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The Old Testament - Sell It To Me!

Secret Chief

Secret Chief

Veteran Member
If I wanted to promote Christianity why would I use the Old Testament as a source? On cursory looking it seems to involve a lot of violence from various quarters. Shouldn't I try to ignore that half of the bible and hope no-one notices? Put me straight!
 
RestlessSoul

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
I would recommend The Psalms, Proverbs, and Ecclesiastes as among the best bits: And the first 6 verses of Genesis, which must be one of the greatest introductions in all of world literature.
 
exchemist

exchemist

Veteran Member
Secret Chief said:
If I wanted to promote Christianity why would I use the Old Testament as a source? On cursory looking it seems to involve a lot of violence from various quarters. Shouldn't I try to ignore that half of the bible and hope no-one notices? Put me straight!
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If you wanted to promote Christianity I don't understand why you would focus on the Old Testament, when the distinctive ideas of Christianity come from the New Testament.
 
ChristineM

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Secret Chief said:
If I wanted to promote Christianity why would I use the Old Testament as a source? On cursory looking it seems to involve a lot of violence from various quarters. Shouldn't I try to ignore that half of the bible and hope no-one notices? Put me straight!
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Half? More like 85% is OT, 15% NT. And I've come across many Christians who tell me the OT is not Christian so 85% of the bible should be ignored.
 
Secret Chief

Secret Chief

Veteran Member
exchemist said:
If you wanted to promote Christianity I don't understand why you would focus on the Old Testament, when the distinctive ideas of Christianity come from the New Testament.
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I'm not saying focus, I'm saying (or asking) why reference the Old Testament, given the amount of violence seemingly catalogued. All the smiting and destroying. It's 50% of a holy book - pretend it doesn't exist or explain/justify the content is what I'm alluding to. (Obviously as well as the NT).
 
exchemist

exchemist

Veteran Member
Secret Chief said:
I'm not saying focus, I'm saying (or asking) why reference the Old Testament, given the amount of violence seemingly catalogued. All the smiting and destroying. It's 50% of a holy book - pretend it doesn't exist or explain/justify the content is what I'm alluding to. (Obviously as well as the NT).
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Oh I see. Well Christianity grew out of Judaism so there are foundational concepts in the OT that are carried over to Christianity. Things like idea of one God, the creator, who is a personal God with whom one can communicate, that cares for his creation and for humanity, the idea of Man’s inadequate nature, e.g the Fall of Adam and original sin, the episodes of lack of faith shown during Exodus, the ten commandments given to Moses etc.

But the NT puts the OT into context, as an earlier appreciation of God that, being written in parts so much earlier, has in some respects more primitive ideas. For instance, in some of the early books it seems that the God of Israel was seen as just a better God than the gods of other tribes, rather than the only supreme being in existence. But this changes over time. And of course in the NT Jesus gives new guidance which is explicitly different from that derived from the OT.
 
shunyadragon

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Secret Chief said:
If I wanted to promote Christianity why would I use the Old Testament as a source? On cursory looking it seems to involve a lot of violence from various quarters. Shouldn't I try to ignore that half of the bible and hope no-one notices? Put me straight!
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Book of Revelations is pretty violent.

The writers of the NT referred to the OT and believed the Pentateuch was true history. Some of he Psalms are good others, oh well, are problematic.
 
RestlessSoul

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
Secret Chief said:
I'm looking to learn actually.
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This excerpt is from Psalm 18.


I will call upon the LORD, who is worthy to be praised: so shall I be saved from mine enemies.

4.The sorrows of death compassed me, and the floods of ungodly men made me afraid.

5.The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me.

6.In my distress I called upon the LORD, and cried unto my God: he heard my voice out of his temple, and my cry came before him, even into his ears.

7.Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations also of the hills moved and were shaken, because he was wroth.

8.There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.

9.He bowed the heavens also, and came down: and darkness was under his feet.

10.And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: yea, he did fly upon the wings of the wind.

11.He made darkness his secret place; his pavilion round about him were dark waters and thick clouds of the skies.

