The Miracle of Water.

[SkepticThinker]

I have a sword and a shield that I believe is equal to yours. (Ephesians 6:16-17)
If it isn't a contest that you want to win, why are you in the arena?
If you think that your opponent is a 90lb unarmed weakling, why is he (she) still standing? Why do these threads get so much traffic?

To enter this arena means that only one leaves alive. We actually believe that people's future lives depend on making a clear decision about this issue. But the arena has lots of spectators who will give either a 'thumbs up' or a 'thumbs down' depending on how skillfully we use our defensive and offensive weapons. My weapon is the Bible and my shield is my faith. I have confidence that both are well made......I know the manufacturer very well.

Have you checked your own sword and shield lately? Perhaps you yourself are relying on "denial, arrogance, convoluted logic, and parroted nonsense"? Would you know?



If the ToE is not "absolutely right" then people have sacrificed belief in an Intelligent Creator for what? "It "might be" or "could be" true? Is that really good enough to bet your life on? That is what I believe is at stake here.

As a species we have collective expectations, abilities and thought processes that are unique to us.....these separate us from all other living things. We might be made of the same materials and even exhibit a similar framework, but our capabilities are so far ahead of any other creature on this planet. Suggesting that we evolved from creatures who have not shown anywhere close to our abilities or intellectual capacity and remain largely unaltered by time, is a stretch that only science could create......not with real evidence, but with assumptions and wild suggestions made all the more plausible with detailed diagrams and computer generated imagery that makes it look like it is a provable fact. It isn't anywhere close...and more people are being made aware of it. Knowledge is power, but only if it's accurate.



"You don't understand how science works" .....I have heard that umpteen times.....well, I'm sorry but I do know the basics of how science works. If the knowledge is not based on provable facts then it is based on something else. What could that be? All they have are assumptions about what "might have" happened when they have no proof that it ever did. I believe that this is leading people down a dark path.
Where there is no proof, there is no truth. So who do we believe? Excusing the lack of proof is just pathetic IMO. But of course, its up to all of us to make that choice.



Godlessness is the idea that humanity needs no higher authority other than himself.

The world we live in is proof that humans who think they don't need God, or his rules.....(or those who think he might be 'out there somewhere', but is not interested in what they are doing.....) are hopeless at governing themselves or taking care of their only home. They exploit the earth and each other, leading us all to the very real threat of extinction at their own hand....and science has contributed to that situation like no other human endeavor. You want facts? There they are. Aren't you proud of science? There's no one to answer to?......or is there? What if he is just giving all humans "enough rope"?



Who says? Science can tell us a lot about biological functions and mechanisms, but putting the cause down to evolution beyond testable limits is what has created this issue. Its nothing more than educated guessing.
Killing God has some serious consequences. Are you prepared for them?



I have given you my alternative explanation. Sorry if it wasn't "scientific" enough for you. Time will tell who got it right I guess, won't it.

One thing is certain though.....no one can make the Creator go away, no matter how intelligent they want to sound at the funeral they are conducting for him. Rumors about his demise are highly exaggerated.....but there is a coffin and it is not empty, I believe that it will contain a dead theory and all who thought that a Creator was not scientific enough for them. I don't believe it has to end that way unless we choose our beliefs for the wrong reasons.

If you've heard it "umpteen times" did it ever occur to you that maybe there might be something to it? Especially when multiple people are mentioning it?

Call me crazy but if people kept correcting me on something that I kept repeating, I'd take the time to exercise a little introspection and investigate as to why people are telling me this. But I'm one of those people who doesn't want to believe and repeat false things; and maybe you're not.

 

[ecco]

The fact that science is testy about the word "prove" speaks volumes to me.

Science is not testy about the word "prove". Science, actually all rational people, get testy when people deliberately misuse words and mis-attribute words and intentionally misrepresent what others say.

You'll note that non-theists don't ask theists for proof of God. We know that would be unfair since theists can not even provide any evidence in support of their beliefs.

 

[ecco]

Gravity is there for a reason

Do you really believe in gravity?

Are you absolutely certain that it isn't just little invisible angels pulling and pushing "down" on things?

How can you know for sure?

You sure can't "Prove" that's wrong.

 

[ecco]

And evolution's view is....."God doesn't exist, so he couldn't do any of it, therefore we must invent ways to make God redundant".

