The Origin of Complex Life Forms and Their Purpose

[leibowde84]

First of all I don't doubt that where humans are concerned. Humans were created on Day 6, Genesis leaves no room for ape-like human-like creatures. There is no way I would ever believe any ape turned into a man, no matter how many millions of years you care to wait for it to happen.

So, you start with the Genesis creation story as being true, and anything that goes against the claims in that story, you refuse to believe? Or is it just that no matter how much evidence is presented, you refuse to believe that we share a common ancestor with orangutans, gorillas, and chimpanzees?
Btw, humans are apes. We are members of the "Great Apes" (a.k.a. "hominids") subsection of primates.

 

[jhwatts]

You are forgetting that all life is related on earth. There is a common ancestor to all life on this planet. So, it shouldn't be surprising that certain traits exist in more than one species.

Yes. It was a loaded question.

 

[Runewolf1973]

First of all I don't doubt that where humans are concerned. Humans were created on Day 6, Genesis leaves no room for ape-like human-like creatures. There is no way I would ever believe any ape turned into a man, no matter how many millions of years you care to wait for it to happen.

But yet you somehow feel that a fantastical, all-powerful, all-knowing, all-seeing God that lives in the sky performing magic tricks with his hands to create humans instantly out of dust is more believable...

 

[Vee]

Cool. Here is the article I would like to discuss with you. It's a review article on the progress made in creating living cells from scratch in the lab. Please check if you have full access or not. But no rush.
Artificial Cells: Synthetic Compartments with Life-like Functionality and Adaptivity

Thank you for that. It was very interesting. I actually read it twice

This article highlights very well what is involved in producing a cell and how complex and challenging putting all those systems together can be. They make it very clear why creating a cell from scratch is so difficult even with scientists designing and controlling the experiments.

I hope science will eventually be able to advance in this field because that could be a great help to cure diseases and genetic issues, but it seems we are still very far away from that possibility. Like they say, it is a very ambitious project. They're still trying to create a functioning , living cell and once they nail that one they'll have to start thinking about tissues, organs, etc.

This doesn’t motivate me to believe in evolution any more than before, on the contrary, it is in sync with what I already knew in terms of the complexity of life and the amount of coincidences that would have taken place for it to appear just like that, as a result of an uncontrolled chemical reaction of non-living elements, but I really hope these experiments and developments scientists are working on will help improve technology and medicine.

Any more developments you find please let me know.

 

[metis]

This article highlights very well what is involved in producing a cell and how complex and challenging putting all those systems together can be.

But much with the eye, we shouldn't assume that the first cells were likely to be that complex. After almost 4 billion years of evolution, a lotta changes can happen.

 

[sayak83]

Thank you for that. It was very interesting. I actually read it twice

This article highlights very well what is involved in producing a cell and how complex and challenging putting all those systems together can be. They make it very clear why creating a cell from scratch is so difficult even with scientists designing and controlling the experiments.

I hope science will eventually be able to advance in this field because that could be a great help to cure diseases and genetic issues, but it seems we are still very far away from that possibility. Like they say, it is a very ambitious project. They're still trying to create a functioning , living cell and once they nail that one they'll have to start thinking about tissues, organs, etc.

This doesn’t motivate me to believe in evolution any more than before, on the contrary, it is in sync with what I already knew in terms of the complexity of life and the amount of coincidences that would have taken place for it to appear just like that, as a result of an uncontrolled chemical reaction of non-living elements, but I really hope these experiments and developments scientists are working on will help improve technology and medicine.

Any more developments you find please let me know.

Would you say that the paper at least establishes that creating a cell from scratch in the lab is an achievable goal of science? Also that living cells, no matter how complex their chemistry may be, can be synthesized from non-living hydro-carbon compounds without the need of any additional esoteric vital force or spiritual substance?

 

[osgart]

is evolution an intelligent method of a creator though?

I

 

[SalixIncendium]

is evolution an intelligent method of a creator though?

I

Can you expound on this premise?

 

[Vee]

Would you say that the paper at least establishes that creating a cell from scratch in the lab is an achievable goal of science? Also that living cells, no matter how complex their chemistry may be, can be synthesized from non-living hydro-carbon compounds without the need of any additional esoteric vital force or spiritual substance?

