The origins of religious belief

[Mock Turtle]

So, where might the origins have been for there ever being even the thought that some external 'actor' (other than any humans or proto-humans) being involved, firstly, in influencing or controlling the lives of any, and secondly, as to having any kind of influence or power over the material world and their environment?

Explanations?

Bonus question - when would this have occurred?

 

[tayla]

So, where might the origins have been for there ever being even the thought that some external 'actor' (other than any humans or proto-humans) being involved, firstly, in influencing or controlling the lives of any, and secondly, as to having any kind of influence or power over the material world and their environment?

Explanations?

Bonus question - when would this have occurred?

Certainly by 200,000 years ago when modern humans appeared. Perhaps earlier since some other prehuman species seem to have had thought deep thoughts based on cave art and burial practices.

 

[qaz]

fear of death. remove the promise of immortality from any religious belief and it will lose the most of its charisma, especiallly the abrahamic ones.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Certainly by 200,000 years ago when modern humans appeared. Perhaps earlier since some other prehuman species seem to have had thought deep thoughts based on cave art and burial practices.

Perhaps - I have to dispute the cave art, since I see such things as being more like a library or as teaching aids, as to hunting that upon which they depended for their survival.

 

[PureX]

So, where might the origins have been for there ever being even the thought that some external 'actor' (other than any humans or proto-humans) being involved, firstly, in influencing or controlling the lives of any, and secondly, as to having any kind of influence or power over the material world and their environment?

Explanations?

Bonus question - when would this have occurred?

Upon witnessing the death of a living being (animal, man, whatever) it becomes obvious that some animating force that was in the being, has left it, unseen. Leaving the witnesses to conclude that there is some sort of invisible spirit, or force, within all living things, that can exit that thing and exist in the world, unseen. And can then perhaps inhabit other life forms, as witnessed by humans and animals exhibiting behavioral anomalies caused by trauma and illness unknown to the witnesses. Thus leading them to presume it the result of "spirit possession". And add to this the overwhelmingly inexplicable nature, of nature itself, to we early humans, and the human's natural fear of this, and you have a ready recipe for "super-spirits" that one could perhaps appease and ingratiate oneself with in some way, to gain favor in happenstance, And you have created the realm of the gods.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Upon witnessing the death of a living being (animal, man, whatever) it becomes obvious that some animating force that was in the being, has left it, unseen. Leaving the witnesses to conclude that there is some sort of invisible spirit, or force, within all living things, that can exit that thing and exist in the world, unseen. And can then perhaps inhabit other life forms, as witnessed by humans and animals exhibiting behavioral anomalies, caused by trauma and illness unknown to the witnesses. Thus leading them to presume "spirit possession". And add to this the overwhelmingly inexplicable nature, of nature, and the human's natural feel of this, and you have a ready recipe for "super-spirits" that one could perhaps appease in some way, to gain favor in happenstance.

I'm sorry I find this a bit fanciful - it is hardly 'obvious'. What might be 'obvious' was that they died, that is all.

 

[PureX]

I'm sorry I find this a bit fanciful - it is hardly 'obvious'. What might be 'obvious' was that they died, that is all.

The evidence from our earliest times on Earth shows that we humans believed in these "spirits". We thanked them after the hunt for allowing us to have their bodies, for food. We 'worshipped' them to try and gain their cooperation before the next hunt. This is not "whimsy". This is the reality of early, primitive mankind.

 

[Mock Turtle]

The evidence from our earliest times on Earth shows that we humans believed in these "spirits". We thanked them after the hunt for allowing us to have their bodies, for food. We 'worshipped' them to try and gain their cooperation before the next hunt. This is not "whimsy". This is the reality of early, primitive mankind.

Earlier than this? As I asked - when and why was the first thought, and why did it occur?

 

[Willamena]

fear of death. remove the promise of immortality from any religious belief and it will lose the most of its charisma, especiallly the abrahamic ones.

This is over simplified, though, to the point of not answering the question in the OP: Why should we fear death? And how, when we fear death, does that lead to a magical man behind the scenes saving us?

I realize it's a MUCH large discussion, but I think that's what this thread is asking for.

 

[Willamena]

Upon witnessing the death of a living being (animal, man, whatever) it becomes obvious that some animating force that was in the being, has left it, unseen. Leaving the witnesses to conclude that there is some sort of invisible spirit, or force, within all living things, that can exit that thing and exist in the world, unseen. And can then perhaps inhabit other life forms, as witnessed by humans and animals exhibiting behavioral anomalies caused by trauma and illness unknown to the witnesses. Thus leading them to presume it the result of "spirit possession". And add to this the overwhelmingly inexplicable nature, of nature itself, to we early humans, and the human's natural fear of this, and you have a ready recipe for "super-spirits" that one could perhaps appease and ingratiate oneself with in some way, to gain favor in happenstance, And you have created the realm of the gods.

Do you imagine that early humans were childlike, then, and couldn't tell the difference between a made-up story and reality?

