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The Order of Incarnation

Random

Well-Known Member
During a debate the other day with a friend about Roman Catholicism, it was suggested to me that the reason Reincarnation was left out of the Bible was not just because it (seemingly..) conflicted with the doctrine of general Resurrection, but because the order of incarnation adopted by the Church in their metaphysical scheme of things placed women in a blatantly inferior position (!).

Going on to explain that Pauline Christianity reflected Paul's metaphysical schemata which was adpoted wholesale from the Indian mystical tradition, he claimed that the big secret was the order of Incarnations that the soul went through, and that in this order the soul went through mineral, plant and animal forms before becoming a Woman - and thence finally, at the pinacle of temporal existence, a Man. Only God was above Man (naturally..).

Thus it was claimed that every Man alive had once been incarnate as a Woman, and that since Woman was second last behind Man (and God) in the order of a progressively more powerful and more advanced incarnational cycle, her inferiority was therefore certain and the Church's sexism (and that of the West in general) thoroughly justified - for if Woman were equal to or better than Man, she would either be last in the series (under God but above Man) or God would have devised a different sort of way than Reincarnation to establish the continuity of the soul thru its changes in form.

It was thus said that this is what the RC Church secretly believes, because it was what Paul believed.

My question is, if it were true that to become a Man one would have to graduate from the inferior female Womanly state first, how would that being a "fact" change the world? How would it affect your own view of the sexes? More generally, what do you think of what was claimed above?

I personally am highly dubious about it, but unsure. It certainly can seem plausible if you think about it in a certain light. But regardless, I don't like it one bit.
 

Troublemane

Well-Known Member
So, they're saying that previous lives determine our XY or XX chromosomal make-up? How can that be?

My personal belief is that it is a choice made by the spirit, based on what the spirit (potential being) wishes to experience/accomplish in life. :angel2:
 

Heartfelt

Member
During a debate the other day with a friend about Roman Catholicism, it was suggested to me that the reason Reincarnation was left out of the Bible was not just because it (seemingly..) conflicted with the doctrine of general Resurrection, but because the order of incarnation adopted by the Church in their metaphysical scheme of things placed women in a blatantly inferior position (!).

Going on to explain that Pauline Christianity reflected Paul's metaphysical schemata which was adpoted wholesale from the Indian mystical tradition, he claimed that the big secret was the order of Incarnations that the soul went through, and that in this order the soul went through mineral, plant and animal forms before becoming a Woman - and thence finally, at the pinacle of temporal existence, a Man. Only God was above Man (naturally..).

Thus it was claimed that every Man alive had once been incarnate as a Woman, and that since Woman was second last behind Man (and God) in the order of a progressively more powerful and more advanced incarnational cycle, her inferiority was therefore certain and the Church's sexism (and that of the West in general) thoroughly justified - for if Woman were equal to or better than Man, she would either be last in the series (under God but above Man) or God would have devised a different sort of way than Reincarnation to establish the continuity of the soul thru its changes in form.

It was thus said that this is what the RC Church secretly believes, because it was what Paul believed.

My question is, if it were true that to become a Man one would have to graduate from the inferior female Womanly state first, how would that being a "fact" change the world? How would it affect your own view of the sexes? More generally, what do you think of what was claimed above?

I personally am highly dubious about it, but unsure. It certainly can seem plausible if you think about it in a certain light. But regardless, I don't like it one bit.


(I'm old so perhaps I missed something)..:>)
First of all Man is NOT just under God...we are a little lower than the angels-man wise that is...then woman who was created from man's side is under man but walks beside man cuz Eve took that forbidden fruit from the tree and gave it to Adam...anyway I don't really believe in reincarnation mostly because it says in scripture... it is appointed unto man "ONCE" to die then the judgement...therefore there can be no reincarnation...the general idea of reincarnation I feel came out of fearfulness in pagan belief...someone was always afraid that so-and-so was back from the dead...just to get them....this was not what I feel was religious teachings at all...what I feel it is, is evil possesion as just another way to stir up doubt in ones mind...Satan has the ability to send demonic spirits to make some believe things are one way when logic would tell them otherwise if they weren't being blinded through Satanic attack...but this is just my personal opinion for whatever it may be worth...:)
 

Random

Well-Known Member
So, they're saying that previous lives determine our XY or XX chromosomal make-up? How can that be?

Eh, biology didn't really enter into it. But you could have a point...I don't know.

