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The Myth of The Jesus Myth

logician

Well-Known Member
We can be about as certain that a historical Jesus existed that resembled the biblical Jesus in many ways as we can about anything from ancient history.




We have lots of evidence.

1.We can be about as certain that a historical Jesus existed that resembled the biblical Jesus in many ways as we can about anything from ancient history.

Patently false, there are reams of evidence and documementation about Julius Caesar, and other emperors, and for that matter, many minor characters in history. The supposed jesus by comparison has pathetically little evidence in support of his existence.


2. have lots of evidence

See above.
 

logician

Well-Known Member
We don't assume that Paul existed a priori. We have his letters. We know about Josephus too. As for the gospels, we don't know who wrote them. Luke at least, however, gives us a good idea of his involvement in the early christian church. He was certainly in a more than adequate position to know what the followers of Jesus were saying about Jesus' mission. So was Paul. The author of John was too, but he seems less interested in history and more interested in theology.

Using the NT as evidence for its own legitimacy is also the ultimate in bad logic.
 

Oberon

Well-Known Member
Using the NT as evidence for its own legitimacy is also the ultimate in bad logic.

Ridiculous. For one thing, the NT is composed of numerous different texts which can be compared with one another. For another, these text can be analyzed individually to determine genre and credibility. They can also be compared with what we know from texts outside the NT. For example, we know from other sources that Herod, Ananias, John the Baptist, Pilate, James (jesus' brother) etc, are all historical figures. Which means that, for example, Luke is placing Jesus in actual places in history in a specific time period not long before Luke. We can compare his style of composition with other historical works. We can compare his statement about eyewitnesses with statements from Papias, Polycarp, etc, and we find that this was the way the Jesus tradition was passed along.

In other words, not only can we compare gospel texts with each other, and analyze them alone, we can compare them with texts outside the NT.
 

Oberon

Well-Known Member
Patently false, there are reams of evidence and documementation about Julius Caesar, and other emperors, and for that matter, many minor characters in history. The supposed jesus by comparison has pathetically little evidence in support of his existence.

Really? So far your only example has been julias caesar. Where is the "reams of evidence and documention" for other characters in history? Particularly "minor" ones?
 

logician

Well-Known Member
Ridiculous. For one thing, the NT is composed of numerous different texts which can be compared with one another. For another, these text can be analyzed individually to determine genre and credibility. They can also be compared with what we know from texts outside the NT. For example, we know from other sources that Herod, Ananias, John the Baptist, Pilate, James (jesus' brother) etc, are all historical figures. Which means that, for example, Luke is placing Jesus in actual places in history in a specific time period not long before Luke. We can compare his style of composition with other historical works. We can compare his statement about eyewitnesses with statements from Papias, Polycarp, etc, and we find that this was the way the Jesus tradition was passed along.

In other words, not only can we compare gospel texts with each other, and analyze them alone, we can compare them with texts outside the NT.

Sure, yeah, right.
 

Oberon

Well-Known Member
Sure, yeah, right.


Not an unexpected response. When you don't have a counter-argument, sarcasm triumphs where reason dare not tread. Still waiting for all those "minor figures" of ancient history with "reams" of historical data for their existence.
 

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
Not an unexpected response. When you don't have a counter-argument, sarcasm triumphs where reason dare not tread. Still waiting for all those "minor figures" of ancient history with "reams" of historical data for their existence.

Don't hold your breath.
 

logician

Well-Known Member
Not an unexpected response. When you don't have a counter-argument, sarcasm triumphs where reason dare not tread. Still waiting for all those "minor figures" of ancient history with "reams" of historical data for their existence.

Sure, right, sure.
 

Buttons*

Glass half Panda'd
Well Oberon, I do have one question. If we take into account when the Gospels were written versus the timeline of Yeshua's life... it doesn't seem to mesh when we claim that the authors knew Yeshua.

Paul certainly never met the man. The Gospels themselves are largely inconsistent when writing what happened to Yeshua. There are major flaws in each story... so how can we know which one is most correct? By who knew Yeshua during life? None of the writers of the Gospel did, unless we believe these men lived to be at least 100. I have some examples:

Luke: 23:46 Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit."
Matthew: 27:46 About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi,[c] lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"[d]

These contradict. There are also problems when two Gospels mention differing geneologies of Yeshua.
 

Oberon

Well-Known Member
Well Oberon, I do have one question. If we take into account when the Gospels were written versus the timeline of Yeshua's life... it doesn't seem to mesh when we claim that the authors knew Yeshua.

I think we can be fairly certain the authors didn't know them. Rather, people who did know him were tasked with passing on his teachings accurately.

The Gospels themselves are largely inconsistent when writing what happened to Yeshua.

They aren't largely inconsistent. If I went down to the store, I could find two very different books on Kennedy.

