The Miracle of Water.

[Deeje]

A gladiator would at least bring a sword and a shield to the contest. All you bring is denial, arrogance, convoluted logic, and parroted nonsense.

I have a sword and a shield that I believe is equal to yours. (Ephesians 6:16-17)
If it isn't a contest that you want to win, why are you in the arena?
If you think that your opponent is a 90lb unarmed weakling, why is he (she) still standing? Why do these threads get so much traffic?

To enter this arena means that only one leaves alive. We actually believe that people's future lives depend on making a clear decision about this issue. But the arena has lots of spectators who will give either a 'thumbs up' or a 'thumbs down' depending on how skillfully we use our defensive and offensive weapons. My weapon is the Bible and my shield is my faith. I have confidence that both are well made......I know the manufacturer very well.

Have you checked your own sword and shield lately? Perhaps you yourself are relying on "denial, arrogance, convoluted logic, and parroted nonsense"? Would you know?

No one is saying that science can, so move on. Proofs are only used in Mathematics. In math, unlike science or any other field, we CAN prove that what we do is absolutely right. That's because math is not dependent on partially known physical laws or unpredictable human behavior, but simply on our ability to reason normally.

If the ToE is not "absolutely right" then people have sacrificed belief in an Intelligent Creator for what? "It "might be" or "could be" true? Is that really good enough to bet your life on? That is what I believe is at stake here.

As a species we have collective expectations, abilities and thought processes that are unique to us.....these separate us from all other living things. We might be made of the same materials and even exhibit a similar framework, but our capabilities are so far ahead of any other creature on this planet. Suggesting that we evolved from creatures who have not shown anywhere close to our abilities or intellectual capacity and remain largely unaltered by time, is a stretch that only science could create......not with real evidence, but with assumptions and wild suggestions made all the more plausible with detailed diagrams and computer generated imagery that makes it look like it is a provable fact. It isn't anywhere close...and more people are being made aware of it. Knowledge is power, but only if it's accurate.

For some reason you seem to think that by equating proof or absolutes to Evolution, it will give you some sense of intellectual superiority or just attention. Unfortunately, it only demonstrates just how poorly you understand how science works. This has nothing to do with passion. It is about knowledge and reason. You bring none to these to the table

"You don't understand how science works" .....I have heard that umpteen times.....well, I'm sorry but I do know the basics of how science works. If the knowledge is not based on provable facts then it is based on something else. What could that be? All they have are assumptions about what "might have" happened when they have no proof that it ever did. I believe that this is leading people down a dark path.
Where there is no proof, there is no truth. So who do we believe? Excusing the lack of proof is just pathetic IMO. But of course, its up to all of us to make that choice.

What exactly is "godlessness"?

Godlessness is the idea that humanity needs no higher authority other than himself.

The world we live in is proof that humans who think they don't need God, or his rules.....(or those who think he might be 'out there somewhere', but is not interested in what they are doing.....) are hopeless at governing themselves or taking care of their only home. They exploit the earth and each other, leading us all to the very real threat of extinction at their own hand....and science has contributed to that situation like no other human endeavor. You want facts? There they are. Aren't you proud of science? There's no one to answer to?......or is there? What if he is just giving all humans "enough rope"?

If Evolution is false, then every single biological principle is wrong. The principles governing all biochemical and biophysical processes are wrong. The functions of genes and alleles are all wrong.

Who says? Science can tell us a lot about biological functions and mechanisms, but putting the cause down to evolution beyond testable limits is what has created this issue. Its nothing more than educated guessing.
Killing God has some serious consequences. Are you prepared for them?

What alternative explanation can you posit, to explain all biological phenomena? Or are you again just insinuating? Since you are asserting your denial of Evolution, it is not an undeniable fact, is it? It is simply a fact. There will always be people that will believe that the earth is undeniably flat. History is full of people that will deny reality itself, if it challenges their indoctrinated beliefs. Their logic will always be top-down.

I have given you my alternative explanation. Sorry if it wasn't "scientific" enough for you. Time will tell who got it right I guess, won't it.

One thing is certain though.....no one can make the Creator go away, no matter how intelligent they want to sound at the funeral they are conducting for him. Rumors about his demise are highly exaggerated.....but there is a coffin and it is not empty, I believe that it will contain a dead theory and all who thought that a Creator was not scientific enough for them. I don't believe it has to end that way unless we choose our beliefs for the wrong reasons.

 

[Deeje]

Regarding Macro vs, Microevolution, this is the easiest 1 min(or so) analogy I could find. Although evidence has no relevance to people in denial.

What a strange analogy....a baby and an old person are still the same species. Now if it was a baby ape that died as an old human...that would be much more convincing. Try again.

Maybe you can give it a go, and provide a better image of what early homo sapiens looked like, based on the evidence? It takes zero intelligence to simply dismiss and deny any evidence that is presented to you. But it does take some intelligence to provide evidence to support an alternative explanation.

What is in the fossil record to convince us otherwise? Humans are the last to appear as a species on earth, as the Bible says. Varieties of apes down through time simply reflect the large varieties in many other species of animals. None of them turned into anything like us, did they?

The fact that science had to change their illustrations to reflect their findings of fully upright humans, is proof of how far they will stretch the truth to maintain their credibility.

Since you are not an authority of the scientific method of inquiry, what is your justification for dismissing the convergence of evidence(genetic, anatomical, chemical markers, biophysical, archaeological, radiometry, or cellular), supporting Evolution? Why do you think that humans were never ape-like or primitive? What evidence can you posit to support this claim. Remember the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

I already mentioned that there are still primitive people in existence today, co-existing in our modern world. If in a few million years they find their skeletal remains and their tools and evidence of their lifestyle, would they assume that all humans everywhere must have lived that way?

"Remember the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."....that works both ways you know.

This is just gibberish. How do we know which of man's definitions we should pick and choose to use?

Unless you know what a person believes, how do you address them accordingly? I know what you believe but do you know what I believe?
I am not anti-science.....I am a great admirer of science. I am in awe of what it can show us about nature and how it works. It can tell us about the functions of the human body and how all its systems interact and cooperate together to keep us living without us ever having to consciously think about any of it...unless something malfunctions and illness ensues. Medical Science can even explain what is wrong and make suggestions about how to treat it. My beef is not with any of that. No other branch of science concentrates on eliminating an Intellegent Designer more than the ToE. It seems to be a very important agenda. But why? What threat can a "myth" possibly be?

For those who are undecided, these forums provide points of view that are diametrically opposed. Our conversations give them food for thought. Isn't that a good thing?

My "weapon", rather that to destroy, is to save. I just hope that people will see the truth and do their own research rather than to just swallow what the choir is singing. Preaching to the converted is a rather useless exercise....isn't it?

