The New Testament is not a Closed Canon.

[John D. Brey]

Moses was the intermediate. And all those who received inspiration, translated and put the oral traditions in writing, finally collected, redacted, into its final form. According to Rabbi Ishmael, the "Torah speaks the language of human beings."

Quoting from 'On the Kabbala and its Symbolism'
"With his daring statement that the actual revelation to Israel consisted only of the 'aleph', Rabbi Mendel transformed the revelation on Mount Sinai into a mystical revelation, pregnant with final meaning, but without specific meaning...It has to be translated into human language, and that is what Moses did. In this light every statement on which authority is grounded would become a human interpretation, however valid and exalted, of something that transcends it."

Great quotation for this thread. The Pentateuch is a cipher-text. It came as a string of hieroglyphic ciphers with no word-breaks or punctuation. This means it means nothing until it's interpreted. The interpreter has to determine where one word stops and another starts (where one idea begins and another ends). . . In this sense the Pentateuch can produce quite a number of different, legitimate, narratives.

The Masoretic Text is only one reading of the text. It's no doubt part-and-parcel of the farce being foisted on the God-believer that the MT is taken as the only, or authoritative meaning of the text, as though the Pentateuch could be nailed down (so to say) to just one traditional interpretation; one which by the way became the one that got a particular Torah-scholar nailed down for suggesting there was a better reading, a reading closer to the Author than the reading codified and canonized in the Masoretic Text



John

 

[djhwoodwerks]

The blessed apostle Paul would have, yes. So, he's actually correct

rather what ''should'' be in the Bible

You think Paul knew about all the other books that were written? When, and IF he read the book of Acts, lets say, he knew it would someday be part of a larger book known as a Bible?

He knew of the book of Revelation by John, and knew it too would someday be part of a larger book known as the Bible?

 

[John D. Brey]

I don't think so. Do you have any theories as to why you are correct?

. . . Yes. But unfortunately every theory would require another theory to support it, leading to an infinite regression, ending up in the limbo of the lost. . . Which is why Wittgenstein prefaced his magnum opus with the preface that only someone who had already thought about the ideas in his book would likely have an inkling about what he was getting on about.

. . . For the dialogue to be fruitful you need to bring something more than just skepticism to the discussion.



John

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

. . . Because the Pentateuch began as text, while the Gospels and Apostolic Writing began as talk.



John

the Pentateuch started as two verbal traditions. nothing was written down till after the destruction of the first temple.

 

[Desert Snake]

. . . Yes. But unfortunately every theory would require another theory to support it, leading to an infinite regression, ending up in the limbo of the lost. . . Which is why Wittgenstein prefaced his magnum opus with the preface that only someone who had already thought about the ideas in his book would likely have an inkling about what he was getting on about.

. . . For the dialogue to be fruitful you need to bring something more than just skepticism to the discussion.



John

You never explained why it was necessary to Mikvah. Hence I don't have an indication to just take your statements as products of good theories. And the fact that you think skepticism is the only reason I'm disagreeing with you, is telling as well.

 

[Desert Snake]

the Pentateuch started as two verbal traditions. nothing was written down till after the destruction of the first temple.

Not if it's completely symbolic lol.

anyways


Yes of course the idea that it should/would not ''begin as text''.

the Bible starts with 'in the begininng'', sure no texts at that time

 

[Desert Snake]

You think Paul knew about all the other books that were written? When, and IF he read the book of Acts, lets say, he knew it would someday be part of a larger book known as a Bible?

He knew of the book of Revelation by John, and knew it too would someday be part of a larger book known as the Bible?

The Apostles, would have known what should/has to be in the Bible. Keep in mind that some Reformers didn't even like the book of Revelation...I'm not exactly studying the book of revelation myself, but to simply reference works that students of the Apostles thought equal to be included in the Bible... what is that saying?
If you want to not include certain books that weren't Apostle approved, go for it.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

The Apostles, would have known what should/has to be in the Bible. Keep in mind that some Reformers didn't even like the book of Revelation...I'm not exactly studying the book of revelation myself, but to simply reference works that students of the Apostles though equal to be included in the Bible.. what is that saying?
If you want to not include certain books that weren't Apostle approved, go for it.

As far as we know the apostles had no books to approve.

 

[Desert Snake]

As far as we know the apostles had no books to approve.

