The Military Fights to Defend our Freedom, or absurdist things the news tells me.

[Kathryn]

Sorry, Kathryn, but producing a list of about thirty violent episodes during a period of nine years - some of them without even a clear religious motivation, at that - will not cut it.

There are over a billion Muslims alive these days. With all due respect for Islam, its effect on Muslims is not quite fabulous enough to make all those people literally incapable of violence.

You could easily produce similar lists suggesting nearly anything - for instance, that Buddhists have it for Mormons. For each of the episodes listed, I'm certain there were many more involving similar violence from Christians to other Christians in
the same timeframe. Shall we use that as evidence that Christians are some sort of violent nihilistic sect? No, I don't think so.

Can you please provide me with a list of Buddhist attacks against Mormons? That should be interesting.

I never have said that Islam in and of itself produces violence or nihillism. I have been discussing RADICAL Islamic extremists only.

The list I produced was FAR from complete (I made note of that in the earlier post) and only included attacks that were BASED on religious differences against Christians - not attacks that were, for instance, actually a robbery or some other sort of crime in which the victims just happened to be Christians. These people were attacked BECAUSE they were Christians.

For the record, I don't think that Christians are any more hated by radical Islams than other groups of religious people who don't follow Allah. I was merely discussing Christianity as influencing Western culture and both elements being equally hated by Islamic extremists.

Religion, seclarism, culture, AND US interests, aggression, and interference in some Muslim countries ALL contribute to the hatred of radical Muslims toward much of Western society, and the US in particular.

But the US is not singled out as the object of their hatred. There have actually been over 15,600 Islamic terror attacks in the past nine years ALONE, against various religious sects, ethnic groups, and other real and perceived "enemies of Allah" or radical Islam, in the following countries and states:

India
the Sudan
Algeria
Afghanistan
New York
Pakistan
Israel
Russia
Chechnya
the Philippines
Indonesia
Nigeria
England
Thailand
Spain
Egypt
Bangladesh
Saudi Arabia
Ingushetia
Dagestan
Turkey
Morocco
Yemen
Lebanon
France
Uzbekistan
Gaza
Tunisia
Kosovo
Bosnia
Mauritania
Kenya
Eritrea
Syria
Somalia
California
Kuwait
Virginia
Ethiopia
Iran
Jordan
United Arab Emirates
Louisiana
Texas
Tanzania
Germany
Australia
Pennsylvania
Belgium
Denmark
East Timor
Qatar
Maryland
Tajikistan
the Netherlands
Scotland
Chad
Canada
China
Nepal
the Maldives
Argentina
Mali
Angola
the Ukraine
Uganda

These attacks have resulted in the deaths, maiming, and injuries of literally hundreds of thousands of people globally. My gosh, over 600 people were killed worldwide in radical Islamist terror attacks in June 2010 alone (and I am not including combat deaths in that figure - ONLY terror attacks).

These are not isolated events that are unconnected to other terrorist activities - this is a world wide and systematic attempt to destabilize and terrorize and, I believe, eventually dominate.

 

[LuisDantas]

Can you please provide me with a list of Buddhist attacks against Mormons? That should be interesting.

Ok, I exagerated a bit for dramatic effect, but really, no so much. Give me a couple of days checking Salt Lake City records and I'm game.

I still maintain that your list is, if anything, a counter-argument for your claim. For many of them it is not even clear if there is a religious motivation. There are more Muslims than Catholics in the world, yet I will not be surprised if you can find far greater number of comparable violent acts by Catholics, with comparable criteria.

 

[Kathryn]

.

Ok, I exagerated a bit for dramatic effect, but really, no so much. Give me a couple of days checking Salt Lake City records and I'm game.

Fair enough.

I still maintain that your list is, if anything, a counter-argument for your claim. For many of them it is not even clear if there is a religious motivation.

Oh, come on. Are you really saying that you don't believe that most terrorist attacks by Muslim extremists are largely fueled by religious fundamentalism?