 

[Truly Enlightened]

I have a sword and a shield that I believe is equal to yours. (Ephesians 6:16-17)
If it isn't a contest that you want to win, why are you in the arena?
If you think that your opponent is a 90lb unarmed weakling, why is he (she) still standing? Why do these threads get so much traffic?

To enter this arena means that only one leaves alive. We actually believe that people's future lives depend on making a clear decision about this issue. But the arena has lots of spectators who will give either a 'thumbs up' or a 'thumbs down' depending on how skillfully we use our defensive and offensive weapons. My weapon is the Bible and my shield is my faith. I have confidence that both are well made......I know the manufacturer very well.

Have you checked your own sword and shield lately? Perhaps you yourself are relying on "denial, arrogance, convoluted logic, and parroted nonsense"? Would you know?



If the ToE is not "absolutely right" then people have sacrificed belief in an Intelligent Creator for what? "It "might be" or "could be" true? Is that really good enough to bet your life on? That is what I believe is at stake here.

As a species we have collective expectations, abilities and thought processes that are unique to us.....these separate us from all other living things. We might be made of the same materials and even exhibit a similar framework, but our capabilities are so far ahead of any other creature on this planet. Suggesting that we evolved from creatures who have not shown anywhere close to our abilities or intellectual capacity and remain largely unaltered by time, is a stretch that only science could create......not with real evidence, but with assumptions and wild suggestions made all the more plausible with detailed diagrams and computer generated imagery that makes it look like it is a provable fact. It isn't anywhere close...and more people are being made aware of it. Knowledge is power, but only if it's accurate.



"You don't understand how science works" .....I have heard that umpteen times.....well, I'm sorry but I do know the basics of how science works. If the knowledge is not based on provable facts then it is based on something else. What could that be? All they have are assumptions about what "might have" happened when they have no proof that it ever did. I believe that this is leading people down a dark path.
Where there is no proof, there is no truth. So who do we believe? Excusing the lack of proof is just pathetic IMO. But of course, its up to all of us to make that choice.



Godlessness is the idea that humanity needs no higher authority other than himself.

The world we live in is proof that humans who think they don't need God, or his rules.....(or those who think he might be 'out there somewhere', but is not interested in what they are doing.....) are hopeless at governing themselves or taking care of their only home. They exploit the earth and each other, leading us all to the very real threat of extinction at their own hand....and science has contributed to that situation like no other human endeavor. You want facts? There they are. Aren't you proud of science? There's no one to answer to?......or is there? What if he is just giving all humans "enough rope"?



Who says? Science can tell us a lot about biological functions and mechanisms, but putting the cause down to evolution beyond testable limits is what has created this issue. Its nothing more than educated guessing.
Killing God has some serious consequences. Are you prepared for them?



I have given you my alternative explanation. Sorry if it wasn't "scientific" enough for you. Time will tell who got it right I guess, won't it.

One thing is certain though.....no one can make the Creator go away, no matter how intelligent they want to sound at the funeral they are conducting for him. Rumors about his demise are highly exaggerated.....but there is a coffin and it is not empty, I believe that it will contain a dead theory and all who thought that a Creator was not scientific enough for them. I don't believe it has to end that way unless we choose our beliefs for the wrong reasons.

My weapon is the Bible and my shield is my faith. I have confidence that both are well made......I know the manufacturer very well.

In other words, you need to create an imaginary reality to replace an actual reality. You need to create your own myths and superstitions, to give your life meaning and purpose. You need to follow the directions of an ecclesiastic, apparitional, spiritual father figure, to atone for some imaginary sin you have created. You need to maintain the hope that when we die, we will somehow live again as a spirit. In other words, you must abandon all semblance of common sense and critical thinking, and adopt a position that a cognitive conception can exist outside of the mind. Unfortunately, this is the definition of a delusion. You may believe that you will be held up by angels if you jump off a building, but reality can become very sobering indeed. You may believe that your prayers will be answered, but reality unfortunately paints a different picture. You may believe that yours is the true belief, but why yours, and not any of the thousands of other belief? You may believe that people can be healed by God, but that doesn't mean that they are. You may even believe that you will rise again after death, in spite of death's obvious permanency.

I don't think that you are a 90lb weakling(which is relative). I think that you may be confused because of early religious indoctrination. I have said many times, that even God himself could not change the minds of people afflicted with this level of dissonance. My comments are not intended for people like you.

No one has ever stated that the ToE is "absolutely right". But this does not imply zero certainty based on zero evidence. So lets replace certainty for truth and proof, whenever speaking about science, shall we? Are you suggesting that an Intelligent Creator, "might be" or "could be" true? How certain are you, and what is your evidence? I am not here to defend the ethicacy of science and the scientific method. This is only a distraction to avoid your burden of proof, and to muddy the waters enough to create doubt. This doubt will cause a void in reasoning and critical thinking. Without critical thinking and reasoning, even the irrational can be perceived as rational. You have no idea about how science works, and you prove it with every post. Science is not black and white, or make unsupported assumptions. Science, again does not do proofs. The fact that you mindlessly keep parroting this, not only demonstrates your poor understanding of science, but also your inability to comprehend the English language.

Godlessness is the idea that humanity needs no higher authority other than himself.

Killing God has some serious consequences. Are you prepared for them?

I have given you my alternative explanation. Sorry if it wasn't "scientific" enough for you. Time will tell who got it right I guess, won't it.

Why do man need an imaginary father figure to watch over him? Why does a God need His creation's consent? I don't want even a real person controlling my behavior, or the choices I make? Let alone any character that I've created in my mind. That would be insane, and delusional. I don't think you can kill anything that doesn't exist? Our created myths and superstitions are still with us, and will never die. Without them , the movie industry would certainly die. What is your alternative explanation again, "God did it all"? Was that it? Also, without any logical substance, your thinly veiled threats and indiscrete warnings, are as convincing as your understanding of science. Non-existent.

 

[Bear Wild]

But definitions given by man don't always sum up the beliefs of others correctly. Our view of Intelligent Design does not necessarily follow what other ID proponents may believe. Our view of Christianity may not be what others classify as "Christian" either. The differences are important I think.
No point in being 'different' unless you can explain the differences. Our beliefs are quite specific; they align with what science "knows" and are reasonable and logical IMV.


I have no beef with science per se...in fact I love science.....its just that one branch that seems so intent on spreading its godlessness all over Earth's population that bothers me. Its not taught as a tentative theory that could be changed tomorrow, but as undeniable fact....and to children!

The undeniable fact is that none of it is "provable". I know how much that word is despised in evolutionary circles......but its the truth.