I am inclined to say yes but since it hasn't been successfully done yet I don't want to jump to conclusions. They seem to be heading in the right direction and I'll be looking forward to learn about their progress.

 

[DavidFirth]

They share DNA

That doesn't prove anything. And they have similar or the same genes, not the same DNA

 

[Vee]

But much with the eye, we shouldn't assume that the first cells were likely to be that complex. After almost 4 billion years of evolution, a lotta changes can happen.

Even if they weren't as complex as today, at the very minimum they had to:
- Get nutrients
- Get energy
- Remove waste products
- Grow
- Reproduce
- Adapt to their environment

This alone requires a great degree of complexity.

 

[sayak83]

I am inclined to say yes but since it hasn't been successfully done yet I don't want to jump to conclusions. They seem to be heading in the right direction and I'll be looking forward to learn about their progress.

Cool. Here is a recent review paper on recent progress on abiogenesis in plausible early Earth conditions. Would be interested to hear what you think. Best

The RNA World as a Model System to Study the Origin of Life - ScienceDirect

 

[osgart]

Can you expound on this premise?

intelligent cause is how it strikes me as real. DNA is information, bodies function according to their purpose.

it's a big stretch for me to believe that natural selection isn't an intelligent force of some kind. function upon function, trial and error things work for the purpose of survival.

if it was all brute indifferent fact their would be no body logic.

 

[Sapiens]

intelligent cause is how it strikes me as real. DNA is information, bodies function according to their purpose.

it's a big stretch for me to believe that natural selection isn't an intelligent force of some kind. function upon function, trial and error things work for the purpose of survival.

if it was all brute indifferent fact their would be no body logic.

You understand nothing of how Evolution works. Start with the U.C. Berkeley Sites: Welcome to Evolution 101!

 

[Milton Platt]

That doesn't prove anything. And they have similar or the same genes, not the same DNA

You are correct....that one single item does not prove anything. fortunately there are many lines of inquiry that all seem to point to the same conclusion.

 

[DavidFirth]

You are correct....that one single item does not prove anything. fortunately there are many lines of inquiry that all seem to point to the same conclusion.

And that's why scientists make the conclusion they do.

 

[Milton Platt]

And that's why scientists make the conclusion they do.

Wait.....are we agreeing??? How the hell can we have an argument if we agree??? LOL

 

[DavidFirth]

Wait.....are we agreeing??? How the hell can we have an argument if we agree??? LOL

Well, the scientists and me don't come to the same conclusions.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Even if they weren't as complex as today, at the very minimum they had to:
- Get nutrients
- Get energy
- Remove waste products
- Grow
- Reproduce
- Adapt to their environment

This alone requires a great degree of complexity.

It would take a lot of biochemistry to talk about all of these at length, but chemistry is complicated all on its own. However, the formation of the first cell or cell like self replicators is not that sophisticated, biologically speaking. You don't even need DNA to get all of that done. You don't need a proper cell membrane, you don't need organelles. We just need a simple self replicator like RNA or a polypeptide chain encapsulated in the lipid bilayer vesticle. Which looks something like this:

Biologically speaking this is real simple stuff. The only reason you don't see these forming today is because (1) the natural environment they would have formed in has chemically changed dramatically and (2) they would ve bringing a club to a nuke party. They are so simple that they would be out-competed and absorbed by modern organic cells.

 

[metis]

Even if they weren't as complex as today, at the very minimum they had to:
- Get nutrients
- Get energy
- Remove waste products
- Grow
- Reproduce
- Adapt to their environment

This alone requires a great degree of complexity.

Yes, but even that process could be gradual to a certain degree.

For example, let's take "reproduction". There are what are called "replicating molecules" that, much like crystal, tend to split along even lines.

With "grow", reactions can cause certain molecules to grow.

Etc.

One thing is clear, however, and that is that such a development of life from non-life would be a extremely rare occurrence if it happened without being "created", so we could be talking about a one shot in trillions of chances. However, with the probably trillions of chemical reactions occurring probably daily here on Earth, it is at least hypothetically possible.

Does this somehow prove that this is actually what happened? Of course not, so I reserve judgement.