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The Myth of The Jesus Myth

Oberon

Well-Known Member
Several other threads have dealt with whether or not Jesus was a historical person. This thread takes a different yet similar tack, and examines the logic, reasoning, and errors behind the various presentations of “Jesus as a dying and resurrecting godman myth.” I will be using Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy's book "The Jesus Mysteries" as an exemplar, but similar works have similar issues.


To quote Keith Windshuttle from his book on the discipline of history: “The study of history is essentially a search for the truth… A work that does not aim at truth may be many things but not a work of history” (185). Additionally, “…[H]istorians study their subject by means of a disciplined methodology. This involves adoptiong practices and standards that are commonly recognized throughout the discipline, especially in their handling of the evidence that goes to make up their explanations” (218).

Keeping the above statements in mind, it seems appropriate to begin a critique of “The Jesus Mysteries” with some issues of general methodologies adopted by the authors. From their I will move on to general errors, and finally I will consider specifically their case for Jesus as no more than myth. I intend to keep my criticisms more broad, rather than focus on single error by single error. So instead of going through the book and pointing out errors like that on page 32 (where the authors state that “the word usually translated as “stable” in the gospels is katalemna.” Actually, the work in Luke is phatne, and the word katalemna is not anywhere to be found.)

1. Cherry-picking lines in order to indicate similarities

There is nothing wrong with comparing lines contained in one text with those in another in order to show the dependence of the second on the first. Even if the second text does not overtly mention the first, numerous similarities, particular wording (such as a change in the typical usage of vocabulary or syntax in the second text which coheres with the first), and other arguments may be made in order to demonstrate dependence. The more plausible a connection between the two texts is (such as between Matthew and Luke, two texts from a similar tradition, similar date, similar language, and similar geographic region), the less evidence need be marshaled if one seeks to show (at the least) knowledge of the first text by the author of the second text.

If it were this type of comparisons the Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy engaged in, one could hardly criticize their methodology. However, it is not. The authors feel free to rip numerous SINGLE lines from multiple texts, produced by multiple authors, cultures, and at varying times, with the over all NT. They make no effort, beyond the similarity between this or that line in one text and a line from the gospels, to demonstrate knowledge of or dependence on the text by any gospel authors. This would be bad enough, but what makes it worse is the vast corpus of literature from which the Freke and Gandy draw. By broadening the literary base on which to make comparisons, it is easy enough to show similarities between any work and the literary base on uses. For example, I could just as easily show that the gospel authors made use of Buddhist literature, as long as I can rip single quotes from numerous works and separate them from their contexts, as Freke and Gandy do.

2. Misrepresentation of Sources and Academic Dishonesty


The authors present their work as if they started out attempting to research early Christianity and Jesus, and ended up with their so-called “Jesus Mysteries Thesis” after their search through primary and secondary sources. The way they present themselves, they are mere historical “detectives,” stumbling upon a history long covered up. As they say, “When it first occurred to us, it seemed absurd and impossible” (12), and only after thorough research were they “convinced.” Yet an examination of their sources, as well as their presentation of sources, reveals some surprises.

The first of these concerns secondary sources, i.e. modern scholarship on the periods, texts, persons, etc, in question. If the authors, themselves far from academics or specialists in any of the relevant fields, did indeed begin their search with open minds and researched honestly as they said, one would expect to find in their books scholarship representative of the scholarly consensus or at the very least many of most well-respected scholarly works in the relevant areas. Yet instead we find many of their secondary sources are out of print, many were not written by academics at all, and those that do represent relevant scholarship by scholars are misrepresented. For example, the authors quote Rudolf Bultmann (who, although somewhat dated, was at least one of the foremost NT scholars at one time) as stating: “I do indeed think that we can now know almost nothing concerning the life and personality of Jesus, since the early Christian sources show no interest in either and are, moreover, fragmentary and often legendary.” Bultmann did indeed say this, but is important (if one is an honest scholar) to note the context in which he said it. He was not arguing against a historical Jesus, but against the “liberal” presentations of Jesus which sought to understand his innermost psychological motives. Bultmann states only a few pages later that “Little as we know of his life and personality, we know enough of his message to make for ourselves a consistent picture.”
Even if Freke and Gandy had only their skewed representations of secondary sources to rely on, they could not form the picture they did, without misrepresenting their sources.

