The OT today

[rusra02]

The only thing it says about the Covenant for ISRAEL AND JUDAH (yes ISRAEL AND JUDAH) being better in Jeremiah 31 is that it would be written in their hearts, without having to be taught. That's about it.

Also, where is "Olam" used in the non-eternal sense?

Here is a quote from the Bible encyclopedia Insight on the Scriptures regarding the word ʽoh·lam′. "The Hebrew word ʽoh·lam′ carries the thought of indefinite or uncertain time. Lexicographer Gesenius defines it as meaning “hidden time, i.e. obscure and long, of which the beginning or end is uncertain or indefinite.” (A Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament, translated by E. Robinson, 1836, p. 746) Accordingly, expressions such as “time indefinite” (Ps 25:6), “indefinitely lasting” (Hab 3:6), “of old” (Ge 6:4), “a long time ago,” “of long ago” (Jos 24:2; Pr 22:28; 23:10), and “long-lasting” (Ec 12:5) appropriately convey the thought of the original-language term." I believe ʽoh·lam′ can convey the thought of everlasting as well. But often, it refers to a long and unspecified time. For example, according to some translations, the Aaronic priesthood would last forever but it did not. No one today can prove descent from Aaron. A more correct rendering is "to time indefinite." (Exodus 40:15)

 

[CMike]

Isnt it fun how Hashem forgot to mention all these rather important details 3200 years ago?

There are two books about the dos and donts but all rather important details like "btw iam going to impregnate myself into a woman if you screw this up and will then die to atone for everyones sins" or "iam going to visit the tribe of ishmael if you are being so uncooperative in the future" are simply forgotten.

But when it comes to cooking, a rather important topic for a human being(or so i have heard) we get this: "You shall not cook a kid in its mother's milk."

Huh. Thats so not going to give our religious teachers a hard time. Thanks.

I agree with you.

G-D goes into extreme detail.

He specifies how he wanted the sanctury in the wilderness built, including exact measurements. He stated the color that the priests' tunic should be.

Yet, christians would have us to believe that something as important as there being another god (or whatever their interpretation is ) and that they are no longer responsible for their sins because jesus was executed, and that even though it's no where in the Torah, it is somehow the new major tenents of the Torah and G-D.:thud:

This is despite the extreme detail that G-D goes into regarding what he wanted done in the Torah, including exact measurements of how he wanted things built.

At the very best there is no place where it's clearly stated within the Torah.

How is that possible according to christians?

 

[CMike]

Here is a quote from the Bible encyclopedia Insight on the Scriptures regarding the word ʽoh·lam′. "The Hebrew word ʽoh·lam′ carries the thought of indefinite or uncertain time. Lexicographer Gesenius defines it as meaning “hidden time, i.e. obscure and long, of which the beginning or end is uncertain or indefinite.” (A Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament, translated by E. Robinson, 1836, p. 746) Accordingly, expressions such as “time indefinite” (Ps 25:6), “indefinitely lasting” (Hab 3:6), “of old” (Ge 6:4), “a long time ago,” “of long ago” (Jos 24:2; Pr 22:28; 23:10), and “long-lasting” (Ec 12:5) appropriately convey the thought of the original-language term." I believe ʽoh·lam′ can convey the thought of everlasting as well. But often, it refers to a long and unspecified time. For example, according to some translations, the Aaronic priesthood would last forever but it did not. No one today can prove descent from Aaron. A more correct rendering is "to time indefinite." (Exodus 40:15)

That's not true. I am a jewish priest. It's still occurring.

We don't have to prove it. I am a kohen (priest) because my father was. And he was kohen because his father was and so on and so on.

 

[Pegg]

I agree with you.

G-D goes into extreme detail.

He specifies how he wanted the sanctury in the wilderness built, including exact measurements. He stated the color that the priests' tunic should be.

Yet, christians would have us to believe that something as important as there being another god (or whatever their interpretation is ) and that they are no longer responsible for their sins because jesus was executed, and that even though it's no where in the Torah, it is somehow the new major tenents of the Torah and G-D.:thud:

This is despite the extreme detail that G-D goes into regarding what he wanted done in the Torah, including exact measurements of how he wanted things built.

