The movement of the earth in Qur'an

[FearGod]

So you agree that site is stupid, but you still linked to it to support your 'argument'?

Back to the main point though, have you grasped yet that Islamic philosophy is still philosophy even if it pretends that it isn't?

No i don't believe Islam is a philosophy, philosophy is a man made and Islam is a message sent by God, it isn't similar to Buddhism or Taoism.

 

[gnostic]

No i don't believe Islam is a philosophy, philosophy is a man made and Islam is a message sent by God, it isn't similar to Buddhism or Taoism.

Islam is man-made, as is the Qur'an.

The Qur'an however doesn't show that the author had any intelligence beyond that of former shepherd and former merchant.

If Allah was the true author, then we we have a God who isn't really intelligent at all, because a god wouldn't write something so obvious as the Qur'an. The book is so disjointed, the verses often jump from subject to subject that are often unrelated to each other. There is no unity of thoughts.

The description of the creation (of heaven, of earth or of life) is scattered throughout the Qur'an, in single or two verses. The author whether he be Muhammad or Allah can't seem to focus on one subject for very long. It is like the author is suffering from ADHD (Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder).

And the verses that you and other Muslims claimed to be "scieniftic" sign or "scientific" miracles are often vague verses, which you have all twisted to mean something else, so that it would align with modern science. The integrity of some Muslims are no higher than from literal Christian creationists, when it come to distorting both religion and science, to suit your fanatical agendas.

I have no respect for Muslims who used these sort of tactics, because it is dishonest, and tarnish their holy religion with their dishonest interpretation, just as Muslim terrorists have done with Islam. You have both twisted religion that you have professed to be "holy".

 

[mojtaba]

Sorry, but the Genesis 1:6-8 (bible) also have separation of heaven and earth on the 2nd day of creation, so the Qur'an (21:30) provide nothing new, unique or insightful.

Please compare Qur'an and bible, I couldn't find any same concept between Genesis 1:6-8 (bible) and 21:30(Qur'an):
21:30(Qur'an):
"Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, and We separated them and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe?"
This verse says that heavens and the earth were a single thing and then are seprated from each other. Then all living things have been created from water. I can not find these concepts in Genesis 1:6-8.

Genesis 1:6-8 (bible)
6 And God said: 'Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.'
7.And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.

But the separation of heaven and earth, in which heaven is nothing more than the visible sky. Heaven in the Qur'an has nothing to do with the universe. Other names for heaven or sky, are firmament, dome, expanse. The expanse or sky/heaven have nothing to do with the Big Bang or the expanding universe.

Separation of heavens and eart, not heaven and earth.
There are verses in the Noble Qur'an that mention sky. But heavens are different from sky.

Genesis also say everything come from water, in Genesis 1:2. Again nothing new.

Genesis say everything come from water(I can not find this in Genesis 1:2). But Qur'an says all living things are from water.

And beside the passages from Genesis, there are other polytheistic religions earlier than Genesis as well as the pitiful Qur'an, which separate heaven and earth, can be found in Egyptian and Sumerian-Babylonian sources, which had clearly influenced all Abrahamic religions, including Islam.

Islam is only perpetuating the same myths as the Egyptian and Babylonian myths, indirectly from Jewish and Christian texts, but clearly you are too ignorant to know the historical sources of your own religion. Muslims are blinded by their own religion to see the truth the origin of their own religion.

You can think we are blind.
25:5, 6 "And they say, "(Qur'an is) Myths of the former peoples which he has written down, and they are dictated to him morning and afternoon."«5»Say, [O Muhammad], "It has been revealed by He who knows [every] secret within the heavens and the earth. Indeed, He is ever Forgiving and Merciful.«6»"

 

[Shad]

Please compare Qur'an and bible, I couldn't find any same concept between Genesis 1:6-8 (bible) and 21:30(Qur'an):
21:30(Qur'an):
"Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, and We separated them and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe?"
This verse says that heavens and the earth were a single thing and then are seprated from each other. Then all living things have been created from water. I can not find these concepts in Genesis 1:6-8.

Genesis 1:6-8 (bible)
6 And God said: 'Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.'
7.And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.

Separation of heavens and eart, not heaven and earth.
There are verses in the Noble Qur'an that mention sky. But heavens are different from sky.

So what? The Bible does not have heavens, plural, the Quran does. If heavens means universe the Bible is more accurate as it has one heaven, 1 universe, not 7 heavens, 7 universes. Besides both verses are wrong and do not match the Big Bang theory.

25:5, 6 "And they say, "(Qur'an is) Myths of the former peoples which he has written down, and they are dictated to him morning and afternoon."«5»Say, [O Muhammad], "It has been revealed by He who knows [every] secret within the heavens and the earth. Indeed, He is ever Forgiving and Merciful.«6»"

Which is 100% true. It seems like this verse was an ad hoc defense for exactly what we have pointed out. plagiarism

 

[mojtaba]

So what? The Bible does not have heavens, plural, the Quran does. If heavens means universe the Bible is more accurate as it has one heaven, 1 universe, not 7 heavens, 7 universes. Besides both verses are wrong and do not match the Big Bang theory.