I have been here a good while and still getting responses....those ignoring me are of no consequence in the big picture.....this is just an internet discussion forum after all......sometimes it seems more like a gladiatorial contest. The atheists here are just as passionate about their "beliefs" as we are.



Can you provide real evidence for that statement? How does science know this when it has never observed it? It can't be tested so it has to be based on assumption.



What did "earlier species of man" look like? And if science couldn't tell a ape skull from a human initially, then where do you think these images came from?

Take your pick.....

You see, the thing is....when science first started to teach evolution to school children the following image was presented very differently. They portrayed early man as stooped and ape-like. But as you can see their findings made them correct their images to reflect something that became apparent...early man was not stooped, but walked upright like we do. But instead of correcting the imagery to reflect a more upright human, the illustrations featured instead an upright walking ape. Its a sneaky bit of illusion. There is no evidence of upright walking apes who evolved in to us.

There is no evidence that all humans were ape-like or even primitive either. Even in today's world, there are still primitive people. Some have features that are very different to the humans we are used to looking at.

Sorry but humans are apes. By the time we see the form we call Homo sapiens our species is upright. The ancestors prior to becoming homo sapiens had more features with the other apes we are familiar with today. Go back further and our earlier ancestors become less like our form today. The same can be said for chimpanzees, gorillas, and orangutans. They all had ancestors that did not look like the current form. The diagram you show is an illustration and cannot give all of the supporting information in such a small space. Again you show you do not have an understanding of evolutionary biology and from all you have said you never want to have an understanding of evolutionary biology. What you do is create long posts with mixed information which can be a technique look like there is so much information against evolution yet none of the information shows anything wrong with the theory of evolution.

 

[Truly Enlightened]

What a strange analogy....a baby and an old person are still the same species. Now if it was a baby ape that died as an old human...that would be much more convincing. Try again.



What is in the fossil record to convince us otherwise? Humans are the last to appear as a species on earth, as the Bible says. Varieties of apes down through time simply reflect the large varieties in many other species of animals. None of them turned into anything like us, did they?

The fact that science had to change their illustrations to reflect their findings of fully upright humans, is proof of how far they will stretch the truth to maintain their credibility.



I already mentioned that there are still primitive people in existence today, co-existing in our modern world. If in a few million years they find their skeletal remains and their tools and evidence of their lifestyle, would they assume that all humans everywhere must have lived that way?

"Remember the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."....that works both ways you know.



Unless you know what a person believes, how do you address them accordingly? I know what you believe but do you know what I believe?
I am not anti-science.....I am a great admirer of science. I am in awe of what it can show us about nature and how it works. It can tell us about the functions of the human body and how all its systems interact and cooperate together to keep us living without us ever to consciously think about any of it...unless something malfunctions and illness ensues. Medical Science can even explain what is wrong and make suggestions about how to treat it. My beef is not with any of that. No other branch of science concentrates on eliminating an Intellegent Designer more than the ToE. It seems to be a very important agenda. But why? What threat can a "myth" possibly be?

For those who are undecided, these forums provide points of view that are diametrically opposed. Our conversations give them food for thought. Isn't that a good thing?

My "weapon", rather that to destroy, is to save. I just hope that people will see the truth and do their own research rather than to just swallow what the choir is singing. Preaching to the converted is a rather useless exercise....isn't it?

What a strange analogy....a baby and an old person are still the same species. Now if it was a baby ape that died as an old human...that would be much more convincing. Try again.

Well I certainly did not expect you to understand this simple analogy. That would require an open mind, and an unbiased worldview. Micro evolution may start with small mutations, during the reproduction cycle within a single species. But over time these small mutations may eventually lead to a completely different species. These mutations can even lead to early primates, producing the ancestor to the modern apes and the early humans. It is impossible to pick the exact moment when this differentiation occurred. We can't determined the exact moment when a newborn becomes an infant, becomes an adolescent, or becomes an adult, can we? So how can we determine the exact moment when speciation occurs? It is an ask that only a God could know. The best we humans can do, is interpret the evidence that supports the hypothesis, and eventually the Theory itself. We can deduce who won the game, by simply seeing the final score. You don't need to watch the entire game, do you? This is deductive reasoning. Evolution has given us this reasoning ability for a reason. If you are in the workshop and you hear the front door slam, shoes and books hit the floor, noise of footsteps running up the stairs, and your child's room door slamming shut, you can logically induce from the evidence that your child has returned home from school. This is inductive reasoning. The more we use both, the more knowledge we acquire, and the more survival advantage we gain.

I already mentioned that there are still primitive people in existence today, co-existing in our modern world. If in a few million years they find their skeletal remains and their tools and evidence of their lifestyle, would they assume that all humans everywhere must have lived that way?

Wow. There are no sub-species of humans. They are all extinct. The fossil remains of these primitive tribes in a few million years, will still be homo sapiens. Although, I believe by that time humans will be extinct. More mute hypotheticals.

For those who are undecided, these forums provide points of view that are diametrically opposed. Our conversations give them food for thought. Isn't that a good thing?

This thread (category) is for debates relating to science and religion. If you simple want to debate your beliefs with other believers, then there are hundreds of other threads you can chose. But if all you can bring to the table is unsupported assertions, threats, proselytizing, and silly assumptions, then you must posit evidence to defend your position. Many atheists, and skeptics want to believe that anything supernatural does exist. So both sides want to believe. But only one side requires evidence to believe, not faith. If you can't(like this poster), then don't expect the same positive reinforcement that you may receive from non-science religious threads. In other words, don't preach outside the choir, if you want to maintain the illusion of intellectual and logical superiority.

What threat can a "myth" possibly be?

Try asking that same question to the survivors of 9/11? I'm sure that those accused of heresy during the Inquisition might have a different view of the threat of a myth. Or those accused of witchcraft in Salem, might also have a different idea of how a myth can become a serious threat.

A mind is such a terrible thing to waste.

 

[ecco]

Our view of Intelligent Design does not necessarily follow what other ID proponents may believe.

Every IDer's view is GodDidIt.

 

[ecco]

I have no beef with science per se...in fact I love science.....

I guess it was another DeeJe who posted...

Only in this "time of the end" have they developed their 'science' to the point where life itself is under threat.

Poisonous chemicals and plastics are choking our planet.
Man-made pollution clogs the air we breathe, the food we eat, and the water we drink. The health implications are obvious. This leads to humans seeking medical help for all their subsequent ailments. Artificial chemical compounds that are manufactured by the ton, become medications which are taken by a major proportion of populations, especially in the West.....but no one seems to understand where all that chemical poison ends up. They are excreted by the humans who take them, and they end up being pumped into the ocean outfalls, poisoning marine life.

