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The Old Testament - Sell It To Me!
- Thread starter Secret Chief
- Start date
exchemist
Veteran Member
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens.
Secret Chief
Veteran Member
Great novel.Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens.
I wouldn't have a problem with it. Such as with the prophets like Isaiah or Ezekiel, which upend much of what the Torah (and especially the racist Talmud) seems to say what God wants and sets the stage for the Incarnation.
Secret Chief
Veteran Member
Do you mean you think the violence justifiable? Or what?
I think fallen humans want violence and God meets us where we are. A huge part of the Bible is about human nature and striving to know God more, so it often includes parts that are not flattering and not good. Just like how He didn't want Israel to have a human king originally, but He allowed it since that's what the people wanted but He still warned them as to what will happen:
Bible Gateway passage: 1 Samuel 8 - New International Version
Israel Asks for a King - When Samuel grew old, he appointed his sons as Israel’s leaders. The name of his firstborn was Joel and the name of his second was Abijah, and they served at Beersheba. But his sons did not follow his ways. They turned aside after dishonest gain and accepted bribes and...
I personally think the Prophets mean more than the Laws of Moses. After all, Moses screwed up and broke one of the tablets and we'll never know what it was. The Bible privileges direct experiences with God over those who just follow things by rote but are hypocrites, lacking faith.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Yes, they certainly are only my personal opinions. I don't like the Bible and I see no use for it because I consider it an ancient book that does not apply to the modern age we live in... On top of that it is full or inconsistencies and outright errors. It pretends to be the word of God but it is nothing more than the writings of men. If Moses or Jesus had written the Bible it would be another story altogether, but they didn't. Nobody really knows who wrote most of the Bible and there is no evidence that proves they were divinely inspired.
Of course I am very biased since I am a Baha'i, but don't get me wrong as all Baha'is do not hold my position. Many Baha'is like the Bible and revere it as a holy book. Honestly speaking, my primary beef is not with the Bible itself, it is with Christians and others believe that the Bible is the only holy book ever revealed by God. It annoys me to no end because I believe it is a false and self-serving arrogant belief.
All that said, there are 'parts' of the Bible I do like very much, but those are all in the New Testament. The spiritual teachings of Jesus are wonderful even if Jesus did not write them. Those teachings are all anyone needs to live a spiritual life, but unfortunately that is not what Christianity is all about. It is about the man-made doctrines and dogmas of the church, what Paul said about Jesus, not what Jesus said about Himself.
I believe that Jesus laid the “foundation” for the future Kingdom of God on earth by spiritualizing humanity, and without the foundation Jesus laid with His teachings the Kingdom would not be possible. I believe that Jesus was also the Herald of the Kingdom, the Harbinger who came to announce the coming of the Kingdom. Christians believe that Jesus is the King who will return to earth to build the Kingdom of God on earth but Jesus said:
John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more.
John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
Jesus never claimed to be a king, and He never said he was coming to rule.
This is all a man-made Christian doctrine that came about from misinterpreting the Bible.
John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
These two verses in John 18 completely negate that Jesus is the King of this world or that Jesus will ever come to this world to rule it, and they fit perfectly together with John 17:4 and John 17:11. Jesus came into this world to bear witness unto the truth about God. He did that so there is no more reason for Jesus to come back to this world again. That is why Jesus said “I am no more in the world.”
* * * * * * * * * * * * *
By Kingdom, I am referring to an actual “physical” Kingdom of God in the material world, a sociopolitical system, a new government and a new society, the Kingdom of God on earth. The Kingdom of God that is within us has to exist within the hearts of man in order to prepare them to build the Kingdom of God on earth.
Christians believe that the following verses are about Jesus, but I do not believe that they are referring to Jesus. Jesus never said that He was the mighty God, the everlasting Father, or the Prince of Peace or that He was coming back to earth to build a government. These are claims that Baha'u'llah made.
Isaiah 9:6-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.
From: Christ and Baha'u'llah
The Kingdom in the Bible . . . . . . . . . . . .14
Jesus Christ, Herald of the Kingdom . . . . . . 20
“Jesus created a power of perceiving God which was new, and in order that it might operate clearly, had to cleanse the spirit of man from all worldly encumbrances. Virtue becomes detachment from the world, sin attachment to it. Jesus demanded this sacrifice — losing the life of the world for the life of the spirit, but He made God so attractive, so joyous, loving, powerful, that the Christian was ready to abandon all for Him, and for Christ Who revealed Him.
Thus the tremendous and fearsome Deity of the Old Testament wins men's hearts in the New. We read of the poor sparrow whose fall was watched by a loving Father, of the flower of the field and the bird of the air, and the tenderest stories that ever have won men's hearts — the prodigal son and the good Samaritan.
