniently ignore these verses because they WANT Jesus to return to Earth..
So was Jesus really the savior whose coming was predicted by the Old Testament prophets? As I see it, no. The Old Testament authors didn’t believe any of Jesus’s most important teachings. They didn’t believe in his narrative about the resurrection of the dead, the last judgment, eternal life, and paradise. They didn’t believe in his teachings about forgiveness. As noted above, they had a completely different process for forgiving sins that involves animal sacrifice. They didn’t believe in his morality. And they expected that at the end of time everyone on Earth would be converted to Judaism: they would be worshiping the Jewish God (Yahweh), they would be observing Jewish law to the letter, and they would be observing all Jewish religious rites and festivals. As I see it, that’s very different from the vision of the end of time described by the New Testament authors. Why would the Old Testament authors have predicted the coming of a savior whose teachings were the opposite of their own? In my view, the answer is simple: they wouldn’t have, and therefore Jesus could not have been the savior whose coming was predicted by the Old Testament authors.
Jesus was a Savior but I do not believe that Jesus was the Messiah whose coming was predicted by the Old Testament prophets for the reasons I noted above. Being a Savior does not make one a Messiah.
We have clear proof of the fallibility of the biblical “prophets” in the Bible itself. I have already mentioned Isaiah’s false prophecy concerning the conquest of Egypt above. Now consider every Christian’s favorite New Testament passage-- John 3:16:

“For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life.”
(John 3:16, NRSVue)

The key phrase “may not perish” is a tell. As I read the above passage, John wasn’t saying that the followers of Jesus of his time would die and would then be resurrected thousands of years later. He was saying that they would never die. And why would he say that? I think it’s because he believed that the resurrection of the dead would happen before his own generation had died out.
I do not believe that John was saying that the followers of Jesus of his time would die and would then be resurrected thousands of years later.
I do not believe that John believed that the resurrection of the dead would happen before his own generation had died out.

He was saying that they would never die but rather have eternal life if they believed in Jesus.

When Jesus referred to eternal life, He was not referring to physical life of the body. He was referring a quality of life, spiritual life, loving God and being close to God.

The soul is immortal so it cannot perish. Only the body perishes. At death the body dies and takes on another form. This is the resurrection.

All the verses below refer to eternal life of the soul, not life of the physical body.

John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

I believe that all souls will continue to exist in the spiritual world after the body dies but not all souls will have eternal life (everlasting life).
Eternal life refers to a “quality” of life, nearness to God which, according to Jesus, comes from believing in Him.
In fact all three of the other New Testament gospel authors believed exactly that. Matthew reports the following exchange between Jesus and his disciples:

When he was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will this be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”
(Matthew 24:3, NRSVue)

Jesus answers the second part of the question first, and then says (in Matthew 24:33) that the end of the age will happen before his generation has passed away. This story is repeated in Chapter 13 of the book of Mark. There is a similar narrative in Luke 17:20 - 37 and Luke 21:20 - 32, though Luke’s version has several differences. (This story is not repeated in the book of John.) Even so, the narratives in Mark and in Luke both repeat the same prediction that the end of time would occur before the passing of the then present generation. So this is evidence that Jesus’s most important prediction was wrong.
Matthew 24 NIV

3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.

9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Then Jesus said:
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Why do you think that "this generation" refers to the generation of people that the disciples were living in?
I believe it is referring to the generation of people who were living when these things would come to pass.

When those things came to pass then we would see the end of the age, which I believe was the end of the Age of Prophecy and the beginning of a new age, the Age of Fulfillment.
I think the conclusion is inescapable: the Old Testament authors were not prophets, and neither were the New Testament authors; and Jesus could not have been the Messiah.
As I said above, I believe that Jesus was 'a messiah' since He was the Christ, but I do not believe Jesus was 'the Messiah' who was foretold by the prophets of the Old Testament who was to come in the latter days at the end of the age. That conclusion is inescapable.
 

DavidSMoore

Member
Why does Matthew 27:43 in Greek not use the term σωσάτω (let Him save) found in the Septuagint? Was it because the term was forgotten, they used a different version of the Septuagint, or they interpreted the Hebrew text differently? What is the relationship of the term σωσάτω (let Him save), absent in Matthew 27:43, with the interpretation of the Hebrew text? These are numerous inquiries.
Interesting, thanks for the detailed analysis. But let's also not forget that Jesus spoke in Aramaic:

Jesus' mother tongue was Aramaic, for Hebrew was no longer spoken colloquially by the Jewish population at that time. In that part of the world it was Aramaic, a kindred Semitic language, that had become the everyday language shared by the various populations.
(The Gospel of Jesus, James M. Robinson, pg. 55-56)

So before the Septuagint, before the gospels, somebody somewhere translated the stories of Jesus from their Aramaic roots to Greek. As far as I am aware nobody knows who did that, or when.
 

Betho_br

Active Member
I'll bring another post from a different topic.