Add to that man's ability to harness the atom (another gift of science) so that we are now capable of ruining the earth and obliterating all life on it. Aren't you proud of man's scientific achievements?​

... because those words sure don't sound like they came from someone who loves science.

 

[ecco]

When only one team is on the field, its not much of a game really, and who cares about the winner if there are no others allowed on the field?

Everyone is allowed to play. All people can field teams. In regards to this discussion, one team is made up of people who get undergraduate, masters and doctorate level education. These people spend years doing research. These people publish papers showing their theories, experiments, and findings. These published papers are reviewed by people with similar educational backgrounds.

The other team is mostly people with very strong religious beliefs and no training in the subject fields.

To further your sports analogy, it's like professional football players vs eight-year-old Pop Warner Mitey-Mites.

Remember, this is your analogy. Do you really believe that eight-year-olds are qualified to play on professional teams?

 

[ecco]

I don't think I need to go there to explain about my Creator.

We will leave the assertions, assumptions and suggestions to the experts.....who keep telling us they have no "proof" for anything they believe,

You don't need to explain anything about your Creator, but you expect science to "PROVE" things to you. Hmm.

As you have been told repeatedly, science is not in the business of "proving", science is in the business of accumulating evidence. The people who accumulate this evidence have no interest in convincing you or any JW or any fundie of the validity of their evidence. People like me and others on this forum can show you this evidence, but there are two problems:

1. You don't have the education to understand the evidence.
2. Your religious bias, as you expressed above, would prevent you from accepting the evidence even if you could understand it.

 

[ecco]

Doesn't evolution teach that single celled organisms were the first to exist and then somehow they saw the need to replicate themselves and evolve into multi-cellular life?

Evolution doesn't teach anything, it is a subject to be studied.

If you are referring to scientists, then no. That is not what they teach.

 

[ecco]

Excuse me, but we don't believe that the Creator "poofed" anything into existence..

I think "poofed" summarizes "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" rather well. Do you have a better word?

..that is what science believes about the first living organism.

Why do you keep spouting this nonsense? That is not what science believes.

How else do you explain something for which science has found no demonstrable explanation?

Science explains it by stating that the answer is currently unknown. One hundred fifty years ago it was unknown that the atom was comprised of smaller things like protons and electrons. Eighty years ago it was unknown that electrons and protons were comprised of smaller things like quarks.

Science has no problem with "currently unknown". Theists, on the other hand, loathe admitting they don't know everything, so they just say GodDidIt.

But we can't talk about abiogenesis because that raises questions that science can't answer....we know what a sore point that is for y'all.

More nonsense. We have no problem at all talking about it. It's just a pain in the butt to have to keep reminding people that evolution and abiogenesis are two different fields of study.

There is significant progress being made constantly in the field of abiogenesis. If you are really interested (we know you aren't) you could do a google search.

 

[ecco]

One of the most nonsensical teachings of the JW's is that if one accepts the ToE then they are somehow "Godless", thus ignoring the fact that a great many Christians, including a majority of Christian theologians, believe in theistic evolution (God-guided evolution). Therefore, they use the issue of evolution as a sort of "litmus test" to determine who the "true believers" are and, of course, they think they're the only "true believers".

Do JWs really believe mainstream Protestants are true Christians?

 

[Deeje]

I never intend for these posts to be so long.....but there is so much to address.....

In other words, you need to create an imaginary reality to replace an actual reality.

My reality is as "provable" as yours is. The fact that science is testy about the word "prove" speaks volumes to me.

You need to create your own myths and superstitions, to give your life meaning and purpose.

Must be something in the DNA.....or the water. Collectively, most thinking humans need meaning and purpose in their lives.....its why so many can't accept evolution, because it rules out all meaning to our existence. It robs man of a future and it takes away all appreciation for the intelligence and purpose of the one who put it all together so ingeniously. You can believe that it is all just a series of fortunate accidents if you like, but flukes have their statistical limit surely?

You need to follow the directions of an ecclesiastic, apparitional, spiritual father figure, to atone for some imaginary sin you have created. You need to maintain the hope that when we die, we will somehow live again as a spirit.

Nope, don't believe that either. We follow the directions of the manufacturer....always a good idea, but some people just never get the wisdom of doing that, and then wonder why things go belly up.

We didn't create the sin...we are victims of it.....like some terminal genetic disorder that robs us of life; of peace and security....and moves people to make very selfish decisions. Do you know anyone, especially in positions of power, who are not afflicted?

In other words, you must abandon all semblance of common sense and critical thinking, and adopt a position that a cognitive conception can exist outside of the mind.

I don't believe that human consciousness can exist outside of the mind. You really know nothing about what I believe. The Bible does not teach that humans can continue to live on after the death of the body. We cease to exist when our brain dies. Science backs that up...right? (Ecclesiastes 5; 10)

Unfortunately, this is the definition of a delusion.

I don't have that delusion.

You may believe that you will be held up by angels if you jump off a building, but reality can become very sobering indeed.

Nope, I don't believe that either. Gravity is there for a reason...even Jesus wasn't that stupid. (Luke 4:9-12)

You may believe that your prayers will be answered, but reality unfortunately paints a different picture.

You mean the prayers that treat God like some kind of invisible wizard in the sky so that when you ask him for something, he should automatically grant your every wish? "Please God let me win the lottery".

Nope, not what I believe at all. I certainly believe in the power of prayer but it is nothing like that. I have had so many prayers answered, but like every good parent, sometimes the answer is "no"....and sometimes they are answered in ways we do not expect.

You may believe that yours is the true belief, but why yours, and not any of the thousands of other belief?

Like you, I accept what resonates with me.....who says yours is the true belief? You see, I was a believer in evolution once, but my logic would not allow me to put incredible complexity down to flukes....millions of them. I was not blinded by the science. That was over 40 years ago......but the more I research the subject even now, the more unbelievable it becomes.

You may believe that people can be healed by God, but that doesn't mean that they are.

No faith healing today sorry.

You may even believe that you will rise again after death, in spite of death's obvious permanency.

That is the Bible's promise. You don't have to believe it.

 

[Deeje]

I don't think that you are a 90lb weakling(which is relative). I think that you may be confused because of early religious indoctrination. I have said many times, that even God himself could not change the minds of people afflicted with this level of dissonance. My comments are not intended for people like you.

I am always amazed that those who accuse others of cognitive dissonance, usually suffer from it themselves. Funny how people can only recognize it in others. I guess that is why there is so much of it. I see YEC and evolution as equals in that race.

No one has ever stated that the ToE is "absolutely right". But this does not imply zero certainty based on zero evidence.