Troublemane said:
My personal belief is that it is a choice made by the spirit, based on what the spirit (potential being) wishes to experience/accomplish in life. :angel2:

Well yeah, in terms of reincarnation talk, choice is the great leveller.
 

chlotilde

Madame Curie
It was thus said that this is what the RC Church secretly believes, because it was what Paul believed.
Dang, the secret's finally out...joking.
I've never read anything about what you wrote in any of my books, so I can't even begin to know how to answer your question.

chlo
 
a man crawls out of the bosom of a woman and looks at the woman as less than he
surely that man is a fool
now a woman was deceive and a man sinned willingly
the woman as it is written was called eve and the man was said to be called adam
now for me i am satisified i did not put these words to paper or stone for the first time but only recount what some unknown man once wrote
now to whom is it lost that the man is less than the woman
in soulfull will power
do men come forth from men
nay
so then the man can not be more than the woman
rather let it be written that unless a man can prove he is prefect and does not sin then he has not yet become the role model for a women
and while she was ignorant of sin the man is not
then who is the more foolish of the two
surely it is the man
now i am a man that desires to be perfect
but to become perfect i must understand that as i am i should hate myself for in me there is no perfect thing
and once i am perfect then i am able to advise any women to do as i have done
so then what irritates a woman is i am not perfect and i should be for while she was deceived she was still perfect......that is without sin
and i with understanding left perfection to grasp sin(i speak as adam)
woe is me
iamnothing0
 

Random

Well-Known Member
Disappointed this didn't hit. Kind of started it with other popular threads in mind, themed upon man as spiritual head of the family etc...

Oh well. Can't count on RF to see a good idea when one is presented, I suppose.
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
The RCC does not teach this, and if it did, I would disagree vehemently, and I would most assuredly not be a part of it...
 

Luminous

non-existential luminary
(I'm old so perhaps I missed something)..:>)
First of all Man is NOT just under God...we are a little lower than the angels-man wise that is...then woman who was created from man's side is under man but walks beside man cuz Eve took that forbidden fruit from the tree and gave it to Adam...anyway I don't really believe in reincarnation mostly because it says in scripture... it is appointed unto man "ONCE" to die then the judgement...therefore there can be no reincarnation...the general idea of reincarnation I feel came out of fearfulness in pagan belief...someone was always afraid that so-and-so was back from the dead...just to get them....this was not what I feel was religious teachings at all...what I feel it is, is evil possesion as just another way to stir up doubt in ones mind...Satan has the ability to send demonic spirits to make some believe things are one way when logic would tell them otherwise if they weren't being blinded through Satanic attack...but this is just my personal opinion for whatever it may be worth...:)
God's word of obidience and a lower status are not just from genesis, they are also from other scripture so 'God' considers women as inferior to men even now. unless you pick and chose the scripture parts you believe. which everyone does anyway.
 

Luminous

non-existential luminary
The RCC does not teach this, and if it did, I would disagree vehemently, and I would most assuredly not be a part of it...
The RCC hardly teaches their bible at all. they just repeat the parts that will keep people submisive to the church or turn for the church/religion. Or they say, "oh; it really doesn't really means what you think it means, it means what I SAY it means."
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
The RCC hardly teaches their bible at all.
Considering the RCC, in conjuction with the Orthodox churches canonized the Bible... I would disagree...

church/religion. Or they say, "oh; it really doesn't really means what you think it means, it means what I SAY it means."
So... Church leaders have interpretations... I fail to see the diffence with any other denomination...
 

Darz

Member
My question is, if it were true that to become a Man one would have to graduate from the inferior female Womanly state first, how would that being a "fact" change the world? How would it affect your own view of the sexes? More generally, what do you think of what was claimed above?

I'm kind of confused as to why you put quotations around the word fact. Are you referring to "fact" as a religious fact (not really a fact and can be contested)? Or are you referring to it as a genuine fact, such as the fact that we are alive?

As for the RCC secretly believing that the spirit goes through numerous incarnations...that's incredibly hard to believe. The Bible has already been used by countless generations to justify women's subservience to men. For much of the past, if there was something else that would strengthen that belief I seriously doubt they would hide it away.

By the way, where did the information come from that said Paul believed in incarnation?

Considering the RCC, in conjuction with the Orthodox churches canonized the Bible... I would disagree...

In my experience, the RCC does not put the same amount of importance on the Bible compared to some other Christian denominations. For instance, while I was a part of the RCC I was never pressured to read the Bible. There doesn't seem to be any pressure or importance put on reading the Bible as a lay member. I'd turn to my Catholic Catechism instead of the Bible when I was searching for answers.
 
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