Writings. And in some respects your correct. They knew what ''teachings'' ie writings/Scribal, pre=existing OT books as well, should be in a Bible. This is why the beliefs parallel the text, the texts don't inform the beliefs. This is also why no matter how much a church academic, or a secular academic, read and study ''Scripture'', if they don't have the actual teaching, they make mistakes. Yes for certain arguments, the texts are used, and actually the texts are important, but they lose their value without the basis, the teaching and theology.

 

[David T]

Nothing in regards to the pentatuch existed before it was written down? Do you suppose that the pentatuch exists ex nihilo out of the void and zapped the writers and they recorded? Like some alien that has super powers outside reality? I have seen that somewhere else too!!! I love Dr who.

 

[David T]

Writings. And in some respects your correct. They knew what ''teachings'' ie writings/Scribal, pre=existing OT books as well, should be in a Bible. This is why the beliefs parallel the text, the texts don't inform the beliefs. This is also why no matter how much a church academic, or a secular academic, read and study ''Scripture'', if they don't have the actual teaching, they make mistakes. Yes for certain arguments, the texts are used, and actually the texts are important, but they lose their value without the basis, the teaching and theology.

By 300 ad that's clearly not the case.

 

[moorea944]

The Pentateuch is direct revelation from God without intermediation. Paul says the angels were mediators of the Pentateuch, but only in the sense of delivering it to earth. They don't necessarily even know what it means.

All scripture outside of the Pentateuch is interpretation of the Pentateuch. Every scripture to include the Gospels and Apostolic Writings are interpretation and commentary on the Pentateuch.

The Gospels and Apostolic Writings are just as much a part of the so-called "Old Testament" as is Zechariah and Malachi.


John

The Pentateuch is direct revelation from God without intermediation. Paul says the angels were mediators of the Pentateuch, but only in the sense of delivering it to earth. They don't necessarily even know what it means.

A few things here make me feel uneasy in your writings..
About the angels, are you saying that they were doing something for God and they didnt know what they were doing or what it was all about? I cant see that... at all...

All scripture outside of the Pentateuch is interpretation of the Pentateuch.

What????.....

Every scripture to include the Gospels and Apostolic Writings are interpretation and commentary on the Pentateuch.

Why are you so hung up on the Pentateuch?

The Gospels and Apostolic Writings are just as much a part of the so-called "Old Testament" as is Zechariah and Malachi.

Yes, everything is of God. God was working through them to bring us His Word. If something was really wrong with the bible, I dont think God would let it in there. That would be saying like God is not in control of His works and plan and purpose.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Yes, everything is of God. God was working through them to bring us His Word. If something was really wrong with the bible, I dont think God would let it in there. That would be saying like God is not in control of His works and plan and purpose.

It should be clear to everyone by now that God is not a control freak.
Though he created the universe he does not "Run" it. He has a very light touch.

In this world, most of what happens is delegated to us to bring to fruition.
Often we mess up on a grand scale... and have to start over.
We know nothing of God's plan in detail, but we have been taught the basics by Jesus, and the prophets. and by the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Some of this has been encapsulated in the scriptures and some undoubtedly lost or discarded

It is clear that protecting his creation, nature and the ecology of the world has taken a very low priority in our lives.
We have also ignored the instruction to love God and one another.
We despoil, kill and maim and steal, on a grand scale, to gratify our own selfish desires.
We defy the wishes of God. and bring his creation to ruin.
We are not acting like the children of God,
We favour Evil.
We know we are doing wrong, but persist in sin.

Does anyone honestly believe this is part of God's plan?
Or are we fighting against it?

 

[omega2xx]

. . . Because the Pentateuch began as text, while the Gospels and Apostolic Writing began as talk.



John

The Pentateuch also began as talk. What do you think happened when Moses was on Mount Sinai with God for 40 days and nights. It does not take that long to write 10 commandmets.

The whole Bible starts with gtale---The Go SAID--Gen 1:3
The the Lord SAID to Noah..
The Lord SAID to Abraham...
God spoke to His people through the Prophets.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

No other books or writings were Inspired by God, nor could they be, because that would make the words of Galatians wrong.

Yes, God forbid God might say something that would make Paul angry.

The blessed apostle Paul would have, yes. So, he's actually correct

rather what ''should'' be in the Bible

And with Paul's tremendous humility, he encouraged the use of many texts, just not his ... oh, wait ...

 

[John D. Brey]

The Pentateuch also began as talk. What do you think happened when Moses was on Mount Sinai with God for 40 days and nights. It does not take that long to write 10 commandmets.

The whole Bible starts with gtale---The Go SAID--Gen 1:3
The the Lord SAID to Noah..
The Lord SAID to Abraham...
God spoke to His people through the Prophets.