The gospel authors were not writing modern biography, but ancient biography. Moreover, for the most part they weren't dealing with a story told about jesus. They were dealing with a store of teachings, parables, short narratives, etc told about him. Each gospel author took this material and put it into a narrative, including their own redactions. The overall narrative is imposed over these independent oral traditions.

Now, are there inconsistencies? Of course. But this was not only typical of ancient history, but modern as well. Certainly the gospels cohere more than they disagree, even John and the synoptics have a lot of agreement.

These contradict. There are also problems when two Gospels mention differing geneologies of Yeshua.

You are dealing with sources representing what was primarily and oral tradition, and even the written tradition was treated orally. In an short, pithy saying, verbatim transmission or close to it may be the norm. In a parable, certain details could alter, as long as the main thrust was the same. Events have more alteration, simply because they happen only once, and can be told from the beginning from multiple points of view.

The point is that none of these minor inconsistencies say anything against the historicity of Jesus.
 

Buttons*

Glass half Panda'd
I think we can be fairly certain the authors didn't know them. Rather, people who did know him were tasked with passing on his teachings accurately.

They aren't largely inconsistent. If I went down to the store, I could find two very different books on Kennedy.

The gospel authors were not writing modern biography, but ancient biography. Moreover, for the most part they weren't dealing with a story told about jesus. They were dealing with a store of teachings, parables, short narratives, etc told about him. Each gospel author took this material and put it into a narrative, including their own redactions. The overall narrative is imposed over these independent oral traditions.

Now, are there inconsistencies? Of course. But this was not only typical of ancient history, but modern as well. Certainly the gospels cohere more than they disagree, even John and the synoptics have a lot of agreement.

You are dealing with sources representing what was primarily and oral tradition, and even the written tradition was treated orally. In an short, pithy saying, verbatim transmission or close to it may be the norm. In a parable, certain details could alter, as long as the main thrust was the same. Events have more alteration, simply because they happen only once, and can be told from the beginning from multiple points of view.

The point is that none of these minor inconsistencies say anything against the historicity of Jesus.
So you are ok with canonical inconsistency, but not ok with Gnostic inconsistencies? ...I'll let that one go for now, since this isn't a discussion about Gnosticism.

If the Jewish community who had become newly anointed in Christ were left with carrying on his teachings by way of oral tradition, wouldn't it make sense that they also wrote the books? Why did this story have to travel to Greece before anything was put on papyrus? Jews are EXCELLENT record keepers. Why do we have no record of a Jewish printing of these texts? Do you think they are lost to bad fortune and time? We don't even have the "original" document, so it's hard to say, I imagine. But all the same, you would think that new Christian-Jews would have had first pick of what happened, and that they would have differed from the Greek miracles we see in these stories.

I remember that Freke and Gandy cite that no one else knew of Yeshua except those who wrote of professing the faith. We would only look to the Gospels in order to determine a historical Yeshua... but there's nothing else we CAN look at. There are no records of him in the Roman logs, and similarly, anyone who claimed to know him or knew of him was dead by the time the stories were written down... and I wonder if we can take this as fact if it's after the fact.

I don't know or really care if Yeshua was alive. Because to me, that's not the point. In all probability he was, but this is an interesting debate. :)

On the other hand, if Yeshua did live, perhaps it's the case that he didn't perform miracles like the Gospel authors suggest. There are many who in ancient Greece attributed special powers and miracles to those who had superior intelligence or understanding. It was said that Pythagoras could also walk on water... etc. (I read this somewhere... but I think it may have been from Gandy and Freke... if so, I'm sorry. It's a piece of trivia that stuck with me.)

So even if Yeshua had lived, I imagine the Jewish oral story and the Greek oral story would have vastly differed from what it is. Some of the miracles Yeshua performed were textbook Greek God. It seems that the text at the time was reaching out to fellow Greeks, hence the heavy reliance on neo-platonism. If Yeshua existed, what can we attribute to him? Can we separate the things that were just thrown into the story? How? What is important for us to understand about this story if miracles are attributed to Greek tradition?

(By the way, Kennedy has all kinds of conspiracy theories on his head... no wonder they're inconsistent :D )
 
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Oberon

Well-Known Member
So you are ok with canonical inconsistency, but not ok with Gnostic inconsistencies? ...I'll let that one go for now, since this isn't a discussion about Gnosticism.


I don't have a "problem" with gnostic texts at all, so I don't know what you mean.

I remember that Freke and Gandy cite that no one else knew of Yeshua except those who wrote of professing the faith.
And they were wrong. They discussed Josephus, but ignored one of the references to Jesus in Josephus, and stated that the other has been determined by scholarship to be a forgery. Only they are completely wrong. The consensus of scholarship is that this passage contains a genuine Josephan core, and that Josephus did indeed write about Jesus.


We would only look to the Gospels in order to determine a historical Yeshua... but there's nothing else we CAN look at.