Exodus 21:6

הָ֣אֱלֹהִ֔ים
hā-’ĕ-lō-hîm,
the judges

κριτήριον the judgment seat τοῦ θεοῦ of God Exodus 21:6 LXX

1 Samuel 2:25

  • ἐὰν (if)
  • ἁμαρτάνων (sinning)
  • ἁμάρτῃ (he sins)
  • ἀνὴρ (a man)
  • εἰς (against)
  • ἄνδρα (a man)
  • καὶ (and)
  • προσεύξονται (they will pray)
  • ὑπὲρ (on behalf of)
  • αὐτοῦ (him)
  • πρὸς (to)
  • κύριον (the Lord) 'ĕ·lō·hîm,אֱלֹהִ֔ים
  • καὶ (and)
  • ἐὰν (if)
  • τῷ (to the)
  • κυρίῳ (Lord) Yah·weh לַֽיהוָה֙
  • ἁμάρτῃ (he sins)
  • τίς (who)
  • προσεύξεται (will pray)
  • ὑπὲρ (on behalf of)
  • αὐτοῦ (him)
  • καὶ (and)
  • οὐκ (not)
  • ἤκουον (they listened)
  • τῆς (to the)
  • φωνῆς (voice)
  • τοῦ (of the)
  • πατρὸς (father)
  • αὐτῶν (their)
  • ὅτι (because)
  • βουλόμενος (wishing)
  • ἐβούλετο (desired)
  • κύριος (the Lord)
  • διαφθεῖραι (to destroy)
  • αὐτούς (them)

When a man sins against another man, the judges will judge him; but when a man sins against the Lord, who will intercede for him? But they did not listen to the voice of their father, because the Lord wanted to kill them. 1 Sa 2:25 LXX

The Hellenists used the same word, κύριον and κυρίῳ, for both Elohim (a divinized human judge) and YHWH (God, the Father). Therefore, those who read in Greek (Septuagint) would not understand the difference. As a result, when the circumcised churches of Judea were weakened by the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D., the Hellenists had more influence in interpreting the acts of Jesus. This interpretation is mentioned in Pliny's letter to Emperor Trajan: a Christ worshipped/revered as a god/God. The Greek term "theos" in the Christian Bible ("New Testament") can very well be interpreted as Elohim (divinized judge), and Adonai might refer to this rather than exclusively to the God YHWH. The question is, which ancient writings (manuscripts) preserved these nuances?
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Why does Matthew 27:43 in Greek not use the term σωσάτω (let Him save) found in the Septuagint? Was it because the term was forgotten, they used a different version of the Septuagint, or they interpreted the Hebrew text differently? What is the relationship of the term σωσάτω (let Him save), absent in Matthew 27:43, with the interpretation of the Hebrew text? These are numerous inquiries.
There are several of possible reasons.
  • It could be that the author is translating the Psalm from some other translation from Hebrew to Aramaic, and bypassing the LXX.
  • It could be that the author is simply using a different version of the LXX. There are actually quite a few different versions.
  • It could be that he himself is translating Psalm 22:8 directly from the Hebrew text.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Why find or use the Greek word, what is bad about the word Messiah, same way why find and use the Greek word Jesus, what is bad in the word Yeshua , please, right????!

Regards
Why are you against him using the Greek word? It's not as if one language or another is somehow holy and all the rest profane.
 

DavidSMoore

Member
I believe that Jesus was 'a messiah' since He was the Christ, but I do not believe Jesus was 'the Messiah' who was prophesied to come in the latter days at the end of the age. There is no way that Jesus could have been or will be the Messiah of the latter days since Jesus did not fulfill the Old Testament prophecies for that Messiah, and Jesus is not coming back to Earth to finish what He did not do.

There is not one verse in the New Testament where Jesus promised to return to Earth, all we have are verses where Jesus said His work was finished here and He was no more in the world. (John 14:19, John 16:10, John 17:4, John 17:11, John 19:30). Finished means finished. It does not mean coming back to do what He did not do.

Well there is this passage in which Jesus describes the arrival of the Son of Man:

"Immediately after the suffering of those days
the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from heaven,
and the powers of heaven will be shaken.
"Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see 'the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven' with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a lout trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."
(Matthew 24:29-31, NRSVue)

So who is the Son of Man? Here's what Jesus said about that:

"For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, 'He has a demon'; the Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Look, a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!'"
(Matthew 11:18-19, NRSVue)

To me, it doesn't seem like much of a stretch to conclude that Jesus was talking about himself in the above passage. Both passages are from the same book-- Matthew-- so it seems reasonable, at least to me, to infer that Jesus was describing his own future return in the first passage.

The soul is immortal so it cannot perish. Only the body perishes. At death the body dies and takes on another form. This is the resurrection.

Just as point of interest, many-- perhaps most-- Gnostics believed that the resurrection isn't a one time event but is rather an eternal process. When a person dies their soul is resurrected. If that soul has finally grasped The Truth, then it will ascend to a state of pure being. Otherwise it will become bound to a new body and will get another chance to grasp The Truth that may eventually free it from the evils of the material world. It's a very Pythagorean "transmigration of the soul" sort of thing, with strong hints of Hindu reincarnation. There are some Gnostic elements in the New Testament, and there were Gnostics who called themselves Christians in the first couple of centuries CE. The point is, there were multiple ideas about the immortality of the soul that were floating around at the time the gospels were written.

Then Jesus said:
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Why do you think that "this generation" refers to the generation of people that the disciples were living in?
I believe it is referring to the generation of people who were living when these things would come to pass.
In that case it seems to me that he likely would have said "that generation," but in Aramaic. I'm not convinced by your argument, but then many of the sayings of Jesus are obscure and are open to multiple interpretations.
 

Jimmy

King Phenomenon
To me it’s simple. Jewish people don’t think he’s the messiah promised in the OT while Christians do. It’s that simple. As to the question if he really is the Messiah. Well, that’s in faiths hands.
 
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