The ten commandments are kind of a metaphor for the entire Law (Torah) which is the Pentateuch. According to tradition the entire Pentateuch was written by God's angelic scribe/amanuensis.


John

 

[moorea944]

It should be clear to everyone by now that God is not a control freak.
Though he created the universe he does not "Run" it. He has a very light touch.

In this world, most of what happens is delegated to us to bring to fruition.
Often we mess up on a grand scale... and have to start over.
We know nothing of God's plan in detail, but we have been taught the basics by Jesus, and the prophets. and by the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Some of this has been encapsulated in the scriptures and some undoubtedly lost or discarded

It is clear that protecting his creation, nature and the ecology of the world has taken a very low priority in our lives.
We have also ignored the instruction to love God and one another.
We despoil, kill and maim and steal, on a grand scale, to gratify our own selfish desires.
We defy the wishes of God. and bring his creation to ruin.
We are not acting like the children of God,
We favour Evil.
We know we are doing wrong, but persist in sin.

Does anyone honestly believe this is part of God's plan?
Or are we fighting against it?

It should be clear to everyone by now that God is not a control freak.
Though he created the universe he does not "Run" it. He has a very light touch.

I disagree. But I wouldnt really use the words "control freak". Is God in control, yes. But He also lets us run it to a certain degree. To say that our Creator is not in control, doesnt bring Him the Glory that He deserves. We also read in scripture that the world is a mess like this to bring us hope of something better. (Romans 8)

We also read that God is working through the nations around us to one day bring them together against Israel. That's all through scripture, esp, in OT.

We know nothing of God's plan in detail, but we have been taught the basics by Jesus, and the prophets. and by the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Some of this has been encapsulated in the scriptures and some undoubtedly lost or discarded

I think we do know alot of His plan and purpose with us and the earth. Not everything of course. But our future is explained on some parts in great detail.

Does anyone honestly believe this is part of God's plan?
Or are we fighting against it?

I do believe that this is God's plan. He has given the world a choice. We can live our lives on of two ways. We can live our lives to God or we can live our lives the way we see fit. But we know what will happen when Christ will come back.

2 Thes 1 "And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

And... I agree with you on the point that most of the people in the world are fighting against it.

 

[pearl]

The Pentateuch is a cipher-text. It came as a string of hieroglyphic ciphers with no word-breaks or punctuation.

True, imagine reading from endless scrolls without any punctuation. But these present the final gathering of multiple oral traditions, from the northern kingdom of Israel and the southern kingdom of Judah. Scholars have identified four distinct traditions through the Pentateuch. Christian Scripture is an interpretation of Hebrew Scripture, believing Jesus to be the embodiment of the 'Law and the Prophets'.

 

[omega2xx]

The ten commandments are kind of a metaphor for the entire Law (Torah) which is the Pentateuch.

I enjoy metaphors and always look for them in Scripture. I fail to see how anything before Ex 20 is a metaphor for the law.

According to tradition the entire Pentateuch was written by God's angelic scribe/amanuensis.


John

I never accept a tradition that is not supported by God's word. It is really irrlevant who held the pen, what is important is who told what to write. IMO Moses with God 40 days and nights is a better explanation. It didn't take that long to write 10 commndments.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I disagree. But I wouldnt really use the words "control freak". Is God in control, yes. But He also lets us run it to a certain degree. To say that our Creator is not in control, doesnt bring Him the Glory that He deserves. We also read in scripture that the world is a mess like this to bring us hope of something better. (Romans 8)

The world is a mess because we make it that way. before we came on the scene, nature ran its course.

We also read that God is working through the nations around us to one day bring them together against Israel. That's all through scripture, esp, in OT.

why bring Israel into it ? God loves every one equally, he has a covenant with the Jews.

I think we do know a lot of His plan and purpose with us and the earth. Not everything of course. But our future is explained on some parts in great detail.

We know his commandments, we know nothing of his plans

I do believe that this is God's plan. He has given the world a choice. We can live our lives on of two ways. We can live our lives to God or we can live our lives the way we see fit. But we know what will happen when Christ will come back.

2 Thes 1 "And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

There are many things in the bible that I do not believe and that includes Revelations. and passages about the end of time as you have included like 2 Thes 1.

We should not do what God wants to get a reward, or to avoid such horrors, but do them because it is right to do so. we do them through love.

And... I agree with you on the point that most of the people in the world are fighting against it.