Well, you could have fooled me......ever watched Richard Dawkins? He does a pretty good imitation of stating that its "absolutely right". Perhaps he is also confused about the difference between evidence and facts? It's contagious apparently, especially when you have to use ridicule to make people feel compelled to accept it.
Regardless of which camp we choose, it should be done without guilt.

So lets replace certainty for truth and proof, whenever speaking about science, shall we?

No sorry, let's not. Let's allow the facts to speak for themselves without putting a biased spin on interpretation? That sounds a little more "scientific", don't you think?...or is it?

Are you suggesting that an Intelligent Creator, "might be" or "could be" true? How certain are you, and what is your evidence?

For me there is no "might be" or "could be".....my relationship with my Creator is very personal. He has guided my decisions and pointed me in the right direction more times than I can count. This is obviously outside of your own personal experience, so what more can I say? He is as real to me as is his creation. All this complexity didn't just pop into existence for no reason. Where is your evidence that it did?

I am not here to defend the ethicacy of science and the scientific method. This is only a distraction to avoid your burden of proof, and to muddy the waters enough to create doubt. This doubt will cause a void in reasoning and critical thinking. Without critical thinking and reasoning, even the irrational can be perceived as rational.

Yes I know, but please apply the same criteria to judge your own position, which seems highly irrational and devoid of critical thinking to me.

You have no idea about how science works, and you prove it with every post. Science is not black and white, or make unsupported assumptions. Science, again does not do proofs.

Yes we see that.....but it acts like it does.....that's the problem. It is taught to impressionable children like its a proven fact. They grow up to be adults who have never been encouraged to make any comparisons except to the nonsensical scenarios that evolutionists present. There is middle ground if you just take an honest approach.

The fact that you mindlessly keep parroting this, not only demonstrates your poor understanding of science, but also your inability to comprehend the English language.

There it is........this is what inevitably happens in every conversation on this topic...it always descends into personal insults, so that evolutionists can mask the fact that they have no real facts. The most revealing form of defense is "attack". Its a bit pathetic really, but not surprising. It's what you guys always have to fall back on when the realize that your theory has no real evidence to back it up. I feel your frustration.

Why do man need an imaginary father figure to watch over him?

Why do children need parents? What would happen if children were left to raise themselves?

Why does a God need His creation's consent?

He doesn't. His plans for his own creation will go ahead with us or without us....he gives us the opportunity to be part of those plans, but he will never force anyone.

I don't want even a real person controlling my behavior, or the choices I make?

And therein lies the bottom line. The fact is, God does not want those who can't be told. A bit like an army whose soldiers can't obey orders. Are such ones tolerated in the military? Why not?

If you don't want God.....he doesn't want you....that is not hard to comprehend is it? If you owe him nothing, then he owes you nothing.
Why should we be surprised?

Let alone any character that I've created in my mind.

This character is not just in a single person's mind.....he exists in the minds of millions....perhaps more than believe in evolution?

Can the idea of a higher power be a basic part of human existence from its beginnings and then be crushed out of existence in a mere century of time? That depends on the propaganda and how convincing it is I guess. He won't interfere.....how much is enough rope?

Our created myths and superstitions are still with us, and will never die. Without them , the movie industry would certainly die.

Exactly....where do you think the idea for superheros came from? Why are they so popular? Because they tap into a collective desire in humans to be 'rescued'. What do they need rescuing from? They want to see good triumph over evil.....a need in us for truth and justice (but God help us, NOT the American way)

without any logical substance, your thinly veiled threats and indiscrete warnings, are as convincing as your understanding of science. Non-existent.

If you say so.....but right throughout the Bible there are warnings. We are given choices and subsequent outcomes so that when we choose a course of action we can contemplate where it might lead us. That way we have no one to blame but ourselves if the warning is not heeded and the consequence is experienced. That is fair isn't it?

 

[Deeje]

Every IDer's view is GodDidIt.

And evolution's view is....."God doesn't exist, so he couldn't do any of it, therefore we must invent ways to make God redundant".
Each of these opposite views are a mindset.....you do understand what a mindset is I assume?

I guess it was another DeeJe who posted...

Only in this "time of the end" have they developed their 'science' to the point where life itself is under threat.

Poisonous chemicals and plastics are choking our planet.
Man-made pollution clogs the air we breathe, the food we eat, and the water we drink. The health implications are obvious. This leads to humans seeking medical help for all their subsequent ailments. Artificial chemical compounds that are manufactured by the ton, become medications which are taken by a major proportion of populations, especially in the West.....but no one seems to understand where all that chemical poison ends up. They are excreted by the humans who take them, and they end up being pumped into the ocean outfalls, poisoning marine life.

Add to that man's ability to harness the atom (another gift of science) so that we are now capable of ruining the earth and obliterating all life on it. Aren't you proud of man's scientific achievements?​

... because those words sure don't sound like they came from someone who loves science.

Well, I guess this is again the difference between what science "knows" and what science believes". I love what science can reveal about the natural world and the efficiency of the biological mechanisms that allow all living things to function as they should. That has little to do with macro-evolution.

The fact that sin (i.e. the propensity in all humans to act selfishly) is directing men of science to create things that are killing the planet and us along with it, shows that you cannot differentiate. Science isn't the problem...humans are.

Everyone is allowed to play. All people can field teams. In regards to this discussion, one team is made up of people who get undergraduate, masters and doctorate level education. These people spend years doing research. These people publish papers showing their theories, experiments, and findings. These published papers are reviewed by people with similar educational backgrounds.

The other team is mostly people with very strong religious beliefs and no training in the subject fields.

To further your sports analogy, it's like professional football players vs eight-year-old Pop Warner Mitey-Mites.

Like David and Goliath perhaps? At least Goliath allowed David the opportunity to take him on, confident of victory over such a pathetic, unprotected opponent.....he severely underestimated who was on David's side though. The giant's size and the weight of his armor was no match for a boy with precisely placed pebble and a slingshot. Its a powerful image and a very appropriate scenario for this thread I think.

Remember, this is your analogy. Do you really believe that eight-year-olds are qualified to play on professional teams?

You mean that professional football leagues would allow a match played against 8 year olds? Really? Who would take such a match seriously?
And that is the very reason why science takes the high ground....it sees itself as Goliath....we see ourselves as David. Let's see who wins.

You don't need to explain anything about your Creator, but you expect science to "PROVE" things to you. Hmm.

I am the one with the belief system...I need no evidence apart from what is right in front of my eyes. Science is the one that claims to have mountains of "overwhelming evidence", yet when you examine the structure of this impressive edifice, you find that the foundations are made of matchsticks. Attention is never directed at the flimsy foundations for obvious reasons.