No one is inventing ways to make God redundant.

In the past, and even now, people tried to explain nature. When they couldn't, they invented gods. They attributed all manner of things to gods: the beginnings of everything, earthquakes, famines, floods, good harvests, bad harvests, eternal life.

What is happening now is that people are realizing what nature really is. They know that gods are not the causes of the beginnings of everything, earthquakes, famines, floods, good harvests, bad harvests, eternal life.

I guess there are still some people who believe that gods are the causes of the beginnings of everything, earthquakes, famines, floods, good harvests, bad harvests, eternal life.

Heck, some people still believe in fairies and goblins and leprechauns and pots of gold at the end of rainbows. So childishly silly.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I wasn't aware that JWs had such a teaching. I wonder why for all these years being a JW they never saw the need to teach me... or perhaps i attended meetings, and spent my time thinking about the food I was going to eat when I got back home, and I didn't bother to read any of their literature. Hmmm.
No. That's not what JWs teach. However, they do teach all to use their power of reason, so that they are not swayed by every wind of teaching, and philosophy of men.
Romans 12:1, 2
1 Therefore, I appeal to you by the compassions of God, brothers, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, a sacred service with your power of reason. 2 And stop being molded by this system of things, but be transformed by making your mind over, so that you may prove to yourselves the good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

Ephesians 4:14
So we should no longer be children, tossed about as by waves and carried here and there by every wind of teaching by means of the trickery of men, by means of cunning in deceptive schemes.

So from young to old, all are taught to think and reason.
What I find interesting is that you single out a small minority in the earth, when billions - actually billions of people do not believe in the ToE - including Atheists, and Agnostics, some of whom came to accept that the evidence is actually against the ToE, not for... and it is both sensible and reasonable to accept that the diversity of life is a product of special creation of diverse living things.
Do you have anything to say about these billions of people?

Have you given though as to how or why it is youth can stand in front of a class, not because someone holds a gun to their head, but on their own volition, and explain why the ToE is nonsense?

On the topic of nonsensical, for one to believe in evolution, they need more faith than the millions of believers combined and multiplied by 100 trillion, trillion... if that's possible.

To believe that information in cells having multiple random copying errors, and natural processes resulted in, as an example, an eye - fully equip with adjustable lens, a light-sensitive mechanism, a light-focusing mechanism, a focal point, and focuser, etc.
Furthermore, these unguided processes produced glands to clean and care for the eye.
Then these unguided processes created a lid in just the right place, to perfectly cover the eye, and aid in cleaning and protecting it.
Then, the cherry on top, or the icing on the cake - eye lashes... an added eye protection - "Keep as much dust out as possible" - in just the right place!.

Wow. Talk about planning.
Either that or natural selection is the greatest miracle worker ever.
This is what many see as nonsensical

To believe that natural unguided processes produce such purposeful design, is to deny a creator. I think it's sad that theistic evolutionist and those claiming belief in a creator, are blind to that fact.

How is it God-guided, but yet unguided? Is God's hand natural selection - which ToE believers say is unguided?
Sound more like a compromise to me, or a "limping on two opinions". 1 Kings 18:21

I was not aware that JWs use a "litmus test" You seem to know a lot about what does not go on in the JWs organization.

Oops it's another Gish Gallop. And this one is filled with long-ago debunked creationist canards and unsubstantiated God-claims. Oh joy.

 

[ecco]

Yes but it helps to see them playing. When only one team is on the field, its not much of a game really, and who cares about the winner if there are no others allowed on the field?

Everyone is allowed to play. All people can field teams. In regards to this discussion, one team is made up of people who get undergraduate, masters and doctorate level education. These people spend years doing research. These people publish papers showing their theories, experiments, and findings. These published papers are reviewed by people with similar educational backgrounds.

The other team is mostly people with very strong religious beliefs and no training in the subject fields.

To further your sports analogy, it's like professional football players vs eight-year-old Pop Warner Mitey-Mites.

Remember, this is your analogy. Do you really believe that eight-year-olds are qualified to play on professional teams?

Like David and Goliath perhaps? At least Goliath allowed David the opportunity to take him on.
And that is the very reason why science takes the high ground....it sees itself as Goliath....we see ourselves as David.

