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The new universal limit 30 km/h (18.64 miles per hour)

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
So tell me: what do you think of this new universal rule?
;)
I think that unfortuntely too many people love speed. They think the car is the end of our existence, it's not a tool (that implies costs and annoying formalities).

So...they enjoy using speed ....even through big cities.
Fortunately, Brussels and Paris have decided to stop their hybris.

 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
So tell me: what do you think of this new universal rule?
;)
I think that unfortuntely too many people love speed. They think the car is the end of our existence, it's not a tool (that implies costs and annoying formalities).

So...they enjoy using speed ....even through big cities.
Fortunately, Brussels and Paris have decided to stop their hybris.


This would never go in America. When they reduced the speed limit to 55, people bristled over it. It wasn't too long before it was raised back up again.

Speed limits are just revenue enhancement for local governments. It gives the police a pretext for pulling people over, searching cars, harassing citizens, issuing citations/fines. Too many acts of police brutality have arisen out of "routine traffic stops."
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
This would never go in America. When they reduced the speed limit to 55, people bristled over it.
55 km/h in cities?
We are speaking of cities which are also old, like Paris, Rome, Brussels.
If people love speed, we have beautiful motorways, where the speed limit is very high. 110 km/h normally, up to 130 km/h.
They can go there. :)


It wasn't too long before it was raised back up again.

Speed limits are just revenue enhancement for local governments. It gives the police a pretext for pulling people over, searching cars, harassing citizens, issuing citations/fines. Too many acts of police brutality have arisen out of "routine traffic stops."
Car crashes are a plague. And the 90% of deaths are caused by speed.
Because..I was run over by a car when I was 20 something. Near my university. I was crossing the zebra crossing.
It didn't do anything to me. The car was driving a bit less than 30 km/h.
If that car's speed had been 50 km/h or more than that, I would have been hospitalized. Or even killed.
 
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9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
55 km/h in cities?
55 mph on freeways and expressways.

In American suburbs, 45 mph (70 km/h) on major streets with pedestrians and cyclists is fairly common.

North America is the land of the stroad:

 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
55 mph on freeways and expressways.
That would be 88 km/h (sorry I needed to convert in km/h to understand it :) )

But it's a fair limit, in my humble opinion.

I would never understand the point of speed. Really...I don't.
What is it?
Men love speed...why?
Car is a tool. It's not something to have fun with, :)
In American suburbs, 45 mph (70 km/h) on major streets with pedestrians and cyclists is fairly common.
And they complain? In European suburbs 70 km/h is impossible. Except rare cases, when there is a motorway or something.
North America is the land of the stroad:

In the twenties someone in my country invented the Autostrada. The German call it Autobahn.
The Germans have had the merit to build countless Autobahnen and so they basically connected all of Europe.

800px-Europe_Completed_Motorways.png
 
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Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
This would never go in America. When they reduced the speed limit to 55, people bristled over it. It wasn't too long before it was raised back up again.

Speed limits are just revenue enhancement for local governments. It gives the police a pretext for pulling people over, searching cars, harassing citizens, issuing citations/fines. Too many acts of police brutality have arisen out of "routine traffic stops."
I recall an City Council debate here about raising
the speed limit on one road that was too low to
meet state law. The winning argument was that
they got too much revenue from speeding tickets
to raise it.
Manufacturing crimes is useful to government.
By law, police are not there to protect us.
But cops may legally rob us.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
I recall an City Council debate here about raising
the speed limit on one road that was too low to
meet state law. The winning argument was that
they got too much revenue from speeding tickets
to raise it.
It's true that some mayors here take advantage of this rule to replenish the coffers of the Municipality.
And that's dishonest.
Because a speeding fine can also be of little amount: it just needs to dissuade drivers from exceeding that limit.

But speed limits save people's lives...trust me.
Do you have any idea of how many people die in a car accident? Due to speed?