As you have been told repeatedly, science is not in the business of "proving", science is in the business of accumulating evidence. The people who accumulate this evidence have no interest in convincing you or any JW or any fundie of the validity of their evidence. People like me and others on this forum can show you this evidence

They have.....and its full of "might haves" and "could haves" and "this leads us to the conclusion that...." This is not the language of true science....it is the language of supposition and assumption. Anyone who is not "overwhelmed" will see that the evidence is biastly interpreted to support their pet theory.

but there are two problems:

1. You don't have the education to understand the evidence

I don't need an education to understand the evidence. Broken down to a simple explanation (that can't hide behind scientific jargon,) there is no real foundation for anything you believe that happened outside of science's testable limits. No matter how educated we are, the simple truth is all we need.

2. Your religious bias, as you expressed above, would prevent you from accepting the evidence even if you could understand it.

And your own indoctrination would do the same for yourself. You don't believe that you are indoctrinated though...do you? Neither do I....see the problem?

Evolution doesn't teach anything, it is a subject to be studied.

If you are referring to scientists, then no. That is not what they teach.

But the "science"of evolution is taught in school to children who have no way to argue against it. They are taught as if it was fact, so by the time they reach university level, there is no other way to explain the world apart from evolution. They are left with the conclusion that religion is just for uneducated fanatics who don't know the facts....right? They are never taught that facts in evolutionary science are largely based on suggestion by assuming things about the processes that they created in their imagination. Every piece of evidence had to be squeezed into one box. A box that doesn't have room for an Intelligent Designer.

I think "poofed" summarizes "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" rather well. Do you have a better word?

Yes..."created".

Its what artists do when they have the right materials. Its what engineers do when creating a piece of machinery designed for a specific purpose. Its what carpenters do when they build a house. No "poofing" required. They have an idea that turns into a plan, and the plan is executed by someone with the intelligence to guide and direct the process.

It is science that imagines a "poofing"....that is how life just popped in to existence with no cause, no purpose, and no direction to follow. What better word do you have?

Science explains it by stating that the answer is currently unknown. One hundred fifty years ago it was unknown that the atom was comprised of smaller things like protons and electrons. Eighty years ago it was unknown that electrons and protons were comprised of smaller things like quarks.

Do quarks prove evolution? Does understanding the make up of atoms confirm your theory in any way?
Has science learned things in the last eighty years? We certainly hope so. But it hasn't been able to confirm that macroevolution ever happened. I believe that there is a reason for that......like finding a natural cause for the spontaneous production of life.....there isn't one.

Science has no problem with "currently unknown". Theists, on the other hand, loathe admitting they don't know everything, so they just say GodDidIt.

It appears to me that science 'loathes' any mention of an Intelligent Designer......so when science claims to have all the evidence, it really doesn't sit well to say "I dunno", whilst categorically stating that God can't exist and ridiculing anyone who claims he does.

What if it is the existence of this Creator that is "currently unknown"? And if you encounter him at some time in the future, what will that mean for all those people who told everyone else that believing in him was for uneducated fools?

More nonsense. We have no problem at all talking about it. It's just a pain in the butt to have to keep reminding people that evolution and abiogenesis are two different fields of study.

Its the distance that evolutionists give to abiogenesis as if what they study has nothing to do with what evolutionists teach. You honestly believe that they are unconnected? What is the point of studying how life changed if you have no idea how it began?

There is significant progress being made constantly in the field of abiogenesis. If you are really interested (we know you aren't) you could do a google search.

What do you call "significant"? They will never be able to create life, regardless of how many chemical 'soups' they experiment with......does it occur to you that men with intelligence are baffled by this and need to use their intelligence even to investigate it?

Do JWs really believe mainstream Protestants are true Christians?

We do not believe that any of Christendom's churches teach the truth of the Bible. It is what Jesus foretold. If they did follow Christ's teachings, they would be out there with us spreading the Christian message in all the world before the foretold "end" comes". (Matthew 24:14) Its part of the fulfillment of the prophesy regarding the "last days" of this present system of things ruling the earth. We believe that it is all about to come to a very violent conclusion. (Matthew 24:21) No one has to believe what we say, but time will tell I guess. The timing is in God's hands not ours. Since Jesus is the one that foretold it.....I believe him.

 

[Truly Enlightened]

I never intend for these posts to be so long.....but there is so much to address.....



My reality is as "provable" as yours is. The fact that science is testy about the word "prove" speaks volumes to me.



Must be something in the DNA.....or the water. Collectively, most thinking humans need meaning and purpose in their lives.....its why so many can't accept evolution, because it rules out all meaning to our existence. It robs man of a future and it takes away all appreciation for the intelligence and purpose of the one who put it all together so ingeniously. You can believe that it is all just a series of fortunate accidents if you like, but flukes have their statistical limit surely?



Nope, don't believe that either. We follow the directions of the manufacturer....always a good idea, but some people just never get the wisdom of doing that, and then wonder why things go belly up.

We didn't create the sin...we are victims of it.....like some terminal genetic disorder that robs us of life; of peace and security....and moves people to make very selfish decisions. Do you know anyone, especially in positions of power, who are not afflicted?



I don't believe that human consciousness can exist outside of the mind. You really know nothing about what I believe. The Bible does not teach that humans can continue to live on after the death of the body. We cease to exist when our brain dies. Science backs that up...right? (Ecclesiastes 5; 10)



I don't have that delusion.



Nope, I don't believe that either. Gravity is there for a reason...even Jesus wasn't that stupid. (Luke 4:9-12)



You mean the prayers that treat God like some kind of invisible wizard in the sky so that when you ask him for something, he should automatically grant your every wish? "Please God let me win the lottery".

Nope, not what I believe at all. I certainly believe in the power of prayer but it is nothing like that. I have had so many prayers answered, but like every good parent, sometimes the answer is "no"....and sometimes they are answered in ways we do not expect.



Like you, I accept what resonates with me.....who says yours is the true belief? You see, I was a believer in evolution once, but my logic would not allow me to put incredible complexity down to flukes....millions of them. I was not blinded by the science. That was over 40 years ago......but the more I research the subject even now, the more unbelievable it becomes.



No faith healing today sorry.



That is the Bible's promise. You don't have to believe it.

My reality is as "provable" as yours is. The fact that science is testy about the word "prove" speaks volumes to me.

If you think that scientist are quaking in their labs, every time you use the word "proof/prove", then you are truly delusional. Even a child would understand that there are degrees of certainty, that are "close enough to be good enough". Does "God did it all" represent your highest degree of certainty? Does the Bible represent your highest level of objective evidence? It is you that should be understandably "testy" whenever you hear the words "objective evidence". Scientists don't waste their time trying to disprove or prove unfalsifiable cultural myths and superstitions. Once you make claims that something exists outside of science, then you have the burden of proof to demonstrate that claim. Of course, you avoid that responsibility like the plague. Lets hear the "proof" of your reality? If you mean our shared reality, then I will stipulate to this. If you mean your religious supernatural reality, then I'm all ears.