Science (the Goliath in your analogy) allows everyone to take them on. That's why there multiple sides to all scientific beliefs. That's why we found the universe was expanding. That's how we found quarks. That's how science continues to refine the details of ToE.

But continuing your analogy, at least David had some fighting skills. People like you arguing against ToE is not like David taking on Goliath. It is like an eight-year-old child taking on an army of trained soldiers.

I would suggest that, if you really wanted to try to make some serious arguments against ToE, you would get educated in the basics of biology. But you won't. It's always much easier to argue from ignorance.

Let's see who wins.

We see who is winning.
People no longer believe the earth is the center of the universe.
People no longer believe the earth is flat with four corners.
Far fewer people believe Genesis than did 200 years ago.

 

[ecco]

No matter how educated we are, the simple truth is all we need.

I think you mean to say: Just like our ignorant, uneducated forebearers, an overly simplistic story is all we need.

 

[ecco]

But the "science"of evolution is taught in school to children who have no way to argue against it. They are taught as if it was fact, so by the time they reach university level, there is no other way to explain the world apart from evolution.

Long before they ever hear about science in school, they have the concept of a real-old-man-in-the-sky-who-made-everything drilled into their malleable little brains. This is especially if they are born into strict religious cults like JW.

But you know that, don't you?

They are left with the conclusion that religion is just for uneducated fanatics who don't know the facts....right?

Wrong. Millions of people graduate from colleges and universities every year still believing in a god.

Don't you know that?

They are never taught that facts in evolutionary science are largely based on suggestion by assuming things about the processes that they created in their imagination.

They are never taught that "evolutionary science {is} largely based on suggestion" because that is not true. It is based on the findings of tens of thousands of people in multiple different fields of specialization.

But you know that, don't you?

Every piece of evidence had to be squeezed into one box. A box that doesn't have room for an Intelligent Designer.

RE: JW Beliefs

Every piece of knowledge has to be squeezed into one box. A box that doesn't have room for education outside of JW.

But you know that, don't you?

 

[ecco]

ecco:
I think "poofed" summarizes "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" rather well. Do you have a better word?

Yes..."created".

Its what artists do when they have the right materials. Its what engineers do when creating a piece of machinery designed for a specific purpose. Its what carpenters do when they build a house. No "poofing" required.

But God didn't need any materials. No steel, no lumber, no welding. So, yeah "poofed".

They have an idea that turns into a plan, and the plan is executed by someone with the intelligence to guide and direct the process.

In your case it's all one and the same entity. The entity who took all of eternity to figure out what to do and how to do it and then just a quick six days to execute his plan. And what was that plan? Create Adam & Eve so that they would disobey and then blame A&E for their "SIN".

It is science that imagines a "poofing"....that is how life just popped in to existence with no cause, no purpose, and no direction to follow.

For cause and purpose, see above.

 

[ecco]

Do quarks prove evolution? Does understanding the make up of atoms confirm your theory in any way?

That you raise this question in response to my analogy shows that your education is lacking is common language usage as well as science.

Has science learned things in the last eighty years? We certainly hope so. But it hasn't been able to confirm that macroevolution ever happened.

Wrong again. What you mean is that no one has "proven" it to you. Well, we know that won't ever happen. No one can believe two diametrically opposed views. You believe in some science only up to the point where it conflicts with your religious beliefs. Thereafter, you shut and lock the door. That's understandable.

I believe that there is a reason for that......like finding a natural cause for the spontaneous production of life.....there isn't one.

You refuse to understand ToE (see above). No one would expect you to want to understand abiogenesis.

 

[ecco]

ecco:
Do JWs really believe mainstream Protestants are true Christians?

We do not believe that any of Christendom's churches teach the truth of the Bible.

Likewise, the vast majority of "Christendom's churches" do not believe JWs teach the truth of the Bible.



All together now...
My god is better than your god
My god is better than yours
Bhum, bhum, bhum
My god is better than your god
My god is better than yours
Bhum, bhummmm

 

[ecco]

Yeah, yeah, we know about this indolent god, who takes every opportunity to imitate a nonexistent god.

That's beautifully poetic.

 

[ecco]

.

So from young to old, all are taught to think and reason.