There are more Muslims than Catholics in the world, yet I will not be surprised if you can find far greater number of comparable violent acts by Catholics, with comparable criteria

Well, you're the one making that claim, so I'll let you do the research to back it up.

By the way, as it stands at present, Christians make up about 32% of the world's population (of that number, Catholics make up about 17% of the world's population), and Muslims make up about 22%. Islam is the fastest growing religious group in the world but they are not the largest as yet.

Even so, they certainly are managing to wreak more than their fair share of havoc on the world, aren't they?

What's the common denominator when it comes to violence and bloodshed, ethnic cleansing, genocide, and repeated terrorist attacks in the following countries?

India
the Sudan
Algeria
Afghanistan
Pakistan
Israel
Russia
Chechnya
the Philippines
Indonesia
Nigeria
England
Thailand
Spain
Egypt
Iraq
Bangladesh
Saudi Arabia
Ingushetia
Dagestan
Turkey
Morocco
Yemen
Lebanon
France
Uzbekistan
Gaza
Tunisia
Kosovo
Bosnia
Mauritania
Kenya
Eritrea
Syria
Somalia
Kuwait
Ethiopia
Iran
Jordan
United Arab Emirates
Tanzania
Germany
Australia
Belgium
Denmark
East Timor
Qatar
Tajikistan
the Netherlands
Scotland
Chad
Canada
China
Nepal
the Maldives
Argentina
Mali
Angola
the Ukraine
Uganda
United States

Hint: It's not western culture, and it's not Christianity. It's not US involvement in foreign affairs and it's not atheism or secularism.

It's radical Islam.

 

[LuisDantas]

Oh, come on. Are you really saying that you don't believe that most terrorist attacks by Muslim extremists are largely fueled by religious fundamentalism?

Fueled? Certainly. To the extent that it is a deciding factor? Perhaps once in a very long while. I sincerely believe that hatred due to military tragedy and social and economic hardship is far more decisive.

I know Muslims and I know fundamentalists. Granted, I don't think I've met any Muslim fundamentalists. That, however, is by itself yet another indication that this problem is not all that some believe it to be.

By the way, as it stands at present, Christians make up about 32% of the world's population (of that number, Catholics make up about 17% of the world's population), and Muslims make up about 22%. Islam is the fastest growing religious group in the world but they are not the largest as yet.

Quite frankly, I hope they don't make it to that place. Then again, I'm not sure I would notice that much of a difference from Christianity. The two faiths are quite similar, particularly when it comes to fundamentalists.

Even so, they certainly are managing to wreak more than their fair share of havoc on the world, aren't they?

Sincerely? I don't think so, and I think it is misleading to give too much weight to the fact that they are Muslims. Muslim populations in Indonesia are far more numerous than in the Arab world, yet that place is not troubled by Muslim fundamentalists. Neither are most countries outside the Middle East, except for the USA and Israel, which are targeted for reasons far more political than religious. You don't see much effort directed by Muslim terrorists towards the Vatican, for instance, despite it being a far more direct challenge to their religious convictions. For that matter, even Muslim extremists are usually at odds with each other, often for the benefit of Gen. Petraeus and others.

Here in the west most criminals, at all levels of gravity, are Christians, but we simply don't make a big deal of that. I think it is a mistake to make one of the fact that most Middle Eastern violence comes from Muslims.

What's the common denominator when it comes to violence and bloodshed, ethnic cleansing, genocide, and repeated terrorist attacks in the following countries?

(...)

I don't know that there is one, but the closest might be that they are fueled by previous violence and extreme social conditions. Possibly political warmongering, too.

Hint: It's not western culture, and it's not Christianity.

Nor is it particularly likely to be Muslim culture, really.

It's not US involvement in foreign affairs

Not for all of them, but for a few very notable cases it certianly is a major factor at the very least.

and it's not atheism or secularism.

It's radical Islam.