All you have done in this post, is give flippant answers to my questions and concerns. I believe that I have purpose and meaning in my life. It is certainly not threatened by my understanding of the falsifiable principles of Evolution. Do animals need purpose for their survival? Of course not. Are animals aware of their purpose? No. If you need to justify your improbable existence with purpose, then purpose is only an emotional security blanket. It plays no role in our survival(like the meaning of life). Purpose is also not exempt from the rules of evidence. It also must be determined and demonstrated. Otherwise, you can give yourself any purpose you want, just like your belief in a God. Are you also saying that your invisible imaginary God should be our purpose? Are you also saying that your God just didn't make many of us wise enough to see this? I believe that if we close our eyes, and cover our ears, we can convince ourselves that anything is true. That is, until we remove our hands, and open our eyes. Unfortunately, many choose to remain insulated from reality, because the evidence would force them to change reality itself, to accommodate their religious reality.

What sin? Who says that I am a victim of sin? A made-up story about disobedience children in a garden, from a book written for children and peasant farmers? It is only conflict, age, dissonance, insecurity, genetic expression, and anxiety that robs us of life, temperament, and emotional security. It is also the internal psychological battle between the Id and the Ego, that is the driving force behind our human condition.

Anyway, since you are just digging your heals in, as though you are being cornered by science, I won't bother addressing the rest of your nonsense. Except to say, that if your mind is this adverse to scientific reasoning, then why don't you join one of the 7 Theocratic Governments, that also share your level of religious commitment/Ideology? But, be careful what you wish for. ​

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

My reality is as "provable" as yours is.

Actually, it's not. My reality is inside this room and outside this house. Yours is an imagined future predicated on the promises of an unseen promiser, who is likely just another human being with no special knowledge.

Collectively, most thinking humans need meaning and purpose in their lives.....its why so many can't accept evolution, because it rules out all meaning to our existence. It robs man of a future and it takes away all appreciation for the intelligence and purpose of the one who put it all together so ingeniously.

My life is meaningful to me without the need for a god belief. Too bad that you can't say the same. It means that you find no other meaning to life if there is no god.

That is the Bible's promise. You don't have to believe it.

Why would I? Why do you?

I see YEC and evolution as equals in that race.

I see all forms of creationism as equal, including yours, and evolution as distinct from them all. Evolution is the one that has been useful.

Yes we see that.....but it acts like it does.....that's the problem. It is taught to impressionable children like its a proven fact. They grow up to be adults who have never been encouraged to make any comparisons except to the nonsensical scenarios that evolutionists present.

If you have an alternative you'd like to present, perhaps you should be getting out on the streets and knocking on doors to teach it. If your alternative is convincing, you'll attract droves to your churches. If they are uninterested, perhaps its because your message isn't as compelling as you think it is. Perhaps the fault doean't lie with the success of the science teachers in schools, but the failure of others to produce a believable alternative. It isn't very believable when you present it here.

If they did follow Christ's teachings, they would be out there with us spreading the Christian message in all the world before the foretold "end" comes"

Isn't this where you should be teaching whatever it is that you think the schools should be teaching? Make your best case against evolution and see if it gains traction. You're already visiting every home.

As I said, maybe your message is the problem, and not the schools. Your message is being pretty unanimously rejected here by those not already predisposed to believe it on faith.

he gives us the opportunity to be part of those plans, but he will never force anyone.

Yeah, yeah, we know about this indolent god, who takes every opportunity to imitate a nonexistent god.

You've already ignored the following a few times, a pretty good indicator that you have no answer to it.

Why, when given the choice between demonstrating skills and powers that could only be accounted for by a god - an active, sentient, intelligent, volitional agent capable of creating and manipulating universes - does this god invariably choose to do what would occur if no god or gods existed?

I've demonstrated to you that this is strong evidence that no intercessory god exists, as a coin coming up tails every time it is flipped becomes evidence that the coin is loaded and that heads was never a possible outcome. Your god keeps flipping tails - the outcome associated with no god.

He won't interfere.

Of course he won't. Neither will Odin or Marduk.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

right throughout the Bible there are warnings

There should be one on the cover.

We are given choices and subsequent outcomes so that when we choose a course of action we can contemplate where it might lead us.

We do that without Bibles. I've been doing it without a Bible for 35 years, and I ended up right where I wanted to be. I have no complaints about my life.

That way we have no one to blame but ourselves if the warning is not heeded and the consequence is experienced. That is fair isn't it?

If you are correct, isn't it also true that you have nobody but yourself to blame for believing these warnings for no apparent reason, and letting them determine your life's course?

How about if the warnings are rejected and no adverse consequence results? Does that mean that one should credit himself for not heeding a warning that had it been heeded, would have taken life in a different and less desirable direction? Or maybe you consider going out and knocking on people's doors dressed like last century a desirable life even if based on falsehoods.

The world is filled with people making such religious pronouncements, none more credible than yours. It's best to ignore them all. There is no reason to believe any of them.

And evolution's view is....."God doesn't exist, so he couldn't do any of it, therefore we must invent ways to make God redundant".

If your god can be rendered redundant, then isn't it redundant?

Incidentally, the theory of evolution doesn't mention God or teach anything about that hypothesis. It simply has no need of it. You won't find the word "God" in any scientific theory. Since it's not needed and explains nothing, it would be redundant.

Science isn't the problem...humans are.

Faith based thinking is the problem.

You mean that professional football leagues would allow a match played against 8 year olds? Really? Who would take such a match seriously?

Bingo. Now you understand how you are perceived in a forum full of people well versed in evolutionary science. Now you understand the place of the creationists in the view of the scientific community. They want to play ball and be viewed as equals, but they bring nerf balls to the game.

I don't need an education to understand the evidence.

Yes you do. You still don't understand the difference between evidence and proof, and the roles that they do and do not play in science. You can't see evidence placed before your eyes.

the "science"of evolution is taught in school to children who have no way to argue against it.

They also have no reason to argue against it, unlike what they are taught in Sunday school.

They are taught as if it was fact, so by the time they reach university level, there is no other way to explain the world apart from evolution.

Evolution is a scientific fact. It should be taught as such in science classes, the objections of religious dissenters notwithstanding.

They are left with the conclusion that religion is just for uneducated fanatics who don't know the facts....right?

Are you aware that you contribute to that impression. That's what you do here. If you want to present a more respectable dissenting opinion, you're going to need to learn the science. I have been explaining this to you for months. You really owe it to yourself to step outside of yourself and see the face that you present. It's the one you just described.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Does understanding the make up of atoms confirm your theory in any way?