As far as primary sources go, the errors with these will be discussed in other areas.

3) Inattention to dates/times

This one is similar to the first methodological error, but I think it deserves a section on its own. This is particularly because one criticism leveled at the gospels and early Christians was that they not only stole ideas and concepts from paganism, they then claimed that THEY had possessed these ideas first. The authors then ridicule this claim that pagan texts could have stolen ideas from Christian texts which they predated.

The authors then make this very mistake. They take quotes from sources that date AFTER the NT, in order to demonstrate how the texts are similar (and how the Christians are dependent upon them). Not only this, they use mythic figures (like the Hellenistic Mithras) which were not around until after the gospels, and point to the similarities between these figures and Jesus. In other words, they are guilty of the same error for which they castigate the early Christian authors.

4) The skepticism applied to Jesus and sources for the historical Jesus is not applied to other texts or other figures

On page 17, Freke and Gandy write, “The great Pagan philosophers were the enlightened masters of the Mysteries. Although they are often portrayed as dry academic intellectuals, they were actually enigmatic gurus. Empedocles, like his master Pythagoras, was a charismatic miracle-worker. Socrates was an eccentric mystic prone to being suddenly overcome by states of rapture during which his friends would discover him staring off into space for hours. Heraclitus was asked by the citizens of Ephesus to become a lawmaker, but turned the offer down so that he could continue playing with the children of the Temple. Anaxagoras shocked ordinary citizens by completely abandoning his farm to fully devote his life to “the higher philosophy.” Diogenes owned nothing and lived in a jar at the entrance of a temple. The playwright Euripides wrote his greatest tragedies during solitary retreats in an isolated cave.”

So much said with such conviction concerning so many. But what evidence is there to back up these statements? What historical record was left behind which could withstand the Freke and Gandy’s extreme skepticism? First, the stories of Empedocles and his miracle-workings are from Diogenes Laertius’ “Lives,” which are over two centuries removed from Empedocles. The information concerning Socrates comes from three people who would have known him (Plato, Xenophon, and Aristophanes) yet all three versions are dramatically different and inconsistent. Were we as critical of these texts as of the NT, we would have to admit that Socrates was merely a myth. The story about Heraclitus is also from Diogenes, only now only further removed from his life. The information about Euripides is likewise far removed from the historical person, of whom little is known. And so on.

Freke and Gandy repeat these myths and rumors, which have far more time lapsed between them than Jesus and the gospels, and are far more inconsistent, as if they were fact and history. Yet if they are the honest historical detectives they pretend to be, why not apply the same skepticism here as well, instead of embarrassing credulity?
 

Oberon

Well-Known Member
General Issues

From general methodological problems employed by the authors, I will move to general misconceptions the authors have of the issues they discuss.

1) Paganism-

This general issue goes along with their first and third methodological issues. The authors discuss paganism as a sort of unified whole (i.e. a unified religious/philosophical system) from which Christians stole. They have to do this, because otherwise it would be all too clear that they are taking bits and pieces from an incredibly diverse basis and making comparisons.

Paganism was not a unified system, nor did it remain stagnant over the centuries, and there are (at least) two central issues with presenting paganism in this way. The first is that it minimizes the differences between the various parts of a vastly diverse “thing” called paganism and Christianity (i.e. to say that Attis has something to do with a tree, and Jesus died on a cross, minimizes vast gulf between the Attis myth and Jesus by only comparing that one aspect of the Attis myth, and using other aspects of DIFFERENT myths to bolster the comparisons). The second is that it makes it seem easy to imagine that the early Christian authors, living as they did under Hellenic supremacy, would have understood paganism in the way Freke and Gandy make it appear, and would even have had access to this vast variety of texts and practices in order to steal from them.


The general historical misconception of a unified paganism may be broken down into a few subcategories-

a) Cross-cultural unity.