To the extent that this is true, it is a good idea to un-fuel it as opposed to incite it, right?

 

[Kathryn]

Muslim populations in Indonesia are far more numerous than in the Arab world, yet that place is not troubled by Muslim fundamentalists. Neither are most countries outside the Middle East, except for the USA and Israel, which are targeted for reasons far more political than religious.

Luis, I was shocked to read this, coming from someone as intelligent as you. I mean that sincerely. I'm NOT ridiculing you by that statement.

Let's talk about countries outside the Middle East which are not only "troubled" by Muslim extremists - but are the scene of radical Islamist terrorist activity on a regular basis:

Nigeria (west Africa)
Thailand (far east)
Dagestan (Russian province)
Uganda (as in, just a few days ago, 76 World Cup soccer fans were massacred in a terrorist attack - east Africa)
India (south Asia)
Pakistan (south Asia)
Somalia ( east Africa)
Chechnya (Russian province)
Ingushetia (Russian province)
Ethiopia (east Africa)
The Congo (west Africa)
The Phillipines (far east)
Sudan (north Africa)
Russia (Moscow area)
Niger (west Africa)
Bangladesh (south Asia)
Kenya (southeast Africa)
Algeria (north Africa)

You know what all these countries have in common? They are all outside the Middle East, and they have all suffered NUMEROUS terrorist attacks by radical Muslims in 2010.

And let's talk about Indonesia, the country that you claim is not troubled by Muslim fundamentalism and terrorism. Do the words "Bali" and "JAKARTA" ring a bell with you? (hint: Simultaneous hotel bombings in the heart of the business district one year ago and previous terrorist attacks since 9/11)
INDONESIA Jakarta reveals plans for terrorist attacks against Danish embassy - Asia News

Jakarta is a hotbed of terrorist attacks and activities at the hands of Muslim extremists.

Luis, I really think you should read up on this topic. I mean this very sincerely - at this point I'm not trying to debate you or poke fun at you. I think you are truly not aware of the pervasiveness of radical Islam in today's world.

 

[sandandfoam]

Hi Kathryn,

Kathryn what about 'Christian' terrorism?
Iraq
Afghanistan
Nigeria
Chechnya
Bosnia....

I'm not going to write out a huge list, but it could easily be done. The fact is that 'Christians' over the last year, 10 years, 20 years have killed many more Muslims than Christians have been killed by Muslims.
Islam is no worse that Christianity and Christianity is no worse than a drama group. People kill and harm their enemy, the other, the dehumanised, the threat.
We've got to get over fear if we want peace.
Agressors can be construed as heroic freedom fighters or as cowardly agents of terrorism, depending on who is conferring the attribution. (Zimbardo 2007, p.460) Definitions of heroism and terrorism are always culture bound and time bound. Your youthful, heroic defender of American freedom is no better from a different perspective than your view of a suicide bomber.
I believe that both perspectives are real and valid to those who hold them and as such the only hope is in the idea that killing anyone is a bad idea.
Killing anyone is wrong. Constructing Islam as a bogeyman is pouring fuel on the fire of hate and is not helpful to anything.

 

[Revoltingest]

Hi Kathryn,

Kathryn what about 'Christian' terrorism?
Iraq
Afghanistan
Nigeria
Chechnya
Bosnia....

I'm not going to write out a huge list, but it could easily be done. The fact is that 'Christians' over the last 20 years have killed many more Muslims than Christians have been killed by Muslims.
Islam is no worse that Christianity and Christianity is no worse than a drama group. People kill and harm the enemy, the other, the dehumanised, the threat.
We've got to get over fear if we want peace.
Killing anyone is wrong. Constructing Islam as a bogeyman is pouring fuel on the fire of hate and is not helpful to anything.

All you did was list countries. Where's the description of the terrorism? Who is doing it to whom & under what circumstances?

 

[sandandfoam]

All you did was list countries. Where's the description of the terrorism? Who is doing it to whom & under what circumstances?