 

[qaz]

This is over simplified, though, to the point of not answering the question in the OP: Why should we fear death? And how, when we fear death, does that lead to a magical man behind the scenes saving us?

I realize it's a MUCH large discussion, but I think that's what this thread is asking for.

if i tell you a story which ends with the main character suddenly turning a corner and never coming back again, what would you think of my abilities as a storyteller? so it is our life. we don't like how it ends, therefore we need to make up a more rational conclusion. once you have created the idea of the afterlife (which is the core belief of any primitive, shamanic religion), you can apply a similar teleological meaning to natural phenomena. then, the nile overflows IN ORDER TO fertilize our fields, the spring goes away BECAUSE the winter kidnaps her, et cetera.
the actual, clear, well-defined anthropomorphism is a step further towards a consistent explenation of experience. but the first afflatus is fear and solitude.

 

[PureX]

Earlier than this? As I asked - when and why was the first thought, and why did it occur?

Why does any thought occur? And how could anyone possibly know when a thought occurred first? Maybe it occurred simultaneously among a number of humans. And when did we actually become "human", anyway? Maybe it's our having these thoughts that define us as "human".

Just sayin'.

 

[PureX]

Do you imagine that early humans were childlike, then, and couldn't tell the difference between a made-up story and reality?

No one said anything about a story. They witnessed the life force leave the body, but could not see where it went. So they concluded that it was an 'invisible' force, or "spirit". And that it went into the air. And if it could leave one body perhaps it could enter another. Which explained, for them, some manifestations of illness, and various behavioral anomalies. These were not stores. They were actual experiences, and the conclusions that primitive people all over the world drew from them. And still do in some remote places.

 

[qaz]

Do you imagine that early humans were childlike, then, and couldn't tell the difference between a made-up story and reality?

well, the average life expectancy until the bronze age was 25. do you know how many 40 years old men ,after 5.000 years of civilization since then, believe in the most idiotic absurdities?

 

[Mock Turtle]

Why does any thought occur? And how could anyone possibly know when a thought occurred first? Maybe it occurred simultaneously among a number of humans. And when did we actually become "human", anyway? Maybe it's our having these thoughts that define us as "human".

Just sayin'.

Quite possibly. But I would like to have opinions as to why any being would have even thought of such a thing. We do tend to anthropomorphize a little even with regards our ancestors such that we might not be able to place ourselves in their lives and as to how they might have even thought such a thing. It bothers me.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Long ago, before written language and agriculture, and everything else we think of as "civilization."

People saw that things happened. Sometimes the immediate cause was immediately visible, but sometimes it was not. However, it was of immense practical benefit to be able to visualize/imagine things that caused things...that set of tracks, for example, was caused by several lions...they were headed north, so we'd probably better head south. That scat and tracks were left by a small herd of wildebeest...if we want dinner today, we'd better follow them and be ready to hunt...Oh, look, here's the remains of a fire and some shelters, that was probably our Cousin Mel and his family...

From that, it's only a skip, hop and jump to seeing other entities that are responsible for things happening...and engaging in ritual behaviors seen as improving survival of the group...

 

[David T]

So, where might the origins have been for there ever being even the thought that some external 'actor' (other than any humans or proto-humans) being involved, firstly, in influencing or controlling the lives of any, and secondly, as to having any kind of influence or power over the material world and their environment?

Explanations?

Bonus question - when would this have occurred?

This is like asking "what are the origins of sex?" Its a valid question but I would say you have stretch back at least 4 billion years interpersonally. It's like asking how old am i? I could say 62 but evolution says no much older. The Christians text, in spite of modern interpretive nonsense pushes it back to 14 billion years.

So yea the question can be asked, but the answer is dependent upon a whole bunch of factors. It's like to ask when did hurricanes start?

Religion is not a separate from nature, its articulated today as being separate from nature, But that articulation is very very very modern.

So when we "believe" that the bible is a science text, some literally believe it to be, others believe It's old science and therefore invalid. Others are agnostic about it. I say it's about what we call the psyche today. Since scientific empirical evidence points to psychology as collectively half wits with a few gems, I would say let's drink some beer, play music laugh at our absurdities because Nature is big we are small, and we need to seek the gems.

 

[Mister Emu]

Our brain is "wired" to have transcendental/spiritual experiences. Whether you believe that is just coincidence or not is up to you. Either way, you could erase all religious knowledge and we would soon again have it.

 

[PureX]

Quite possibly. But I would like to have opinions as to why any being would have even thought of such a thing. We do tend to anthropomorphize a little even with regards our ancestors such that we might not be able to place ourselves in their lives and as to how they might have even thought such a thing. It bothers me.

We humans have very active imaginations. We can imagine various possible explanations for any witnessed phenomena. And we tend to anthropomorphize phenomena as a way of trying to better understand (and thereby, control) them.

 

[Vinayaka]

When you sit down and quiet the mind, stuff happens. As you do this repeatedly, more stuff happens. Truths are discovered from within. Humans, throughout the ages, pondered where this process would lead to. So they did it ages ago, and still do. It's not a 'thinking' process.