Maybe other universes are Dark matter.

Which is 100% true. It seems like this verse was an ad hoc defense for exactly what we have pointed out. plagiarism

Yes. This is 100% true that: Say, [O Muhammad], "It has been revealed by He who knows [every] secret within the heavens and the earth".

 

[Shad]

Maybe other universes are Dark matter.

When you can demonstrate "other" universe you can make this claim, otherwise it is speculation nothing more

Yes. This is 100% true that: Say, [O Muhammad], "It has been revealed by He who knows [every] secret within the heavens and the earth".

No my point is the beginning of the verse which clearly states the Quran is just former myths repeated. Which is accurate for much of it. Like I said it seems like an ad hoc defense. Someone probably figured out Mo was just plagiarizing and called his con. It order to deflect this criticism he manufactures a verse in defense. As if the verse had any meaning to those that already figured out his plagiarism

 

[FearGod]

Islam is man-made, as is the Qur'an.

The Qur'an however doesn't show that the author had any intelligence beyond that of former shepherd and former merchant.

If Allah was the true author, then we we have a God who isn't really intelligent at all, because a god wouldn't write something so obvious as the Qur'an. The book is so disjointed, the verses often jump from subject to subject that are often unrelated to each other. There is no unity of thoughts.

The description of the creation (of heaven, of earth or of life) is scattered throughout the Qur'an, in single or two verses. The author whether he be Muhammad or Allah can't seem to focus on one subject for very long. It is like the author is suffering from ADHD (Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder).

And the verses that you and other Muslims claimed to be "scieniftic" sign or "scientific" miracles are often vague verses, which you have all twisted to mean something else, so that it would align with modern science. The integrity of some Muslims are no higher than from literal Christian creationists, when it come to distorting both religion and science, to suit your fanatical agendas.

I have no respect for Muslims who used these sort of tactics, because it is dishonest, and tarnish their holy religion with their dishonest interpretation, just as Muslim terrorists have done with Islam. You have both twisted religion that you have professed to be "holy".

In few words, that was an utterly stupid bla...bla....bla

 

[FearGod]

Please compare Qur'an and bible, I couldn't find any same concept between Genesis 1:6-8 (bible) and 21:30(Qur'an):
21:30(Qur'an):
"Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, and We separated them and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe?"
This verse says that heavens and the earth were a single thing and then are seprated from each other. Then all living things have been created from water. I can not find these concepts in Genesis 1:6-8.

The prophet was lucky, he said that earth and the universe were one part before being separated, yes it can be twisted to give the same explanation of modern science and it can be a stroke of luck.

 

[Augustus]

No i don't believe Islam is a philosophy, philosophy is a man made and Islam is a message sent by God, it isn't similar to Buddhism or Taoism.

The divine authorship of the Quran is irrelevant, by definition Muslim philosophers are Muslims who believe that to be true.

Interpretation of religious texts, discussions on the nature of God, formulation of Sharia laws, arguments regarding itjihad, tradition verses reason, the veracity of hadiths, abrogation, different madhabs etc. etc. are all reliant on philosophy.

Without philosophy you have the words in the Quran, with philosophy you have the religion of Islam that exists throughout the world. If you understand what philosophy is, you don't need to try to deny it. It isn't an insult or a criticism. If I were a Muslim I would be proud of the the rich history of Islamic philosophy, I'm surprised you are not.

What you don't like are 'worldly' philosophers who discuss knowledge and being without recourse to God. Saying you don't like philosophy because you don't like certain types of philosopher is like saying you don't like food because the eggs you tried once weren't tasty.

 

[FearGod]

The divine authorship of the Quran is irrelevant, by definition Muslim philosophers are Muslims who believe that to be true.

Interpretation of religious texts, discussions on the nature of God, formulation of Sharia laws, arguments regarding itjihad, tradition verses reason, the veracity of hadiths, abrogation, different madhabs etc. etc. are all reliant on philosophy.

Without philosophy you have the words in the Quran, with philosophy you have the religion of Islam that exists throughout the world. If you understand what philosophy is, you don't need to try to deny it. It isn't an insult or a criticism. If I were a Muslim I would be proud of the the rich history of Islamic philosophy, I'm surprised you are not.

What you don't like are 'worldly' philosophers who discuss knowledge and being without recourse to God. Saying you don't like philosophy because you don't like certain types of philosopher is like saying you don't like food because the eggs you tried once weren't tasty.

I don't follow any Madhab , i don't trust many clerics and i believe that many verses in the quran were misinterpreted, i ain't doing that because i'm a philosopher but because i do accept what makes sense to me, i do study the quran myself and i try to understand it myself and i use references which only contain solid facts and not philosophy.