I've edited my post above slightly since but also,
If you google Srebrenica you'll see all you need - it's just past the 15th anniversary of the genocide
Google any news archive for what the Russians have done in Chechnya - you will find report after report of brutality rape and murder - thousands of disappeared civilians.
Bosnia you hardly need me to describe, or Kosovo?

 

[Revoltingest]

I've edited my post above slightly since but also,
If you google Srebrenica you'll see all you need - it's just past the 15th anniversary of the genocide
Google any news archive for what the Russians have done in Chechnya - you will find report after report of brutality rape and murder - thousands of disappeared civilians.
Bosnia you hardly need me to describe, or Kosovo?

It just saves time when you list the events & groups involved. For example, I found nothing for Iraq & Afghanistan.
Are you perhaps including other types of armed conflict in with terrorism?

 

[Badran]

It just saves time when you list the events & groups involved. For example, I found nothing for Iraq & Afghanistan.
Are you perhaps including other types of armed conflict in with terrorism?

Is it conflict instead of terrorism just because its an army doing the stuff?

Also, the point is we can list lots of bad stuff done by adherents of a religion, but that doesn't mean they did it for religious reasons, and that doesn't mean that their religion must have something to do with it. The point of Stephenw is that we can do the same with christianity, but still that doesn't mean that we blame these things on "radical christianity".

Not every thing done by extremists is done for religious reasons. Extremism is not exclusive to religion. Listing lots of crimes or terroristic attacks done by muslims sure looks bad, but it doesn't say anything besides that there are lots of stuff done by muslim radicals. We can not lump in all these incidents and chuck it up to a couple of reasons, these incidents have different circumstances and different motivations behind it. They might have somethings in common, but that doesn't support the "theory" that this is all supposed to be a connected web for a certain purpose, that is a very unhealthy generalization.

Also, there is a difference between the leaders of groups that carry out terrorism, and the people who are in these groups. The leaders have an agenda, but the same can not be said on the rest of the guys who work or join with these groups. The main point of all this, is that the main motivation for the increased attacks on America, and the main motive most of these guys have, is related to the injustice and anger they feel towards it. Not because they hate your life style. And if that is part of the reason, we still must realize that its not the main reason. It is a motive no doubt, the detest that some have for other religions motivates a lot of things, but it is not the main reason for attacks on America.

 

[LuisDantas]

Is it conflict instead of terrorism just because its an army doing the stuff?

Yes, that is the question that must be asked. Sometimes it is hard to avoid the dark humor thought that the solution to terrorism is to declare that any and all terrorist groups, including lone wolfs, shall be officially recognized as armies.

Of course, for those who are under threat and losing lives, relatives, dignity and property, it hardly makes any difference which slogans those yielding the weapons like to chant.

There is a reason why rich and stable countries such as Dubai and Quwait are so much less likely to breed terrorists than historically troubled one such as Iraq, Afganisthan and Israel / Palestine.

 

[Revoltingest]

Terrorism: I'd call it violence or the threat of violence for the purpose of striking fear in the hearts of civilians, be it by governments, NGOs or individuals
Examples: Murder of & threats towards cartoonists (Jihadists), collective punishment (Israelis), auto de fe (Catholics)
Excluded: police actions, war, normal political hate speech from all sides
Certainly, terrorism can be part of the above exclusions, but it is not inherent.

I opposed the Iraq war, but it is not terrorism by any reasonable definition. However, friends who fled
there say that Sadam used terrorism against the population, particularly politically active students.

 

[LuisDantas]

Myself, I have a very hard time seeing difference between war and terrorism, I freely admit it.

 

[Caladan]

Terrorism: I'd call it violence or the threat of violence for the purpose of striking fear in the hearts of civilians, be it by governments, NGOs or individuals
Examples: Murder of & threats towards cartoonists (Jihadists), collective punishment (Israelis), auto de fe (Catholics)
Excluded: police actions, war, normal political hate speech from all sides
Certainly, terrorism can be part of the above exclusions, but it is not inherent.

