The OT today

[Benoni]

Jesus is a "Minor god" in that the only "Major" God is THE god, who is the Father, but more higher in rank than "Satan" who is "The god of this age" in the sense that he is given power over the world except where the Father intervenes through his agent, the Logos.

John 1:1c should read "And the word was a god", like the JW bible and others like theirs.

Likewise, a "Soul" is not just a word for a living being. Constantly the "Soul" is referenced as something that humans contain, and that lives beyond the grave.

You dare not answer any of the questions I asked you about Revelation because you know YOU are wrong.

So the King of kings, Lord of lord is a minor god higher then Satan. Where do you dig this up??????
What question??
WRONG.... A soul speaks of the realm of earth Adam became a living soul after God formed him from dust. Jesus is not a soul man he was the second Adam and never part of the first soulish Adamic Race. You doctrine is full of man made holes.

Gen. 2:7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

 

[Shermana]

As if yours isn't?

In Sirach, God is called the "King of king of kings".

The concept is that Wisdom was the First created being, he is the "Firstborn of all Creation", which implies not only that he was made first, but he holds authority over all created things, but is still under the authority of the Father. You are the one who used the term "minor god". I merely said he was "a god", and explained the issue of rank in your own terms.

A "soul" does not speak of the realm of the Earth necessarily. The entities in the "Spiritual realm" are souls as well. Where do you derive that they aren't? Why would David speak to His soul as an entity within him? Why does he say that souls go down to Hades?

 

[Benoni]

Jesus is a "Minor god" in that the only "Major" God is THE god, who is the Father, but more higher in rank than "Satan" who is "The god of this age" in the sense that he is given power over the world except where the Father intervenes through his agent, the Logos.

John 1:1c should read "And the word was a god", like the JW bible and others like theirs.

Likewise, a "Soul" is not just a word for a living being. Constantly the "Soul" is referenced as something that humans contain, and that lives beyond the grave.

You dare not answer any of the questions I asked you about Revelation because you know YOU are wrong.

You really need to let God’s Word open the truth for you instead of all this religious opinion.

Wrong post 160 you refereed to Jesus as a minor god.

God is one and Jesus and the Father are the same. You deny this and spin God’s Word to fit your limited view of him.

So you are saying there are many gods. You have Jesus and the Satan how many more do you have????

Where does it say Jesus is a minor god?

Wrong the soul does speak of the earth realm it speaks of carnal man’s intellect and reason and never was Jesus ever referred to with a soul. Chapter and verse please? Jesus is a spiritual man not a soulish man.

It is the soul that needs to be change for the spirit belongs to God and is not corrupted. That is why David soul was mentioned in Hades.

Before man ever fell man was created in God’s image and likeness which is spirit for God is a spirit not a soul.
Gen. 1: 26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Ecclesiastes 12: 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.





1 Corinthians 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

There is big difference between a soulish man and a spiritual man.
The soulical man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness unto him, neither can he know them because they are spiritually discerned, and the soulical man has not the Spirit

 

[roger1440]

Jesus did fulfill the Law perfectly.(Matthew 5:17,18) As Romans 10:4 says; "For Christ is the end of the Law, so that everyone exercising faith may have righteousness."

How do you understand those verses?

 

[roger1440]

Jews observe the law not to be honored by God but because they honor God. I’m not Jewish but I’ll give you an example of what I do. I buy my mother flowers on Mother’s Day not to be honored by my mother but because I honor her.

 

[Shermana]

Benoni, apparently you don't care much for rational debate or answering someone else's points or questions, but just want to preach your opinion and insist that you're right.

Typical Christian behavior yes, but I see no merit in even trying to discuss this with you since you seem pretty bent on refusing to actually debate or substantiate your views. I doubt you could even find a single website or link that backs your views.

 

[Shermana]

Jews observe the law not to be honored by God but because they honor God. I’m not Jewish but I’ll give you an example of what I do. I buy my mother flowers on Mother’s Day not to be honored by my mother but because I honor her.

The text says if they refuse to obey the Law, they will get struck with some nasty surprises and consequences and will be shamed and brought to lowliness. It says that if we obey Sabbath correctly and avoid doing what God doesn't want us to do, we will be made to rise to greatness. The whole idea is that we will be honored by God. This whole idea of "following the idea purely out of respect" is nice and rosey PR but in all actuality, it's not exactly true altogether. There is a reward of being honored by God in the end. Whether we do it for that reward or just because we enjoy honoring God's will and commands is another subject, but we cannot throw out the element that there is in fact a reward and punishment mechanism. I believe even the Talmud fully acknowledges this. Yes, we SHOULD obey the Law because we want to and want to make God pleased with us and that the honor we receive from doing so should not be the main goal or motivation, but there is the element that if we do so we will be rewarded with honor and glory (and avoid shame and undesirable events) that cannot be discarded from the equation either.