At the very best there is no place where it's clearly stated within the Torah.

How is that possible according to christians?

Its stated in plenty of places in the Torah,

The promised messiah would come, not only for Israel, but for all the nations of earth:
“And by means of your offspring*+ all nations of the earth will obtain a blessing for themselves because you have listened to my voice.’” Genesis 22:18

The prophet Daniel foretold the time of the Messiahs appearance and what would occur during that time.
26“There are 70 weeks* that have been determined for your people and your holy city,+ in order to terminate the transgression, to finish off sin,+ to make atonement for error,+ to bring in everlasting righteousness,+ to seal up the vision and the prophecy,*+ and to anoint the Holy of Holies.*

From their captivity the jews would be released, return to rebuild Jerusalem and at the conclusion of the 69 weeks of years, Messiah would appear:
25 You should know and understand that from the issuing of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem+ until Mes·si′ah*+ the Leader,+ there will be 7 weeks, also 62 weeks.+ She will be restored and rebuilt, with a public square and moat, but in times of distress.

Messiah would be 'cut off' or killed
26 “And after the 62 weeks, Mes·si′ah will be cut off,*+ with nothing for himself.+

Jerusalem will be destroyed
“And the people of a leader who is coming will destroy the city and the holy place.+ And its end will be by the flood. And until the end there will be war; what is decided upon is desolations.+

And the sacrifices being offered at the temple will cease to exist
27 “And he will keep the covenant in force for the many for one week; and at the half of the week, he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease.+


The torah also foretold many circumstances surrounding the life of the Messiah:
He would be born of a virgin in Bethlehem. Isaiah 7:14; Micah 5:2
He would be called out of Egypt, and babes were killed after his birth. Jeremiah 31:15; Hosea 11:1
He entered Jerusalem on the colt of an . Zechariah 9:9
Soldiers apportioned his clothing among themselves and cast lots for his inner garment. Psalm 22:18
His bones were not broken and he was pierced. Psalm 34:20; Zechariah 12:10

And the kingdom that the Messiah would rule was foretold to be a heavenly kingdom in the book of
Daniel 7:13 “I kept watching in the visions of the night, and look! with the clouds of the heavens, someone like a son of man+ was coming; and he gained access to the Ancient of Days,+ and they brought him up close before that One. 14 And to him there were given rulership,+ honor,+ and a kingdom, that the peoples, nations, and language groups should all serve him.+ His rulership is an everlasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom will not be destroyed.+

According to the Torah, he would be called a Mighty God...that doesnt mean he IS God Almighty, it just signifies the position he holds:
Isiah 9:6 "For a child has been born to us,+A son has been given to us; And the rulership* will rest on his shoulder.+
His name will be called Wonderful Counselor,+ Mighty God,+ Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
7 To the increase of his rulership And to peace, there will be no end,+On the throne of David+ and on his kingdom In order to establish it firmly+ and to sustain it Through justice+ and righteousness,+ From now on and forever.
The zeal of Jehovah of armies will do this.

 

[greentwiga]

I agree with you.

G-D goes into extreme detail.

He specifies how he wanted the sanctury in the wilderness built, including exact measurements. He stated the color that the priests' tunic should be.

Yet, christians would have us to believe that something as important as there being another god (or whatever their interpretation is ) and that they are no longer responsible for their sins because jesus was executed, and that even though it's no where in the Torah, it is somehow the new major tenents of the Torah and G-D.:thud:

This is despite the extreme detail that G-D goes into regarding what he wanted done in the Torah, including exact measurements of how he wanted things built.

At the very best there is no place where it's clearly stated within the Torah.

How is that possible according to christians?

It is not that we are no longer responsible for our sins. We are to live by love. If we are focused on love, we won't steal, etc. Think of US law. We can't murder, but if we see someone drowning and can save them by throwing a handy rope, we can't be persecuted for not throwing it. Love would take us above the law and throw the rope and help any way else. Any interpretation of Christianity that puts us below the requirements of the law is wrong.