For the most part, the authors limit themselves to discussions of myths and philosophies from Greece and Rome. However, they do also compare Jesus and early Christianity to the pagan beliefs of other cultures (for example, Egypt). The problem is that these cultures did have the same beliefs, religions, philosophies, etc. Although many practices, customs, beliefs, etc may have been transmitted from one culture to another, this unity would have to be demonstrated before aspects of various cultures are presented as a unified whole, and then compared to Jesus and early Christianity. The authors do not do this. They feel free to rip a quote from a text from one culture, a belief from another, and a piece of myth from a third, and compare all three to the gospels as if they were a unified system.

b) Unity across cults

Even within a single culture, various cults existed side-by-side one another and yet were quite different. Members may have been initiated into more than one cult, and almost always worshipped more than one god, but to take one aspect from one myth, and another from a second myth, even within one culture, is to unify what the cult members didn’t. To further assume that the early Christian or NT authors unified these myths/cults, when even the practitioners (who may have practiced within two or more), is an even more grievous error.

c) Unity across type

Not only do Freke and Gandy combine disparate myths/cults so that they can compare aspects of all of them (as a unified whole) with Jesus and early Christianity, they also make the mistake of combining pagan philosophy with cultic practice or with myth. Pagan philosophical works existed alongside of, and separate from, cultic/religious practices. To take a quote from one philosophical text, and combine it with a part of a myth, to bolster the similarities between paganism and Christianity, is to misrepresent the nature of pagan philosophy.

d) Unity across time

The same culture, and even the same cult, may change greatly over time. For example, the Persian Mithras contained none of the similarities with Christianity that the authors discuss. It was not until this myth was present in a Hellenized version, after the first century, that these similarities were present. To take quotes from various sources across time and make them represent a unified paganism is a serious error. This is particularly true when certain aspects being compared would not have been available to the gospel authors (either because they were already largely extinct/lost/abandoned, or where not yet in existence).

d) all-gods-are-one-god

This is an important and significant error within Freke and Gandy’s book. They spend a good deal of effort to show how Christianity borrowed from paganism, and yet they confuse the order of causation. I will quote from Ronald Hutton, the Professor of History at the University of Bristol, because 1. he is an expert in the history of paganism and 2. he was raised neopagan and is now agnostic, lest someone accuse him of Christian bias.

From “Witches, Druids, and King Arthur” (I have extracted a significant amount of the text in order to make it shorter and save myself and others work. I suggest anyone interested check out the original text, although what I have extracted is largely more information confirming the same points.)

“The classic scholarly view of the pagan religions of the Roman Empire was summed up by Ramsey MacMullen in 1981: they were essentially conservative, plural, ancestral and local… to polytheists ‘monotheists counted as atheists.’ The same view was taken… by Ken Dowdan… [and] Garth Gowden… propose[d] that the term ‘pagan’ should be dropped altogether when speaking of the pre-Christian religions…” (88)

Hutton then goes on to talk about the existence of a trend towards monotheism or ‘the ultimate unity of divinity behind its plural manifestations.’ This is what Freke and Gandy referred to, but real historians understand that this took place AFTER, and largely BECAUSE OF Christianity, not the reverse. I quote again from Hutton:

“It may be suggested here that four different processes lay behind this development. One was the creation of the Roman Empire itself… A second impulse behind the growth of pagan monotheism was the influence of Christianity itself. Jan Bremmer has noted how, from the second century onwards, apparently new mystery religions appeared devoted to gods who die and resurrect, such as Atis, or act as personal saviors, such as Mithras… A third force leading to expressions of monotheism was the need to propitiate an increasingly dominant and intolerant Christianity, by arguing… that pagan and Christian honored the same deity in different ways…[T]he fourth force…[was] the need of pagans, confronted with Christian attack, to construct a coherent theology capable of uniting the localized and disparate religions of the old polytheism and answering the challenge of the new religion.” (89-90)
 

Oberon

Well-Known Member
2) Gnosticism-

You would think that at least this early Christian thought system would be represented well by the authors. It isn’t. Below I will detail mistakes which the authors make concerning Gnosticism

a) Representing Gnosticism as unified system

Gnosticism is an umbrella term given by scholars to a diverse group of both Christian and non-Christian thought systems/texts/practices. The members themselves would not have referred to themselves as “Gnostics.” In fact, scholars of Gnosticism do not even agree just who should be counted as Gnostic and who shouldn’t. The diversity between different systems is so apparent that certain scholars (see particularly “Rethinking Gnosticism”) suggest the term be abandoned all together.

b) Representing the Gnostics as modern day “radical”

The authors present the Gnostics as if they were feminists, enlightened, equalists, etc. In fact, most Gnostic sects believed that the world/creation was inherently bad, if not outright evil. In particular, the texts speak of a hatred of the body and of sex/carnal desire. More importantly, perhaps, the Gnostics were elitists. They believed that only a select group of believers would be saved, while all others would perish.