Perhaps you can show some writings from JW that you are taught to think and reason

What I find interesting is that you single out a small minority in the earth, when billions - actually billions of people do not believe in the ToE -

What's your point? Billions of people believe Christianity is a false religion. Many more billions of people believe JW is a dangerous cult.

including Atheists, and Agnostics, some of whom came to accept that the evidence is actually against the ToE, not for... and it is both sensible and reasonable to accept that the diversity of life is a product of special creation of diverse living things.

What atheists and agnostics? Are you referring to a few "atheists" who got sucked into belief in god? Can you name more than a handful?

Most people who believe in ToE also believe in a god, so what's your point?


ETA:
I just saw your post:

Anthony Flew was an atheist practically all his life, and there are thousands like him, who rejected the ToE,

Anthony Flew is not an atheist who disbelieves ToE. Anthony Flew is an ex-atheist who disbelieves ToE. Now, please name some of the other "thousands like him, who rejected the ToE".

 

[ecco]

I am actually wondering about you, and really hope you are okay, but I know our choices in life do matter - a lot.
I will ask a staff member to verify that I am not hallucinating.

While you're at it, ask about the ethics of posting condescending remarks and proselytizing.

 

[ecco]

He has the power to restore what he created in the first place. I have faith that he will carry out all that he said he will.

Yes indeedy! Just like he did 4000 years ago. One more good flood to wipe the slate clean. Are you guys building an ark to hold 144,000 souls?

 

[Deeje]

If you've heard it "umpteen times" did it ever occur to you that maybe there might be something to it? Especially when multiple people are mentioning it?

If all the people who keep telling me something "umteen times" are all in the same choir, all have the same lyrics and all have the same "song book" , then I'm going to take it as if only one person said it. The various voices in the choir don't make the song different.....do they?

Call me crazy but if people kept correcting me on something that I kept repeating, I'd take the time to exercise a little introspection and investigate as to why people are telling me this. But I'm one of those people who doesn't want to believe and repeat false things; and maybe you're not.

Funny, but we keep correcting you when you tell us that evolution is a fact. Its not a fact that is substantiated by anything other than assumption and lots of suggestions. That is the only fact that matters in macro-evolution. You use something minor, like adaptation, to "prove" something major like 'amoebas to dinosaurs'.....as if a suggestion beyond any scientific testing, is proof enough.....It is no such thing.

If I keep hearing solo voices out of the same choir, I'm going to respond just like you. You have nothing new to tell me...I have nothing new to tell you. If we have each made our choice, then you are welcome to yours...I'm keeping mine. OK?

We see post, after post, after post from a certain someone who seems desperate to make sure that no one has an opportunity to gain anything from the inconvenient truth (I will leave all those acts of desperation to speak for themselves)
Iits all out there and people will make up their own minds. Propaganda works only when you don't know the truth. Once you see it for what it is, (rather than what you imagine it to be)....then that is where the confidence comes from....right?

If you are all so confident in what you accept as truth, then all the best with that. Time will tell I guess. But what do you have to look forward to?
If evolution is as certain as you think it is, then why the great need to defend it so vigorously? What does it matter to you if there is a Creator or not? Is it because of what you fear if you are wrong about all those assumptions you are relying on? Is there safety in numbers perhaps making you feel that confidence because so many of the 'wise and intellectual' are on your side? (Matthew 11:25) Its a baited trap IMO.....set by a professional 'hunter'. You've been convinced that he is like God...a figment of people's imagination.....but the evidence of his existence is very real in a world that he commands. (1 John 5:19)

If I have given even one person food for thought and a reason to doubt the so-called "overwhelming" evidence that science will never be able to prove, then I am happy with that.

 

[nPeace]

Oops it's another Gish Gallop. And this one is filled with long-ago debunked creationist canards and unsubstantiated God-claims. Oh joy.

You remind me of someone.

 

[SkepticThinker]

If all the people who keep telling me something "umteen times" are all in the same choir, all have the same lyrics and all have the same "song book" , then I'm going to take it as if only one person said it. The various voices in the choir don't make the song different.....do they?

Except that they are not all "in the same choir." The people correcting you come from all different religions, including those lacking a religion.

I guess that's a great way to avoid any deep thought or introspection though. Just claim everyone is against you, and then you don't have to worry about it, I guess. Seems like a strange way to go through life to me. But like I said, I guess you're not as interested in accepting true things and discarding false things, as some others are. You believe what you want to believe.

