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The OT today

Shermana

Shermana

Heretic
CMike said:
As if I care what the "great secular scholors say...

The Torah is from G-D .It's perfect.

Prophets were written by the prophets.

Psalms were mainly written by King David.
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That's fine, but I'm demonstrating for other more objective minded people that there are flaws.

Are you aware that the DSS version of Jeremiah is shorter than the official one?

How do you determine which one is right?

I don't deny the Jeremiah wrote it, or that the Prophets wrote their respective books. What I deny is that they are all error and interpolation free in their current transmissions.

Why do you believe that the Torah is perfectly preserved? Because the Rabbis said so? Should we dismiss all the "secular scholors" just because the Rabbis have pushed the idea that the Masoretic text is perfectly transmitted?

Do you know that there are errors in the Hebrew text transmissions like the Leningrad Codex which make no grammatical sense that even the Rabbis acknowledge?

I don't really care whether you accept it personally or not, but I fail to see how such a view is any better than Christians who think the NT is perfect.
 
Shermana

Shermana

Heretic
CMike said:
Context

21. And saviors shall ascend Mt. Zion to judge the mountain of Esau, and the Lord shall have the kingdom.

Meanings leaders of Israel will get retribution against Esau for what they did to Israel.

It has nothing to do with saving people from sin, saving their soul, or any other kind of saving that jesus is supposed have done.

Only G-D does that.
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The context is exactly what I'm saying. God sends saviors. Jesus was a savior that God sent. The word used in Obadiah 1:21 is "Savior" for a reason, it is to bring retribution upon those who are oppressing God's people and word. Likewise, Jesus was the savior to judge and bring retribution upon those who were defiling God's word and to rescue the people from their deviations from the Torah and Pure obedience to what was the Original teaching. That's the context of the story at least.
 
B

Benoni

Well-Known Member
Shermana said:
The context is exactly what I'm saying. God sends saviors. Jesus was a savior that God sent. The word used in Obadiah 1:21 is "Savior" for a reason, it is to bring retribution upon those who are oppressing God's people and word. Likewise, Jesus was the savior to judge and bring retribution upon those who were defiling God's word and to rescue the people from their deviations from the Torah and Pure obedience to what was the Original teaching. That's the context of the story at least.
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Amen but who are the saviors.
 
CMike

CMike

Well-Known Member
Shermana said:
That's fine, but I'm demonstrating for other more objective minded people that there are flaws.

Are you aware that the DSS version of Jeremiah is shorter than the official one?

How do you determine which one is right?

I don't deny the Jeremiah wrote it, or that the Prophets wrote their respective books. What I deny is that they are all error and interpolation free in their current transmissions.

Why do you believe that the Torah is perfectly preserved? Because the Rabbis said so? Should we dismiss all the "secular scholors" just because the Rabbis have pushed the idea that the Masoretic text is perfectly transmitted?

Do you know that there are errors in the Hebrew text transmissions like the Leningrad Codex which make no grammatical sense that even the Rabbis acknowledge?

I don't really care whether you accept it personally or not, but I fail to see how such a view is any better than Christians who think the NT is perfect.
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Prophets isn't perfect. It was written by prophets in a poetic and flowerly language, which makes it vulnerable for twisting around.

The five books of Moses is from G-D. Just because "secular scholors" don't understand it doesn't mean it's not perfect, it just means that they don't understand it.

There are no errors in the Torah.
 
CMike

CMike

Well-Known Member
Shermana said:
The context is exactly what I'm saying. God sends saviors. Jesus was a savior that God sent. The word used in Obadiah 1:21 is "Savior" for a reason, it is to bring retribution upon those who are oppressing God's people and word. Likewise, Jesus was the savior to judge and bring retribution upon those who were defiling God's word and to rescue the people from their deviations from the Torah and Pure obedience to what was the Original teaching. That's the context of the story at least.
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That's just plain silly.

What was meant by Obadiah was that the military will attack Esau. They will be saviors.

Once again that is far different than saving someone from sin, or their soul.

The only person who can do that is G-D.

Jesus committed a grave sin by claming to have divine power.
 
Shermana

Shermana

Heretic
CMike said:
Prophets isn't perfect. It was written by prophets in a poetic and flowerly language, which makes it vulnerable for twisting around.

The five books of Moses is from G-D. Just because "secular scholors" don't understand it doesn't mean it's not perfect, it just means that they don't understand it.

There are no errors in the Torah.
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How is that any different from Christians who deny that the NT has errors in it?
 
DavyCrocket2003

DavyCrocket2003

Well-Known Member
Benoni said:
If the NT has errors which is does. Is this not God's will?
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Is it God's will for us to have access to accurate information about him?

Is it God's will for us to learn about him and grow closer to him and learn how we can be saved? God's will does not overrule the will of his children. As in "God will force no man to heaven."

When God's people collectively turn their backs on him, he leaves them to their choices. When they distort and destroy his word, he allows it to happen.

Does he leave them in darkness with no hope or source of light? NO. Absolutely not. Whenever he finds a people willing to be lead by his hand, he will reach out to them. Even if he has to drag them through the desert for 40 years because they are so disobedient.
 
B

Benoni

Well-Known Member
DavyCrocket2003 said:
Is it God's will for us to have access to accurate information about him?

Is it God's will for us to learn about him and grow closer to him and learn how we can be saved? God's will does not overrule the will of his children. As in "God will force no man to heaven."

When God's people collectively turn their backs on him, he leaves them to their choices. When they distort and destroy his word, he allows it to happen.

Does he leave them in darkness with no hope or source of light? NO. Absolutely not. Whenever he finds a people willing to be lead by his hand, he will reach out to them. Even if he has to drag them through the desert for 40 years because they are so disobedient.
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You have the drag part right the rest is based on your opinion and not what God’s Word declares.
You say “it God's will for us to have access to accurate information about him?” Chapter and verse please? Notice I am using God word to back what I say; something most religions think they do but when you dig a bit deeper you find out usually its some man made opinion just like your statement with no scriptural backing. If God did not hide his word then why is the word mystery used over 20 times in the NT??? The word mystery in the Greek means sacred secret. God always hides his deepness from carnal man that is why God’s people are so confused about the book of revelation
No where does it say man has a choice for his own salvation; Adam did not have a choice and neither do we. The Bible teaches totally to the contrary of freewill and choice when it comes to salvation.
 
B

Benoni

Well-Known Member
CMike said:
People have free will.

quote]



Show me where carnal man has freewill unto salvation??? Man is a slave to sin, is born in sin and man is dead in trespasses and it is his nature to totally reject all things of God; man has no choice or freewill to choose his own salvation; this is a religious myth and not a scriptural act; if anything the Bible teaches it is God who draws; it is Jesus that saves not mans carnal mind believing on by its own will.


The word freewill or choice are not found anywhere in the NT when it comes to someone freely choosing his own salvation. The word freewill is not even found in the Bible except for the Freewill Offering in the OT; which has nothing to do with salvation even as an example. God saves us by His grace, the and only then can carnal man have faith to believe in God and be saved.


In John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw (Gk(drag) and I will add forces him: and I will raise him up at the last day. and John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw (Gk(drag) all men unto me as you so wisely posted. The word draw is the Greek word from Strong’s 1670: helkuo (hel-koo'-o);or helko (hel'-ko); probably akin to 138; to drag (literally or figuratively):
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