I will get to the problems with Freke and Gandy’s treatment of the historical Jesus later, but others should feel free to comment in the meantime.
 

Jordan St. Francis

Well-Known Member
Excellent work so far. This is certainly an increasingly popular cultural myth, being propagated among the likes of people who think that the film "Zeitgeist" will "change your opinions regarding religion forever", as I was recently told by someone. Being involved in the study of religion, I find this highly frustrating.
 

dogsgod

Well-Known Member
1. I think Freke and Gandy are a bit of a distraction. I think there is far better scholarship that reveals the Christian myth.

2. The best way to prove that the myth is not a myth is to provide evidence for an historical Jesus.
 

logician

Well-Known Member
Let's use a few statistics here. 95+ percent of "expert" bibilical scholars are Christian writers, and 100 percent of them believe Jesus existed. Is that biased? By definition the "vast" majority of scholars are going to believe in the historicity of Jesus, and the remaining few percent will have a mixture of both. It's easy then to attack the one or 2 percent left that DON'T believe Jesus existed as charletons, fools, etc. and use the bandwagon theory as the basis for your claim.
 

Oberon

Well-Known Member
Let's use a few statistics here. 95+ percent of "expert" bibilical scholars are Christian writers, and 100 percent of them believe Jesus existed. Is that biased? By definition the "vast" majority of scholars are going to believe in the historicity of Jesus, and the remaining few percent will have a mixture of both. It's easy then to attack the one or 2 percent left that DON'T believe Jesus existed as charletons, fools, etc. and use the bandwagon theory as the basis for your claim.

First, where do these "statistics" come from, or are you simply pulling numbers out of thin air? Second, it was biblical scholars who first shed doubt on the historicity of the gospels. Third, classical historians and those whose expertise coincides in some areas with biblical scholars also acknowledge Jesus was historical. Fourth, although many biblical scholars are Christian, very few are conservative Christians in any sense. The vast majority of Christian biblical scholars are very liberal, and many of the most critical examinations of gospel historicity come from Christians. Fifth, there is no 2 percent left. All scholars of this time period acknowledge Jesus as historical, because they (unlike you) are familiar with the type of evidence for historical persons of that area. And finally, it is easy to attack the historical Jesus scholarship by attacking the people rather than their work, especially when you aren't adequately acquainted with any of the relevent issues.

1. I think Freke and Gandy are a bit of a distraction. I think there is far better scholarship that reveals the Christian myth.

For example?

2. The best way to prove that the myth is not a myth is to provide evidence for an historical Jesus

That is for other threads. However, I will point out that the problem most of the "skeptics" have, apart from a lack of familiarity with actual scholarship, is a lack of familiarity with the type of historical information and sources usually available for people in ancient times.
 

Oberon

Well-Known Member
So far I have only indirectly discussed Freke and Gandy’s take on the historical Jesus. I have pointed out the numerous flaws with their attempt (and others like them) to turn Jesus into just another mythic god. Now I will turn to their actual treatment of historical sources for Jesus, presented primarily in their chapter titled “The Missing Man.”

The first thing the authors do is point out that there are multiple authors who wrote “within a century” of the time of Jesus, and that none of them refer to Jesus. What they don’t tell you is that most of these authors, such as Theon of Smyrna (who discussed mathematics and philosophy), or Martial (a poet), or Quintilian (an orator and rhetorician), were not historians, and would therefore have no reason whatsoever to reference Jesus. What they also say is that until the followers of Jesus became a significant minority, there would be no reason for roman historians to take any notice. And, in fact, this is about where we first get references to Jesus and Christians, from Pliny and Tacitus. Freke and Gandy are right to point out that Tacitus was far removed from the event, and Pliny doesn’t actually discuss Jesus, but this skepticism is missing when it comes to the treatment of Pythagoras or other pagans previously mentioned.