Funny, but we keep correcting you when you tell us that evolution is a fact. Its not a fact that is substantiated by anything other than assumption and lots of suggestions. That is the only fact that matters in macro-evolution. You use something minor, like adaptation, to "prove" something major like 'amoebas to dinosaurs'.....as if a suggestion beyond any scientific testing, is proof enough.....It is no such thing.

You are incorrect in that assertion, as science has long since demonstrated. You also make it obvious, every time you post on the subject, that you don’t seem to know what evolution is, or how it works.

Evolution is a demonstrable, observable fact. Allele frequencies in populations change over time. In the same way that gravity is a demonstrable fact. When you say it isn’t, you are denying reality. Allele frequencies change over time; organisms change over time. Those are demonstrable facts. Adaptation, as you describe it, is evolution. Again, when you make these claims, you demonstrate that you do not understand evolution.

But again, you’re always welcome to challenge evolution to actual scientists who study it anytime you want. Just get something down on paper and submit it to a journal for review. This should be extremely easy to do, if the evidence is as flimsy as you say.

Don’t you ever wonder why someone from your camp hasn’t managed to do that yet, in all this time? That should tell you something that I’m sure you’ll simply ignore.

If I keep hearing solo voices out of the same choir, I'm going to respond just like you. You have nothing new to tell me...I have nothing new to tell you. If we have each made our choice, then you are welcome to yours...I'm keeping mine. OK?

We see post, after post, after post from a certain someone who seems desperate to make sure that no one has an opportunity to gain anything from the inconvenient truth (I will leave all those acts of desperation to speak for themselves)

Iits all out there and people will make up their own minds. Propaganda works only when you don't know the truth. Once you see it for what it is, (rather than what you imagine it to be)....then that is where the confidence comes from....right?

Please, enough with this lame argumentation. You are the one who has been taken in by propaganda. And worse yet, you’re dead set against a science that you don’t even understand in the first place, simply because you believe it interferes with your religious beliefs. Which speaks to a claim I’ve made that those who don’t accept evolution are those who don’t understand it. You’ve demonstrated that very well.

If you are all so confident in what you accept as truth, then all the best with that. Time will tell I guess. But what do you have to look forward to?

We can demonstrate our claims. You can’t. I think that says it all.

I have plenty to look forward to. I have a much more positive and optimistic view of life than you apparently do. Stop trying to drag others down into despair along with you.

If evolution is as certain as you think it is, then why the great need to defend it so vigorously?

Well, let’s see … because we’re gathered together in a place to debate such topics, and we have people who don’t even understand it trying to argue against it.

What does it matter to you if there is a Creator or not? Is it because of what you fear if you are wrong about all those assumptions you are relying on?

It doesn’t actually matter. I have yet to see any actual evidence for any creator, so I’ll continue to carry on my life as though there isn’t one.

I don’t know what assumptions you think I’m relying on. Your main assumption though, is that there is some creator god – one that you can’t demonstrate the existence of. Are you just projecting your issues onto me?

Is there safety in numbers perhaps making you feel that confidence because so many of the 'wise and intellectual' are on your side? (Matthew 11:25) Its a baited trap IMO.....set by a professional 'hunter'. You've been convinced that he is like God...a figment of people's imagination.....but the evidence of his existence is very real in a world that he commands. (1 John 5:19)

I have no idea what you’re talking about, or where you’ve come up with those strange ideas, but quoting Bible verses at me is about the same thing as giving me Harry Potter quotations.

Evolution is demonstrably, observably true. You have yet to demonstrate the existence of any creator to anyone other than yourself. I see a rather big difference between those two things.

If I have given even one person food for thought and a reason to doubt the so-called "overwhelming" evidence that science will never be able to prove, then I am happy with that.

Evolution is the only scientific theory that adequately accounts for all the available evidence, and explains the diversity of life on Earth.

 

[ecco]

evolution is ... not a fact that is substantiated by anything other than assumption and lots of suggestions.

When you make posts like that all you are doing is showing your willful ignorance of science.

 

[ecco]

But what do you have to look forward to?

In the long term, exactly the same thing you have to forward to, death -period-.

In the time between now and then, we can enjoy the mysteries of nature. Nature, with all its intricacies, is far more awesome than a magical man in the sky who can poof things into and out of existence at his whim.