A new quality of love now characterizes the Kingdom, a love which united the believers not only with God, but with each other, and even extended to enemies and "them that hate you." "That ye love one another" became the test of Christian discipleship.
The supreme ideal of this love was, as shown in John, the relationship between Christ and the Father, and though revealed in the most simple language and the plainest words, stands as the highest expression of Divine love in scripture.
The result was that Jesus' teachings let loose upon the soul and heart of man a spiritual power such as never had been known in the world before. Historians have said that Jesus' teaching has done more to elevate human nature and civilization than all the laws of legislators and the disquisitions of philosophers combined. By releasing religious energies measured to the needs of the hour and the people, He opened the way to the Kingdom of God in men's hearts. New affections and aspirations, hopes and loyalties were brought into being and the whole moral world was carried into a state of flux.”
Christ and Baha'u'llah, Chapter 4
I agree with all that.
The Heart of the Gospel is a book that was written by a Christian clergyman who resigned his orders after 40 years to become a Baha’i. It explains how the Bible is history.
I don't know what you mean by: "the Word (Logos) as it has been expressed by it’s many authors."
In my opinion, nobody should ever tell anyone else how to read and how to listen, or what opinions to hold.
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Secret Chief
Veteran Member
Humans might not be good or flattering, sure, but what of the big man's smiting and destroying? Humans get locked up for that sort of antisocial behaviour.I think fallen humans want violence and God meets us where we are. A huge part of the Bible is about human nature and striving to know God more, so it often includes parts that are not flattering and not good. Just like how He didn't want Israel to have a human king originally, but He allowed it since that's what the people wanted but He still warned them as to what will happen:
Bible Gateway passage: 1 Samuel 8 - New International Version
Israel Asks for a King - When Samuel grew old, he appointed his sons as Israel’s leaders. The name of his firstborn was Joel and the name of his second was Abijah, and they served at Beersheba. But his sons did not follow his ways. They turned aside after dishonest gain and accepted bribes and...www.biblegateway.com
I personally think the Prophets mean more than the Laws of Moses. After all, Moses screwed up and broke one of the tablets and we'll never know what it was. The Bible privileges direct experiences with God over those who just follow things by rote but are hypocrites, lacking faith.
siti
Well-Known Member
Yes...well OK...maybe not all of them...but one of our rams head butts me every time I go near him...he is definitely evil. He's even got big curly horns like the devil.
Secret Chief
Veteran Member
You must be in Hell then?
Augustus
…
Ooo, I’ve seen that.
“Christianity is the biggest cause of violence in human history. After Constantine invented Christianity at the council of Nicaea the formerly peaceful Roman Empire erupted into a raging torrent of conquests. As the toxic tentacles of Jesus spread throughout Europe the Germanic tribes discovered the tribalism that only religious belief can foment and where once there had been science, peace and unity, barbarism reigned. Even the Vikings could not resist the temptations of Christian violence, knowing that Jesus would forgive their sins they tasted blood for the first time, and found out they liked it. It wasn’t until the irreligious Scandinavian model democracies of the late 20th c that they returned to the tranquility of their pre-Christian past.”
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Then who is it up to?
It's a doctrine that's been understood since the beginning. It's not up to anyone. It's in the New Testament in John, the Johannine Letters and the Book of Revelation. The Logos was not invented by Christians and others had used it prior to them. It's not a debated concept.
That's unfortunate if only because it's anachronistic and a misuse of the term.
Sure but we know what we mean when we say it, so it's useful.
Really? What do you mean when you say it. What should other readers take it to mean?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Just because it was understood since the beginning that does not mean it is correct.
What logos means is subject to human interpretation, as is all of the Bible.
How Baha’is Understand Logos Theology
Is Christ God? To understand how the notion of an incarnate God developed, we have to start with Logos theology.
bahaiteachings.org
It is a debatable concept as long as people do not agree on what it means.
siti
Well-Known Member
Not really I don't think...there seem to have been varying views on the literalism of scripture in the early centuries and Origen's teachings were condemned by a number of Church leaders between the late 4th and 6th centuries. Certainly biblical literalism has seen a massive resurgence since the protestant reformation, and the modern Roman Catholic Church would certainly have far more sympathy for Origen's allegorical interpretations than it might have had 1500 years ago, but I don't really think there has ever been general agreement among Christians on the limits and extent of biblical literalism since the time of the apostles*.
* Mind you, both Paul and John clearly interpreted some passages of the OT as figurative, symbolic or allegorical...so I'm not sure why any Christian ever feels the need to stick rigidly to biblical literalism.
Please Lord not this again.
Yes, yes it does. It's literally in the Gospels. The end.
And there is an accepted interpretation of Logos.
People do agree on what it means. That's literally what I've been telling you.