The authors then turn to Philo and Justus of Tiberias, who don’t mention Jesus and who (they assert) should have. What they don’t say is that we don’t actually possess the work of Justus of Tiberias, so we can’t really say whether or not there are references to Jesus. As for Philo, he also doesn’t discuss John the Baptist, although Josephus does, nor is Paul mentioned by him, although we have letters from Paul himself. The Teacher of Righteousness if likewise not mentioned, known only from Qumran writings, and Josephus (a Pharisee) doesn’t even mention Hillel. In other words, Freke and Gandy’s position that had Jesus actually lived we would have more sources is woefully ignorant.

The authors then move onto Josephus. They discuss the reference to Jesus in book 18 of Antiquities of the Jews. It is true that most scholars agree that this passage has been corrupted by Christians. However, they don’t mention that most scholars also argue that the reference to Jesus is genuine, but has been altered or corrupted. They also fail to mention that Josephus reference Jesus later in Antiquities, and that almost all scholars accept this as genuinely (and uncorrupted) Josephus. Freke and Gandy also state “Early Christians who, like us, searched for historical evidence of Jesus’ existence, would have seized on anything written by Josephus a conclusive proof” (137). This is blatantly false. We have no such evidence for a search by early Christians, as they were only concerned with arguing that Jesus was divine, or discussing the particulars of his divinity. Nobody, not even pagans like Celsus (who ridiculed the Christians) argued that Jesus was “unhistorical.” They all accepted that, so there would have been no reason for early Christians to reference Josephus.

The authors then turn to the gospels, and point out inconsistencies and inaccuracies. Perhaps, to a Christian wishing to argue the infallible nature of the bible, these points would be a problem. To a historian, however, such inconsistencies are par for the course, as far as ancient history is concerned. Ancient historians included myths, fables, rumors, etc, in their work. And as I mentioned before, Freke and Gandy accept plenty of what is obviously unhistorical when it comes to the lives of various pagans. Only with Jesus are their critical “skills” so razor sharp. Freke and Gandy close by misrepresenting the current state of historical Jesus scholarship, including the quote from Bultmann (see above) taken out of context.
 

Mr Cheese

Well-Known Member
Let's use a few statistics here. 95+ percent of "expert" bibilical scholars are Christian writers, and 100 percent of them believe Jesus existed. Is that biased? By definition the "vast" majority of scholars are going to believe in the historicity of Jesus, and the remaining few percent will have a mixture of both. It's easy then to attack the one or 2 percent left that DON'T believe Jesus existed as charletons, fools, etc. and use the bandwagon theory as the basis for your claim.

amen.
 

cesara

Reclaiming my innocence
b) Representing the Gnostics as modern day “radical”

The authors present the Gnostics as if they were feminists, enlightened, equalists, etc. In fact, most Gnostic sects believed that the world/creation was inherently bad, if not outright evil. In particular, the texts speak of a hatred of the body and of sex/carnal desire. More importantly, perhaps, the Gnostics were elitists. They believed that only a select group of believers would be saved, while all others would perish.

Ermm, no....unless your only reference is the heresiologists. Gnostic texts found in the Nag Hammadi clearly celebrate things like birth, sex and nature. The idea illuminated from the NHL is that physical reality can be wonderful, but don't be fooled into thinking that is ALL there is.

Further, Gnostics were [and are] universalists -- everyone is 'saved' if they so choose to be. Gnostic elitism was espoused by heresiologists to further discredit an ideology they disagreed with.
 

Oberon

Well-Known Member
Gnostic texts found in the Nag Hammadi clearly celebrate things like birth, sex and nature.

No, they don't. If there is anything that unites gnostic thought, it is a radical hatred of sex and the body.
Further, Gnostics were [and are] universalists -- everyone is 'saved' if they so choose to be. Gnostic elitism was espoused by heresiologists to further discredit an ideology they disagreed with.
Wrong. This elitism is present in the gnostic texts we have.
 

cesara

Reclaiming my innocence
No, they don't. If there is anything that unites gnostic thought, it is a radical hatred of sex and the body.

Wrong. This elitism is present in the gnostic texts we have.

Wrong. And wrong, again. But, I digress. :D
 

logician

Well-Known Member
Wrong. And wrong, again. But, I digress. :D

Oberaon misrepresents and distracts, and essentially states only fools believe Jesus didn't exist - the common MO of pro-literalists throughout the ages. This has been the MO used against all
"heretics" since Christianity got a start.