 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
It's true that some mayors here take advantage of this rule to replenish the coffers of the Municipality.
And that's dishonest.
Because a speeding fine can also be of little amount: it just needs to dissuade drivers from exceeding that limit.
Here, a speeding ticket is the least of costs the
driver endures. Insurance rates are raised.
And commercial drivers can be fired for 1 ticket.

Government gets a little filthy lucre, but
causes much greater woe for drivers.
**** government.
But speed limits save people's lives...trust me.
That's not in dispute. But when limits
are so low that violations are rampant,
this also poses dangers.
Do you have any idea of how many people die in a car accident? Due to speed?
Yes.
So I am a very defensive driver.
I'd never survive in Italy.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Government gets a little filthy lucre, but
causes much greater woe for drivers.
**** government.
In Rome there is
a) taxi
b) tram
c) bus
d) subway
And much more. So using your own car in the historical center of Rome is not only stupid. But also suicidal because there are zero parking lots.
Many Romans are not intelligent.
So they shouldn't complain about that limit...and they should start using public means of transportation.
That's not in dispute. But when limits
are so low that violations are rampant,
this also poses dangers.
Tell me the limits you want to set.
a) in town (downtown)
b) in the suburbs
c) in motorways.

;)
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
This would never go in America. When they reduced the speed limit to 55, people bristled over it. It wasn't too long before it was raised back up again.

Portland, OR lowered its speed limit to 20 mph (30 km/h) on most of its residential streets a few years ago. I'm sure it wasn't universally liked, but the speed limits are still in place.

I'm sure there are other American examples; that one just stands out because I once did a webinar with Portland as a case study.

Speed limits are just revenue enhancement for local governments. It gives the police a pretext for pulling people over, searching cars, harassing citizens, issuing citations/fines. Too many acts of police brutality have arisen out of "routine traffic stops."

Most urban speed limit reductions in the US these days are part of Vision Zero programs. A core aspect of Vision Zero is looking at road safety programs through an equity lens and considering things like the impact of increased enforcement on marginalized communities. Concerns like these are one of the big reasons for the push to automated enforcement (e.g. red light cameras, photo radar).

Also, lowering the speed limit allows for a change in design philosophy for the street. These design changes allow elements to be incorporated that tend to slow traffic (e.g. narrower lanes, on-street parking, etc.) and get speeds lower without enforcement. This tends to be a longer-term thing, though, since a city can only reconstruct a handful of streets per year.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
55 km/h in cities?

55 miles per hour = 88.5139 km/h

That's on freeways and other limited access or rural highways. City speed limits can vary. Most residential streets have a speed limit of 25 mph (about 40 kph) where I live. School zones are 15 mph on school days. Minor thoroughfares and feeder streets might have a limit of 30-35 mph, with major thoroughfares being between 35-45, depending on various factors, such as the volume of traffic and the design of the road.



We are speaking of cities which are also old, like Paris, Rome, Brussels.

Yes, the older cities came into being and grew during times when there were no automobiles. America is somewhat different, particularly for western cities which grew after the invention of motor vehicles. Los Angeles is a perfect example, as it was made for cars, while public transportation is too cost prohibitive to be very useful.

Other cities in the west are similar, as they were mainly designed with the assumption that people would have cars and use them as their primary mode of transportation.

This also helped boost the rise of suburbs in the mid 20th century, since workers would live in relatively decent neighborhoods and then commute into the cities for work. At the time, it would have been seen as enhancing and improving people's quality of lives, since the cities were seen as filthy, polluted, unhealthy, and dangerous. A nice house in the suburbs was far preferable to overcrowded tenements.

If people love speed, we have beautiful motorways, where the speed limit is very high. 110 km/h normally, up to 130 km/h.
They can go there. :)

They do when they can - if they're available for the destination they need to get to.