There is one exception. Jesus said that healing a man on the sabbath was illegal. Therefore people did not do it because it would hurt their own standing with God. Jesus taught us that we should heal on the Sabbath. The other person is more important than my own standing with God.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

Its stated in plenty of places in the Torah,

The promised messiah would come, not only for Israel, but for all the nations of earth:
“And by means of your offspring*+ all nations of the earth will obtain a blessing for themselves because you have listened to my voice.’” Genesis 22:18

[

How does this quote have anything to do with the Messiah!!??

 

[rusra02]

That's not true. I am a jewish priest. It's still occurring.

We don't have to prove it. I am a kohen (priest) because my father was. And he was kohen because his father was and so on and so on.

After the Jews returned from Babylon, those who could not establish their lineage from Aaron were barred from serving as priests. "These were the ones that looked for their register, to establish their genealogy publicly, and it was not found, so that they were barred as polluted from the priesthood." (Nehemiah 7:64) After the Romans destroyed Jerusalem in 70 C.E., the genealogical records were apparently destroyed, as was the temple, the alter, and the priesthood. This. I believe, was because of what Jesus stated; " This is why I say to you, The kingdom of God will be taken from you and be given to a nation producing its fruits." (Matthew 21:43) This nation, I believe, is spiritual Israel, the true Christian congregation.

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

Isnt it fun how Hashem forgot to mention all these rather important details 3200 years ago?

There are two books about the dos and donts but all rather important details like "btw iam going to impregnate myself into a woman if you screw this up and will then die to atone for everyones sins" or "iam going to visit the tribe of ishmael if you are being so uncooperative in the future" are simply forgotten.

But when it comes to cooking, a rather important topic for a human being(or so i have heard) we get this: "You shall not cook a kid in its mother's milk."

Huh. Thats so not going to give our religious teachers a hard time. Thanks.

Wait... Are you saying that I'm saying Christ was plan B because the Law of Moses failed? I'm not saying that at all. My position is that all the sacrifices, the whole core of the Law was helping us "come unto Christ." That it was never meant to exist independently.

 

[Flankerl]

Wait... Are you saying that I'm saying Christ was plan B because the Law of Moses failed? I'm not saying that at all. My position is that all the sacrifices, the whole core of the Law was helping us "come unto Christ." That it was never meant to exist independently.

Dont know if thats worse or just the same old christian story.


But good for you.

 

[Pegg]

How does this quote have anything to do with the Messiah!!??

its is one of the messianic prophecies.

The first is found in Genesis where God promises to raise a seed (offspring) for the purpose of 'crushing the head of the serpent' who deceived Eve.

then the promise was made to Abraham that the promised seed would be born through his family line.
Then it was told to come through his son Jacob. And to Jacob it was revealed that of his 12 sons, the promised seed would be born through his son Judah. Judahs family line brought King David into the world and to him it was revealed that the seed would come to be through his line.

There are a string of messianic prophecies which i'll post if you want to see them in order of appearance in the bible.

 

[CMike]

its is one of the messianic prophecies.

The first is found in Genesis where God promises to raise a seed (offspring) for the purpose of 'crushing the head of the serpent' who deceived Eve.

I must have missed that part, perhaps you can quote it ?

then the promise was made to Abraham that the promised seed would be born through his family line.
Then it was told to come through his son Jacob. And to Jacob it was revealed that of his 12 sons, the promised seed would be born through his son Judah. Judahs family line brought King David into the world and to him it was revealed that the seed would come to be through his line.

There are a string of messianic prophecies which i'll post if you want to see them in order of appearance in the bible.

None of the passages you quoted have anything to do with jesus.

Almost none have anything to do with the messiah period.

You see G-D went into great detail about everything he wanted the jews to do.

Yet, christians have to get extremely creative to put their god into the Torah.

Why is that?

If jesus was really part of the Torah, why isn't he explicitly mentiond?

Why do christians have to get so creative and mistranslate and twist the Torah?

If he truely was in it, why would it even be a question? Wouldn't the christian god be clearly explained where things are explained that are of much less importance?

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

its is one of the messianic prophecies.

The first is found in Genesis where God promises to raise a seed (offspring) for the purpose of 'crushing the head of the serpent' who deceived Eve.

then the promise was made to Abraham that the promised seed would be born through his family line.
Then it was told to come through his son Jacob. And to Jacob it was revealed that of his 12 sons, the promised seed would be born through his son Judah. Judahs family line brought King David into the world and to him it was revealed that the seed would come to be through his line.