 

[Benoni]

Benoni, apparently you don't care much for rational debate or answering someone else's points or questions, but just want to preach your opinion and insist that you're right.

Typical Christian behavior yes, but I see no merit in even trying to discuss this with you since you seem pretty bent on refusing to actually debate or substantiate your views. I doubt you could even find a single website or link that backs your views.

What do you mesn I refuse to debate????

There are thousands of people who have come out of the religious system who would totally agree with me.

Your offended because I stepped all over your your bad doctrine.

No I am far from a typical Christian. This a place to debate these issues and your behavior would very much line up with mine if you look at your earlier debate.

 

[dantech]

I am not a Trinitarian but believe in one God. His name is Jesus; in Bible times names were chosen with great care and were frequently given by prophetic utterance or under divine inspiration so that the names actually revealed the nature, character, attributes, and destiny of the person, and thus carried a message to all who spoke or used that name.

You believe Jesus is God? I have a question for you then.

Please explain Deuteronomy 34:10. "And will not rise a prophet again in Israel like Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face" Didn't thousands of people know Jesus "face to face"?

Please explain this too: "he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live."

Again, plenty of people have seen Jesus' face.

 

[Benoni]

You believe Jesus is God? I have a question for you then.

Please explain Deuteronomy 34:10. "And will not rise a prophet again in Israel like Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face" Didn't thousands of people know Jesus "face to face"?
Please explain this too: "he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live."
Again, plenty of people have seen Jesus' face.

Pro. 25: 2
It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, But the glory of kings is to search out a matter

Jesus in the flesh is not the same as Jesus in His glory. You are speaking of Jesus in the flesh as well as a few contacts before he was glorified in the spirit.

You are speaking of is God’s glory which is a very deep and awesome study. Do you understand the glory of the God was the ark of God in the OT has become the Ark of God in the N T . Jesus is that gloryl Not in the flesh but in the spirit.

Matt. 15: 37 And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.
38And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.

Jesus was that Lamb of God who reversed the curse of Adam. His death made is so that all died in Adam will be made alive in Christ.

The temples veil hid the glory of God in the Holy of Holies in the OT and Jesus is that glory of the Holy of Holies. That same glory Moses could not view is the same glory that was in the Holy of holies which is now opened to all of us by the shedding of His blood.
Hebrews 10: 16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Great question very deep answer.

 

[dantech]

Pro. 25: 2
It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, But the glory of kings is to search out a matter

Jesus in the flesh is not the same as Jesus in His glory. You are speaking of Jesus in the flesh as well as a few contacts before he was glorified in the spirit.

You are speaking of is God’s glory which is a very deep and awesome study. Do you understand the glory of the God was the ark of God in the OT has become the Ark of God in the N T . Jesus is that gloryl Not in the flesh but in the spirit.

Matt. 15: 37 And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.
38And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.

Jesus was that Lamb of God who reversed the curse of Adam. His death made is so that all died in Adam will be made alive in Christ.

The temples veil hid the glory of God in the Holy of Holies in the OT and Jesus is that glory of the Holy of Holies. That same glory Moses could not view is the same glory that was in the Holy of holies which is now opened to all of us by the shedding of His blood.
Hebrews 10: 16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Great question very deep answer.

Do you have any scripture that I believe in, that might support your claim? Anything from the Tanakh is fine.

 

[CMike]

Pro. 25: 2
It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, But the glory of kings is to search out a matter

Jesus in the flesh is not the same as Jesus in His glory. You are speaking of Jesus in the flesh as well as a few contacts before he was glorified in the spirit.

You are speaking of is God’s glory which is a very deep and awesome study. Do you understand the glory of the God was the ark of God in the OT has become the Ark of God in the N T . Jesus is that gloryl Not in the flesh but in the spirit.

Matt. 15: 37 And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.
38And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.

Jesus was that Lamb of God who reversed the curse of Adam. His death made is so that all died in Adam will be made alive in Christ.

The temples veil hid the glory of God in the Holy of Holies in the OT and Jesus is that glory of the Holy of Holies. That same glory Moses could not view is the same glory that was in the Holy of holies which is now opened to all of us by the shedding of His blood.
Hebrews 10: 16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Great question very deep answer.

You do realize that the christian bible has no authority to jews?