The epistles. But yes, the synoptics, and secondarily John and Thomas, are our best sources for knowing about the historical Jesus, beyond the bare fact that he existed. However, they are pretty good sources. All ancient history (and a whole lot of modern history) was biased. The gospels have plenty of christian bias. However, they do record even things embarrasing to the early christians. As far as ancient biographies go, they aren't that bad, and they are pretty close to the events they describe.

There are no records of him in the Roman logs, and similarly, anyone who claimed to know him or knew of him was dead by the time the stories were written down

That simply isn't true. When Mark was written, not to mention Q and Paul, many eyewitnesses would still be alive. Luke also knew eyewitnesses to Jesus. In fact, even Papias, writing after John was written, knew witnesses to Jesus' mission.

It was said that Pythagoras could also walk on water... etc. (I read this somewhere... but I think it may have been from Gandy and Freke... if so, I'm sorry. It's a piece of trivia that stuck with me.)

The biography of Pythagoras was written centuries after he died.

Some of the miracles Yeshua performed were textbook Greek God.

No, they aren't.


If Yeshua existed, what can we attribute to him?

There are a number of methodologies employed to seperate what is likely historical and goes back to Jesus from what probably isn't.
 

Oberon

Well-Known Member
That may well be true, but your reply does not answer the question.

The only reason I point this out is because I am also interested in the answer.


The reason I didn't go into the answer is in part because it is somewhat complicated and in part because these are used to try to figure out more than "jesus was historical" but "what was his purpose? what did he say? Teach? etc". In other words, they are beyond the scope of this thread.

However, I can give you a few criteria used.

1. Criterion of multiple attestation: If it is found in multiple independent sources (e.g. Paul, Q, Mark, and John) it is more likely to be historical.

2. Criterion of embarrassment: if it is embarrassing to the early christians (like Jesus' rejection of his family and hometown, or their thinking he was out of his mind) it is more likely to be historical (because why would the early church add things to the tradition which were embarrassing?)

3. Teachings/Sayings are more likely to be retained accurately than events. Teachers in the ancient world, cross-culturally, repeated their teachings over and over again, almost always making their followers memorize them. Events, however, happen only once, and are more likely to get details confused in retelling.

4. If a particular saying of Jesus is not found in the early church (such as his son of man formula) it is more likely not to be an invention.

5. If a number of things are characterstic of Jesus, something which coheres with these are considered more likely to go back to Jesus.

And so forth.
 

McBell

Unbound
The reason I didn't go into the answer is in part because it is somewhat complicated and in part because these are used to try to figure out more than "jesus was historical" but "what was his purpose? what did he say? Teach? etc". In other words, they are beyond the scope of this thread.

However, I can give you a few criteria used.

1. Criterion of multiple attestation: If it is found in multiple independent sources (e.g. Paul, Q, Mark, and John) it is more likely to be historical.

2. Criterion of embarrassment: if it is embarrassing to the early christians (like Jesus' rejection of his family and hometown, or their thinking he was out of his mind) it is more likely to be historical (because why would the early church add things to the tradition which were embarrassing?)

3. Teachings/Sayings are more likely to be retained accurately than events. Teachers in the ancient world, cross-culturally, repeated their teachings over and over again, almost always making their followers memorize them. Events, however, happen only once, and are more likely to get details confused in retelling.

4. If a particular saying of Jesus is not found in the early church (such as his son of man formula) it is more likely not to be an invention.

5. If a number of things are characterstic of Jesus, something which coheres with these are considered more likely to go back to Jesus.

And so forth.
I understand how the clock works.
I am much more interested in what it says.


In other words you did not answer the question, you merely described how to get the answer.

I am interested in the answers you got, not the way you got them.
You have as yet to provide the answer....
 

Oberon

Well-Known Member
I am interested in the answers you got, not the way you got them.
You have as yet to provide the answer....

Do you mean my evaluation of the historicity of each particular saying/narrative in the Jesus tradition? Or my general impression as to Jesus' mission?
 

blueman

God's Warrior
It's truly pathetic and weak to make an argument regarding whether Jesus was a historical figure. Even the majority of skeptics agree that there is sufficient evidence for the existence of Jesus in 1st century Palestine. Secondly, the Bible is truly the greatest and sustaining historical book of the 1st century. Compare it to any other historical work and you cannot argue with the attention to detail, historical precision associated with the greatest book of all time.
 

EtuMalku

Abn Iblis ابن إبليس
Then explain to me why this Jesus dude, or Yeshua of Nazarath, or Messiah or any number of names he became known by was never mentioned once in any Roman piece of literature? The Romans were well known for keeping detailed and accurate information so you would think there would be at the very least a slight blurb somewhere mentioning this Son of God person, wouldn't you think? How about the list of people crucified that day? Nope, he's not there either.
 
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