There are a string of messianic prophecies which i'll post if you want to see them in order of appearance in the bible.

I still don't get how that verse is about the Messiah

 

[CMike]

I still don't get how that verse is about the Messiah

It doesn't.

It has absolutely nothing to do with the messiah.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

:

It doesn't.

It has absolutely nothing to do with the messiah.

I thought so I read from verse1 for the context.

 

[CMike]

:

I thought so I read from verse1 for the context.

Good for you. Frubal coming.

 

[Pegg]

I must have missed that part, perhaps you can quote it ?

i would be happy to quote it,


Genesis 3:14 Then Jehovah God said to the serpent:+ “Because you have done this, you are the cursed one out of all the domestic animals and out of all the wild animals of the field. On your belly you will go, and you will eat dust all the days of your life. 15 And I will put enmity*+ between you+ and the woman+ and between your offspring*+ and her offspring.*+ He will crush* your head,+ and you will strike* him in the heel.”

God speaks to the serpent here.... he says that there will be emnity or conflict between his seed and the womans seed.... but eventually the womans seed would crush his head. The seed here is spoken of as being an 'individual'... it says 'he' will crush your head. So the messiah would be the one to bring salvation to mankind.

The book of Revelation tells us that this 'serpent' is the devil satan:
Revelation 20:2
2 He seized the dragon, the original serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for 1,000 years.
Revelation 20:10
10 And the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulfur, where both the wild beast and the false prophet already were; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


The one who seized the dragon is Jesus christ...the Messiah who was promised to be the 'seed' who would crush the serpents head.

None of the passages you quoted have anything to do with jesus.

Almost none have anything to do with the messiah period.

i thinnk Judaism has changed a lot since the first century and earlier. and there have always been different schools of thought within Judaism. Some jews considered these to be messianic prophecies, others did not. Jesus 1st century followers did view them as messianic because they used them in their writings to prove that Jesus is the promised messiah.

You see G-D went into great detail about everything he wanted the jews to do.
Yet, christians have to get extremely creative to put their god into the Torah.
Why is that?

the writers of the Christian scriptures are jews. Jesus was a jew and he taught from the Hebrew scriptures.....thats why.

If jesus was really part of the Torah, why isn't he explicitly mentiond?

The messiah was always called the 'seed'... he is not named in the hebrew scriptures. The hebrew scriptures regarding the messiah are like a roadmap leading to the Messiah. When the Messiah appeared, he would be identified by those hebrew scriptures.

If he truely was in it, why would it even be a question? Wouldn't the christian god be clearly explained where things are explained that are of much less importance?

The Christian God is the same God as the Jewish God. The True God of the bible is Jehovah/Yahweh. It was he whom the Christians worshiped, no one else.

 

[Shermana]

Pegg seems to still refuse to accept that the word "Seed" is used in the singular even though its usually used in the sense of a plural. Just like English. No amount of examples of the contrary will change her mind apparently.

The messiah was always called the 'seed'.

Good luck proving that one.

2 He seized the dragon, the original serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for 1,000 years.

Nice try, it says "The old/ancient Serpent". Is that your NWT translation?

From the Pistis Sophia, this "Ancient Serpent" of whom the author of Revelation may have had common descendency of ideas, was a gigantic, gargantuan, unspeakably large dragon in the heavens whose body acts as the prison and hellish containment of souls.

It most certainly does not say "original" Serpent.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

Nice try, it says "The old/ancient Serpent". Is that your NWT translation?

From the Pistis Sophia, this "Ancient Serpent" of whom the author of Revelation may have had common descendency of ideas, was a gigantic, gargantuan, unspeakably large dragon in the heavens whose body acts as the prison and hellish containment of souls.

It most certainly does not say "original" Serpent.

Ok you got me looking up different translations

 

[Flankerl]

:

I thought so I read from verse1 for the context.

You have just evolved beyond most christian scholarship.

Thats a frubal.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Genesis 1 translations make it pretty clear that it was an actual snake...the declaration against it would be very important when relating it to the relationship between those who lived in areas that had poisonous snakes.