He can't even describe the traits of this real Jesus that is presumed to exist.

There certainly are many strong arguments out there against the historicity of Jesus, he chooses to ignore them, or claim the writers as fools or radicals.
 
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Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
Oberaon misrepresents and distracts, and essentially states only fools believe Jesus didn't exist - the common MO of pro-literalists throughout the ages. This has been the MO used against all
"heretics" since Christianity got a start.

So by "misrepresent" and "distract" you must mean "clarify" and "focus attention on the right issues."

BTW, Oberon is hardly a literalist. He's just not a hack.

He can't even describe the traits of this real Jesus that is presumed to exist.

Irrelevant.

There certainly are many strong arguments out there against the historicity of Jesus, he chooses to ignore them, or claim the writers as fools or radicals.

Produce one of these "strong arguments." And so far, he's done a good job of showing that one argument in particular is weak and based on poor methodology. But instead of dealing with Oberon's arguments, you call him names. That figures. I expected nothing better from you.
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
Irrelevant.

It`s not irrelevant actually.

I understand this thread is focused on one specific piece of writing (which I have not read)but sooner or later it`s all going to come down to Christ-Myth believers demanding evidence of Christ from the Christ-Real believers.

Considering the only positive claim being made in this entire debate is that "Jesus Christ was a real historical person" sooner or later someone`s going to ask for evidence to support that positive statement.

All the evidence I know of are the gospels themselves and a single reference from Josephus concerning "James the brother of Christ" which is really quite vague.

Anyone have any more?
 

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
It`s not irrelevant actually.

I understand this thread is focused on one specific piece of writing (which I have not read)but sooner or later it`s all going to come down to Christ-Myth believers demanding evidence of Christ from the Christ-Real believers.

Considering the only positive claim being made in this entire debate is that "Jesus Christ was a real historical person" sooner or later someone`s going to ask for evidence to support that positive statement.

All the evidence I know of are the gospels themselves and a single reference from Josephus concerning "James the brother of Christ" which is really quite vague.

Anyone have any more?

The gospels actually represent a rather rich corpus of information. Jesus is the most well-attested individual of ancient history. The only reason to reject the accounts is a bias against the supernatural. IMO, so much the worse for the bias.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
linwood said:
All the evidence I know of are the gospels themselves and a single reference from Josephus concerning "James the brother of Christ" which is really quite vague.

True.

The single reference in Josephus' work also don't say anything about the Jesus - the miracle maker. A single reference don't tell us who this Jesus or Christ really is. It certainly don't support any of the narratives found in the gospels.

With Julius Caesar, we not only have his own writing, but that of his contemporary, particularly his enemies.

With Jesus, we only have the gospel authors, and letters by various followers, and a single reference from Josephus, and the reference hardly substaniate Jesus as being a real person. None of Jesus' enemies as given by the various gospels, Jesus' contemporaries - the pharisees - write of nothing of Jesus. Why?

Surely there would have been at least one of the enemies, who would try to discredit Jesus and his miracles...if it did happen as it say, but all we get is silence in this period.
 
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ghunter1

Member
Sorry just joined this thread - but someone asking for a source for statistics!!! It is hard to know where to begin with that question. Stats will always say what you want them to say, you just have to phrase the question correctly.
That apart, jesus, man or myth? In my opinion yes.
He was a man and he has become a myth. There are 'writings' from the bible and other sources that mention him but as the bible became an a'pproved' version after nicaea, how can anyone accept what it says. It would be like the government telling us the 2nd world war never happend, we all just went on holiday but some never came back.
 

J Bryson

Well-Known Member
Sorry just joined this thread - but someone asking for a source for statistics!!! It is hard to know where to begin with that question. Stats will always say what you want them to say, you just have to phrase the question correctly.
That apart, jesus, man or myth? In my opinion yes.
He was a man and he has become a myth. There are 'writings' from the bible and other sources that mention him but as the bible became an a'pproved' version after nicaea, how can anyone accept what it says. It would be like the government telling us the 2nd world war never happend, we all just went on holiday but some never came back.

That's quite well-stated. Frubals.
 
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