I opposed the Iraq war, but it is not terrorism by any reasonable definition. However, friends who fled
there say that Sadam used terrorism against the population, particularly politically active students.

Israeli policies are categorized as terrorism, but the policies of American forces in Iraq are not. this thread turns out to be a fascinating case study of double standards.

 

[Aquitaine]

I opposed the Iraq war, but it is not terrorism by any reasonable definition.

I'm afraid I'll have to disagree with you here. The fact that both our countries whacked and invaded a country based on false allegations and forcefully implemented regime change at the cost of so many innocent lives is indeed Terrorism in my opinion.

Of course, that's not neccessarily a shot at the soldiers, since they have to follow the orders given to them and are usually pumped full of propaganda and usually believe they're doing the right thing etc. When I talk about stuff like this being Terrorism, I'm laying the blame on the politicians who manipulate and lie in order to accomplish this disasterous stuff.

 

[Badran]

I opposed the Iraq war, but it is not terrorism by any reasonable definition.

Why? They killed civilians didn't they? They tortured some in prisons? That counts as terrorism in my eyes. The whole thing actually counts as terrorism in my eyes.

There is a reason why rich and stable countries such as Dubai and Quwait are so much less likely to breed terrorists than historically troubled one such as Iraq, Afganisthan and Israel / Palestine.

I always say this. Poverty, poor education, and loads of other poor conditions in a country, helps in fostering this kind of behavior. Not to mention War , war brings out the worst in people.

 

[Revoltingest]

Why? They killed civilians didn't they? They tortured some in prisons? That counts as terrorism in my eyes. The whole thing actually counts as terrorism in my eyes.

The torture was not for purposes of terrorizing the civilian population. In fact, I'm sure they wanted it kept secret,
especially since some of the torture was by rogues for their own pleasure. Wrong? Yes. Torture? No. The war was
sort of a noble effort...but the kind of nobility which gets entirely lost in the fog of war without focus.

I always say this. Poverty, poor education, and loads of other poor conditions in a country, helps in fostering this kind of behavior. Not to mention War , war brings out the worst in people.

True dat.

 

[Badran]

The torture was not for purposes of terrorizing the civilian population. In fact, I'm sure they wanted it kept secret,
especially since some of the torture was by rogues for their own pleasure. Wrong? Yes. Torture? No. The war was
sort of a noble effort...but the kind of nobility which gets entirely lost in the fog of war without focus.

I'm not saying the troops, or at least not all or most of them were terrorists. For example i saw once some guys saying that they go to Iraq mainly just to help the other troops who are in a rough spot. But the reasons behind the war, and the casualties it caused, the destruction of the country, the civilian casualties, the enforcing attitude, and these things that happened in prisons, with no doubt left the Iraqi people in fear to say the least.

We can speculate about wether or not thats part of the intention. But put in mind that some of the terroristic stuff that goes on are also not particularly for the purpose of terrorizing, but sometimes its rather revenge for example. And still it gets called terrorism.

 

[LuisDantas]

I suspect that there is some stereotyping running around here. "Terrorists" aren't necessarily malicious or even strong-willed people, or even particularly interested in politics. Quite a few are youngsters that simply never learned better than what they have been told recently.

And really, on that respect they are no different than many military recruits. I fear civilian attitudes towards the Military personnel and the whole role of the Military in the world are in dire need of revisal.

 

[Badran]

Exactly. We must put in mind the conditions in which a youngster is raised and what he sees and whats he's told. He doesn't have a world domination agenda, neither does lots of people who engage in these things. They are misguided by false principles and deeply affected by the conditions they are in, and what they see around them.

They are no different than a soldier who is misguided by the false mottos that his government provides for him, and the propaganda they fed him. Not say that these things excuse anything on neither sides, but i'm only saying like you said, that we shouldn't paint brush al these folks with a stereotyped and a rather naive picture.