12.At the brightness that was before him his thick clouds passed, hail stones and coals of fire.

13.The LORD also thundered in the heavens, and the Highest gave his voice; hail stones and coals of fire.

14.Yea, he sent out his arrows, and scattered them; and he shot out lightnings, and discomfited them.

15.Then the channels of waters were seen, and the foundations of the world were discovered at thy rebuke, O LORD, at the blast of the breath of thy nostrils.


Where else can you find poetry like this, written around two millennia before John Milton?

Milton, the polymath, the towering genius of 17th century English verse, was definitely influenced by the OT in general, and The Psalms in particular. For a (particular, by no means universal) Christian perspective on The Bible as a unitary narrative, I highly recommend Milton's Paradise Lost.

Victor Hugo (I think) said, "England has two books; the King James Bible, and Shakespeare. The Bible made England, but England made Shakespeare". He neglected to mention John Milton; who wrote only very shortly after Shakespeare and the KJV, and imo just about eclipsed both for linguistic majesty and drama.
 
Secret Chief

Secret Chief

Veteran Member
RestlessSoul said:
This excerpt is from Psalm 18.


I will call upon the LORD, who is worthy to be praised: so shall I be saved from mine enemies.

4.The sorrows of death compassed me, and the floods of ungodly men made me afraid.

5.The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me.

6.In my distress I called upon the LORD, and cried unto my God: he heard my voice out of his temple, and my cry came before him, even into his ears.

7.Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations also of the hills moved and were shaken, because he was wroth.

8.There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.

9.He bowed the heavens also, and came down: and darkness was under his feet.

10.And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: yea, he did fly upon the wings of the wind.

11.He made darkness his secret place; his pavilion round about him were dark waters and thick clouds of the skies.

12.At the brightness that was before him his thick clouds passed, hail stones and coals of fire.

13.The LORD also thundered in the heavens, and the Highest gave his voice; hail stones and coals of fire.

14.Yea, he sent out his arrows, and scattered them; and he shot out lightnings, and discomfited them.

15.Then the channels of waters were seen, and the foundations of the world were discovered at thy rebuke, O LORD, at the blast of the breath of thy nostrils.


Where else can you find poetry like this, written around two millennia before John Milton?

Milton, the polymath, the towering genius of 17th century English verse, was definitely influenced by the OT in general, and The Psalms in particular. For a (particular, by no means universal) Christian perspective on The Bible as a unitary narrative, I highly recommend Milton's Paradise Lost.

Victor Hugo (I think) said, "England has two books; the King James Bible, and Shakespeare. The Bible made England, but England made Shakespeare". He neglected to mention John Milton; who wrote only very shortly after Shakespeare and the KJV, and imo just about eclipsed both for linguistic majesty and drama.
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Ok, and what about the violence referred to in my OP?
 
RestlessSoul

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
Secret Chief said:
Ok, and what about the violence referred to in my OP?
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Yeah, that's YHWH; described by Carl Jung as a God-concept containing opposites in undivided form. Not easily reconciled with the loving father Christ referred to in The Gospels. Although the Word (Logos) referred to in the opening verse of John's Gospel (a conscious echo of the opening verses of Genesis), may be taken to mean the entirety of cosmic order, darkness as well as light.

Life, the universe and everything, is full of contradiction and paradox, right? Who ever said it would all make sense to us, regardless of which apples we ate?
 
Secret Chief

Secret Chief

Veteran Member
RestlessSoul said:
Yeah, that's YHWH; described by Carl Jung as a God-concept containing opposites in undivided form. Not easily reconciled with the loving father Christ referred to in The Gospels. Although the Word (Logos) referred to in the opening verse of John's Gospel (a conscious echo of the opening verses of Genesis), may be taken to mean the entirety of cosmic order, darkness as well as light.

Life, the universe and everything, is full of contradiction and paradox, right? Who ever said it would all make sense to us, regardless of which apples we ate?
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I'm just struggling to see why anybody would want to sign up to a team where the captain is afflicted with ASPD.
 
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