When I was a kid, I recall an article in National Geographic which had some interesting conceptions of how they envisioned cities of the future:

Transp1.JPG


Transp2.JPG


They envisioned the above-ground areas as mainly for pedestrian traffic, whereas public transportation and motorized transportation would be mostly underground (at least in urban areas). This, to me, seems ideal at ensuring pedestrian safety, transportation efficiency, and pollution reduction. This is what we should have been building 50 years ago. But instead, this is what we have:

fx3Ax6aX-720.jpg


Car crashes are a plague. And the 90% of deaths are caused by speed.
Because..I was run over by a car when I was 20 something. Near my university. I was crossing the zebra crossing.
It didn't do anything to me. The car was driving much less than 30 km/h.
If that car's speed had been 50 km/h or more than that, I would have been hospitalized. Or even killed.

I'm glad you survived. And there's definitely risk that comes with the use of motor vehicles. I think the benefits still outweigh the risks, though I agree that we should keep trying to find ways to make transportation more safe, efficient, cost-effective, and environmentally friendly.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
In American suburbs, 45 mph (70 km/h) on major streets with pedestrians and cyclists is fairly common.
And usually 25-35 on smaller and/or busier streets, especially in school zones.

Also, public transportation and cycling accommodations in the U.S. are a joke when compared to other developed countries.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
You said "when speed limits are so low that violations are rampant, that also poses a danger".

So you owe to tell me what speed limit is enough.
:)
Your affirmation needs to be completed to make sense.
Your question demands a specific
answer to an overly general question.
Why are you doing this?
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Your question demands a specific
answer to an overly general question.
Why are you doing this?
Ok, the question is: what do you think of the speed limit in Paris, Brussels, Amsterdam, which is 30 km/h?
Thank you in advance for your kind answer.

PS. You cannot plead the fifth, this time. ;)
 

Secret Chief

Very strong language
So tell me: what do you think of this new universal rule?
;)
I think that unfortuntely too many people love speed. They think the car is the end of our existence, it's not a tool (that implies costs and annoying formalities).

So...they enjoy using speed ....even through big cities.
Fortunately, Brussels and Paris have decided to stop their hybris.

universal?
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Portland, OR lowered its speed limit to 20 mph (30 km/h) on most of its residential streets a few years ago. I'm sure it wasn't universally liked, but the speed limits are still in place.

I'm sure there are other American examples; that one just stands out because I once did a webinar with Portland as a case study.

The speed limit on residential streets where I live is 25 mph, although that's always been in place for as long as I know. It's the same in the downtown area. The speed limit approaching school crossings is 15 mph when school is in session. Most people accept that, so that wasn't what I meant.

It's usually in situations where you're on a highway out in the middle of nowhere with light traffic and good visibility that people might resist speed limits. That's also why they removed the mandated 55-mph speed limit on highways, because too many people thought it was unreasonably slow for the conditions.



Most urban speed limit reductions in the US these days are part of Vision Zero programs. A core aspect of Vision Zero is looking at road safety programs through an equity lens and considering things like the impact of increased enforcement on marginalized communities. Concerns like these are one of the big reasons for the push to automated enforcement (e.g. red light cameras, photo radar).

We used to have red light cameras and photo radar here, but the public didn't accept it. They're gone now. My main issue was that the state and some local governments made a deal with a private company to install and maintain these systems, who would then get a share of the proceeds from traffic fines. It seemed like a scam to a lot of people.

That also seems to be an underlying problem with traffic enforcement, mainly due to public perceptions that the whole thing is a scam for local governments to raise revenue. The southern sheriff speed trap has become a common trope in popular culture. People's defiance of speed limits has also become a popular image.

smokey-and-the-bandit-jackie-gleason.gif


Also, lowering the speed limit allows for a change in design philosophy for the street. These design changes allow elements to be incorporated that tend to slow traffic (e.g. narrower lanes, on-street parking, etc.) and get speeds lower without enforcement. This tends to be a longer-term thing, though, since a city can only reconstruct a handful of streets per year.

They need a new design philosophy for entire cities.
 
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