I think he was refering to the Torah.

 

[CMike]

Originally Posted by CMike
The only savior jews have is G-D.

...Was it not I, the Lord? And there is no god apart from Me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but Me. (Isaiah, 45:21)

Turn to Me and be saved, all you ends of the Earth; for I am God, and there is no other. (Isaiah, 45:22)

This is what the Lord says…"Surely God is with you, and there is no other; there is no other God." (Isaiah, 45:14)

...The Lord our God, the Lord is one. (Deuteronomy, 6:4)

Obadiah 1:21 says that God, the Chief Savior, sends saviors.

You did see all the quotes that the only savior for the jews is G-D?

 

[CMike]

Genesis 38 was ripped directly out of the Book of the Jubilees word for word, numerous scholars agree it was interpolated.

And the Masoretic text is not error free.

And Deuteronomy itself is suspect altogether.

Ascribing perfection and direct, complete inspiration to it is little better than Christians who ascribe the NT being all inspired.

However, I do believe the Torah for the most part has been accurately conveyed from its original.

Since Genesis came way before the Book of the Jubilees that is highly unlikely?

Deuternomy is suspect to whom? Not to jews.

The Torah is perfect. It is from G-D. It has no mistakes.

 

[Benoni]

Originally Posted by CMike
The only savior jews have is G-D.

...Was it not I, the Lord? And there is no god apart from Me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but Me. (Isaiah, 45:21)

Turn to Me and be saved, all you ends of the Earth; for I am God, and there is no other. (Isaiah, 45:22)

This is what the Lord says…"Surely God is with you, and there is no other; there is no other God." (Isaiah, 45:14)

...The Lord our God, the Lord is one. (Deuteronomy, 6:4)



You did see all the quotes that the only savior for the jews is G-D?

I understand the Christian Bible means nothing to Jews but you asked a very deep question. I know you believe there will be a Messiah but you do not see Jesus as the Messiah.

Where are the Lost Tribes?

Why is there no physical temple?

I believe this is because Jesus is that Holy of Holies.

Where is your high priest?

I believe according to the Torah which I call the OT that God caused the fall for all humanity and the fall a Hugh part of God’s plan from the beginning. And God will restore the spiritual temble by means of the Tabernacle of David.

Do you know the significant of the Tabernacle of David?

Amos 9:1 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:
12That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this.
13Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt.
14And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them.
15And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God.

 

[Shermana]

Since Genesis came way before the Book of the Jubilees that is highly unlikely?

Deuternomy is suspect to whom? Not to jews.

The Torah is perfect. It is from G-D. It has no mistakes.

That's fine and all but the bulk of evidence and scholarship is against your position. It's a nice fantasy to believe in but the facts suggest otherwise. In a way it's really no better than Christias who believe the NT is perfect and reject and ignore all manuscript evidence that says otherwise.

Also, there's no proof that the version of Genesis you are familiar with predates the Book of Jubilees.

You are welcome to browse this thread where no one managed to really show any decisive counter-arguments, and to examine some of the articles on the subject.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/biblical-debates/148680-genesis-38-interpolated.html

 

[Shermana]

You did see all the quotes that the only savior for the jews is G-D?

Oh, so you don't believe in Obadiah 1:21. I see.

 

[CMike]

Oh, so you don't believe in Obadiah 1:21. I see.

Context

21. And saviors shall ascend Mt. Zion to judge the mountain of Esau, and the Lord shall have the kingdom.

Meanings leaders of Israel will get retribution against Esau for what they did to Israel.

It has nothing to do with saving people from sin, saving their soul, or any other kind of saving that jesus is supposed have done.

Only G-D does that.

 

[CMike]

That's fine and all but the bulk of evidence and scholarship is against your position. It's a nice fantasy to believe in but the facts suggest otherwise. In a way it's really no better than Christias who believe the NT is perfect and reject and ignore all manuscript evidence that says otherwise.

Also, there's no proof that the version of Genesis you are familiar with predates the Book of Jubilees.

You are welcome to browse this thread where no one managed to really show any decisive counter-arguments, and to examine some of the articles on the subject.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/biblical-debates/148680-genesis-38-interpolated.html

As if I care what the "great secular scholors say...

The Torah is from G-D .It's perfect.

Prophets were written by the prophets.

Psalms were mainly written by King David.

 

[Benoni]

As if I care what the "great secular scholors say...

The Torah is from G-D .It's perfect.

Prophets were written by the prophets.

Psalms were mainly written by King David.

Amos 9:1 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:
12That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this.
13Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt.
14And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them.
15And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God.