There you go again, failing to grasp what was written. Atoms, protons and quarks were only mentioned as a progression in man's understanding of a field unrelated to evolution. They were mentioned to illustrate that it's fine that we haven't unraveled every problem yet, and that the answer to some questions is still, "We don't know."

Somehow, you missed that and have dragged subatomic particles into the discussion of evolution. You had similar difficulty when I was describing sterile, faith-based systems of thought like alchemy, astrology, and ID, and you conflated them, objecting because your Bible warns you about the first two. You missed the point there as well.

It appears to me that science 'loathes' any mention of an Intelligent Designer

I've already explained to you many times that science has made no comment on intelligent designers. If only fundamentalist religion could say the same about its treatment of science and scientists. It is the religious doing the loathing.

Science is indifferent to that reaction as well. Fundamentalists see themselves as being a force to be reckoned with by science. Science sees it differently. Or maybe I should say indifferently.

What is the point of studying how life changed if you have no idea how it began?

These are the kinds of questions that undermine your apparent purpose. Why should somebody who can't answer this question be taken seriously?

They will never be able to create life, regardless of how many chemical 'soups' they experiment with

That's very likely untrue. Chemical evolution from atoms and simple molecules to a living replicator is thought of as a chain. Presently, many links of the chain are still missing, which is all you see. What can be seen by those not encumbered by a faith-based confirmation bias is that many link are now present, their numbers growing steadily. We have no reason to believe that life didn't arise like this, nor that we can't eventually replicate it in a lab.

 

[Truly Enlightened]

I am always amazed that those who accuse others of cognitive dissonance, usually suffer from it themselves. Funny how people can only recognize it in others. I guess that is why there is so much of it. I see YEC and evolution as equals in that race.



Well, you could have fooled me......ever watched Richard Dawkins? He does a pretty good imitation of stating that its "absolutely right". Perhaps he is also confused about the difference between evidence and facts? It's contagious apparently, especially when you have to use ridicule to make people feel compelled to accept it.
Regardless of which camp we choose, it should be done without guilt.



No sorry, let's not. Let's allow the facts to speak for themselves without putting a biased spin on interpretation? That sounds a little more "scientific", don't you think?...or is it?



For me there is no "might be" or "could be".....my relationship with my Creator is very personal. He has guided my decisions and pointed me in the right direction more times than I can count. This is obviously outside of your own personal experience, so what more can I say? He is as real to me as is his creation. All this complexity didn't just pop into existence for no reason. Where is your evidence that it did?



Yes I know, but please apply the same criteria to judge your own position, which seems highly irrational and devoid of critical thinking to me.



Yes we see that.....but it acts like it does.....that's the problem. It is taught to impressionable children like its a proven fact. They grow up to be adults who have never been encouraged to make any comparisons except to the nonsensical scenarios that evolutionists present. There is middle ground if you just take an honest approach.



There it is........this is what inevitably happens in every conversation on this topic...it always descends into personal insults, so that evolutionists can mask the fact that they have no real facts. The most revealing form of defense is "attack". Its a bit pathetic really, but not surprising. It's what you guys always have to fall back on when the realize that your theory has no real evidence to back it up. I feel your frustration.



Why do children need parents? What would happen if children were left to raise themselves?



He doesn't. His plans for his own creation will go ahead with us or without us....he gives us the opportunity to be part of those plans, but he will never force anyone.



And therein lies the bottom line. The fact is, God does not want those who can't be told. A bit like an army who soldiers can't obey orders. Are such ones tolerated in the military? Why not?

If you don't want God.....he doesn't want you....that is not hard to comprehend is it? If you owe him nothing, then he owes you nothing.
Why should we be surprised?



This character is not just in a single person's mind.....he exists in the minds of millions....perhaps more than believe in evolution?

Can the idea of a higher power be a basic part of human existence from its beginnings and then be crushed out of existence in a mere century of time? That depends on the propaganda and how convincing it is I guess. He won't interfere.....how much is enough rope?



Exactly....where do you think the idea for superheros came from? Why are they so popular? Because they tap into a collective desire in humans to be 'rescued'. What do they need rescuing from? They want to see good triumph over evil.....a need in us for truth and justice (but God help us, NOT the American way)

If you say so.....but right throughout the Bible there are warnings. We are given choices and subsequent outcomes so that when we choose a course of action we can contemplate where it might lead us. That way we have no one to blame but ourselves if the warning is not heeded and the consequence is experienced. That is fair isn't it?

Look, I'm not going to keep wading through all your straw man fallacies. If you want to keep parroting that science can't prove you wrong, then be my guest. No one cares. If you want to keep avoiding, deflecting, and misrepresenting my comments with flippant remarks to save face, then you are at least consistent with other believers. If you just believe in the existence of anything outside of the laws of physics, then it is none of my business.

All I am saying, is that there is no evidence(not proof), exists to support this claim. At least not in the physical reality. If a multi-omni entity existed in our physical reality, we would see evidence of this. We don't. If this entity exists outside of our physical reality, then it would not effect our reality at all. So what exactly are you worshiping? If you could just demonstrate ONE verifiable objective example, of a supernatural event, a miracle, a paranormal activity, or the consistency of the power of prayer, then you would have gained the attention of science. There is still a million dollar prize(since the 60's) for anyone who could demonstrate any paranormal ability, or any evidence for its existence. Maybe you can demonstrate any verifiable, and detailed prophesy. Maybe just ONE example of a violation of the laws of physics and chemistry. In fact, an example of anything that cannot be explained by any natural means, or by simply stating "I don't know yet".

And therein lies the bottom line. The fact is, God does not want those who can't be told. A bit like an army who soldiers can't obey orders. Are such ones tolerated in the military? Why not?
If you don't want God.....he doesn't want you....that is not hard to comprehend is it? If you owe him nothing, then he owes you nothing.
Why should we be surprised?

I think what is surprising and hard to comprehend, is how any rational human being could reach this level of obsequious submission. I'm afraid that elitism, and religious intolerance is far too ingrained into your psyche. If I am wrong in my disbelief, at least I have already experienced death for billions of years before this life. Why would I fear death in this life? I have no illusions, based on the overwhelming evidence, that death is permanent. Since there is no evidence of any resurrections, an afterlife, heaven or hell, pearly gates, the spiritual, or a human soul, then what happens after death is beyond my control or my awareness. Just like the billions of years before. I believe that it is only about what we want to believe is real. Not what is real. Maybe this video might help, maybe not.

So maybe next time you could address my questions. What do you say? No questions, just answers. No rhetorical editorializing, just evidence or demonstrations. Even one fallacy-free argument will do.