 

[FearGod]

Lots of civilizations (both before and after the *Abbasid Caliphate/Ottoman Empire*) contributed to medicine. The reason for the "Golden Age of Islam" was because of empire: military/economic/cultural power.
That's what empires do: they consolidate power, amass resources, produce strong economies, expand education and as a result they end up contributing to the technological achievements of their time.

What you don't get medical technology from is via illiterate cave-dwellers apparently being visited by angels and commanded via a deity - that's just mythology.
No one would attribute the Greek's achievements to the likes of Zeus, would they?

* = Edited text, reason: addition of "Abbasid Caliphate".

But what you call him as an illiterate cave dweller is the one who established the great Islamic empire, your opinion is different than those who studied his biography.

 

[FearGod]

So you agree that site is stupid, but you still linked to it to support your 'argument'?

Back to the main point though, have you grasped yet that Islamic philosophy is still philosophy even if it pretends that it isn't?

Do i have to agree on everything that written in one site ?

 

[mojtaba]

When you can demonstrate "other" universe you can make this claim, otherwise it is speculation nothing more

41:12 ؛Then He made them seven heavens in two spans of time and revealed to each heaven its law. And We adorned the lower heaven with stars, and firmly secured it. All this is the firm plan of the All-Mighty, the All-Knowing.

this verse says that all stars are in the lower heaven and are not in the other heavens. So All stars are in the first heaven and consequently, maybe we can say that other heavens are not in our view. So maybe they are dark matter which we can not see it.

No my point is the beginning of the verse which clearly states the Qur'an is just former myths repeated. Which is accurate for much of it. Like I said it seems like an ad hoc defense. Someone probably figured out Mo was just plagiarizing and called his con. It order to deflect this criticism he manufactures a verse in defense. As if the verse had any meaning to those that already figured out his plagiarism

And God replied them that these aren't former myths repeated but, rather, are secrets within the heavens and the earth from Who knows these secrets.
"It has been revealed by He who knows [every] secret within the heavens and the earth"

 

[Shad]

41:12 ؛Then He made them seven heavens in two spans of time and revealed to each heaven its law. And We adorned the lower heaven with stars, and firmly secured it. All this is the firm plan of the All-Mighty, the All-Knowing.

this verse says that all stars are in the lower heaven and are not in the other heavens. So All stars are in the first heaven and consequently, maybe we can say that other heavens are not in our view. So maybe they are dark matter which we can not see it.


And God replied them that these aren't former myths repeated but, rather, are secrets within the heavens and the earth from Who knows these secrets.
"It has been revealed by He who knows [every] secret within the heavens and the earth"

So what? Every religion thought the Stars were in Heaven. The Quran is saying nothing new, nothing that has not been around for centuries before it. The other verse is an ad hoc defense as people knew Mo was repeating myths and legends. Heck he didn't even know what the Trinity was. All he did was repeat the little he knew, nothing more

 

[Shad]

But what you call him as an illiterate cave dweller is the one who established the great Islamic empire, your opinion is different than those who studied his biography.

The Empire was established after his death thus he can not be given credit for it.

 

[Shad]

I don't follow any Madhab , i don't trust many clerics and i believe that many verses in the quran were misinterpreted, i ain't doing that because i'm a philosopher but because i do accept what makes sense to me, i do study the quran myself and i try to understand it myself and i use references which only contain solid facts and not philosophy.

Given your incompetence and the repeated failures of common sense in history there is nothing to say your views are right. Since you dismiss logic and philosophy you have no basis to even make your claim.

 

[FearGod]

The Empire was established after his death thus he can not be given credit for it.

As usual a stupid comment.

 

[Shad]

As usual a stupid comment.

No historical fact. Persian and Byzantium territory was conquered after his death, thus he never formed it. Look up the dates of the conquest and the date of Mo's death. Seems like you do not even know Islamic history. The first invasion which built the Islamic empire didn't happen until a year after his death.

It is also a fallacy, Argument ad lapidem. You never addressed any point, you just declared it stupid without providing one piece of evidence why it is. Hilarious that you are reduced to rebuttals that a child can make.

 

[Shad]

The prophet was lucky, he said that earth and the universe were one part before being separated, yes it can be twisted to give the same explanation of modern science and it can be a stroke of luck.

Good to see you admit to post hoc rationalization thus you point is fallacious. You should of become a comedian.

 

[FearGod]

No historical fact. Persian and Byzantium territory was conquered after his death, thus he never formed it. Look up the dates of the conquest and the date of Mo's death. Seems like you do not even know Islamic history. The first invasion which built the Islamic empire didn't happen until a year after his death.

It is also a fallacy, Argument ad lapidem. You never addressed any point, you just declared it stupid without providing one piece of evidence why it is. Hilarious that you are reduced to rebuttals that a child can make.

It's still stupid and bla..bla...bla as you used to do.