The OT = UGH

[Koldo]

Perhaps that god thought in terms of "baby steps"

Why would he do that?

 

[Koldo]

I disagree, I think you're overestimating them. Can you not understand how different their culture was, How different their society was?

God ruled by fear, because that's all they understood. They were cruel, harsh primitive people who didn't fully understand or appreciate or value concepts like forgiveness, mercy, love, understanding and self-sacrifice.

And even though Jesus came and changed all that, Try and imagine a world without Jesus ever having been in it.

Their culture was pretty different. However, not so different that a powerful god had to succumb to their ways to reach them.

 

[Thana]

Their culture was pretty different. However, not so different that a powerful god had to succumb to their ways to reach them.

God didn't succumb to man, What a disillusioned thing to say.

God gives us free will, And so he used the most effective way to help them, Without taking their choices and free will away from them.

 

[Koldo]

God didn't succumb to man, What a disillusioned thing to say.

If he didn't, that is even worse actually.
Since all OT actions endorsed by god would be a perfect reflection of god's ways in that case.

God gives us free will, And so he used the most effective way to help them, Without taking their choices and free will away from them.

The most effective way to help them? Why do you think so?

 

[Shermana]

And I don't hail such people, regarding them as no better than petty bandits.

The entire Viking religion aside from the myth part was based on conquest and pillage and receiving blessings from the gods to have good conquest and plunder. If a Viking Revivalism doesn't inherit that part, it's not much of a revival.

 

[nash8]

I have to wonder how many christians have read the whole Old Testament and have managed to keep an unchanged opinon of their god. I have to wonder how many have turned away from it after reading the OT.

It seems to me that the OT and the NT are so different that it seems their god has multiple personalities or something.

The amount of raping that occurred in the OT was horrifying.

The amount of rape that occured in ancient times was horrifying. Do you think that this type of behavior only occured in Jewish culture? This was just as, if not more common up through the time of Romans. The only difference is that Jewish culture actually had people that were able and willing to record the history as it was instead of trying to "cover poop with perfume".

What is your knowledge level of the general welfare and lifestyle of people at that time?

From what I've read, Gnostic Christians believed that the god of the OT and the god of the NT were separate entities.

...I am not sure how that would work.

There are many different sects of Gnostic Christians that believe drastically different things. Some believe Jesus wasn't a real person, some dont. With regard to YHVV, many modern gnostic sects believe to be the demiurge, which is the God of Earth, but not the supreme God of the universe.

The viewpoints of demiurge vary from benevolent diety doing his best to run run a life bearing planet (a difficult task in it's own right in my opinion), to a malevolent diety bent on corrupting the world, and the rest of the galaxy given the time and oppurtunity.

The views of YHVH vs. demiurge vs. supreme diety within gnosticism vary greatly.

The problem with this is that most "Christians" don't even realize that the God they worship would most likely be YHVH, because this would of most likely been the diety revered by Jesus. Go ask people who identify as Christians how they feel about Yahweh, and most will just look at you with a dumb look on their face, or say something random about Jewish people lol.

Not all Gnostic Christians. I believe it was mostly a Marcionite concept that infiltrated the later Gnostic movements. It was mostly a strictly later-Gnostic concept with groups like the Sethians. And even that's a bit debatable as to which of them believed the OT Jewish god was the Demiurge in disguise.

I would agree, but most of the more popular gnostic sects identify with the demurge concept of YHVH. I would wager to say that this has grown out of anti-abrahamic ideals rather than in historical basis.

As for all the "raping", what parts are you talking about? The taking of virgins as war booty? What else were the girls supposed to do exactly? Their only other option back then was to become prostitutes when their city-state is destroyed. Besides, these Israelite warriors were strong, strapping, freshly-rich dudes. I'd personally bet many of them would be happier with that option than a life of whoredom. There was no social security back then. The only options really are: A) Marry your conqueror B) Whore yourself. Not much else for women back then.

Sad but true. And not just for those conquered by Israelite tribes, but those conquered by any tribe or group of people at that time.

But at the same time, this would have not needed be the case if there was no "conquering" done in the first place. But such was the life of the peoples of ancient times.

There was also an early Christian leader, very passionate in his beliefs, but pre-NT, who read the Tanakh, and declared "That's not the God I believe in!" He actually started the idea of a Christian Bible, and created the first one out of a modified form of the Gospel of Luke (with all references to the Tanakh removed) and 10 of Paul's letters.

Who was this person? You can send me a PM if you don't want to derail this amazing thread.

It's a bit more complex than that. Two gods that actually appear in both testaments.

Again, I haven't seen this particular viewpoint within gnosticism. I would appreciate if you would cite a website so I can find more information on this subject or just send me a PM.

Maybe if more christians understood this, non christians wouldnt find it so much of an issue.

I agree with this. For the most part, the entire world was rough like this at this point in history. As I stated earlier, the Jews where just one of the few peoples that were able to write it down, and not have the desire to make themselves "look good".

I disagree, I think you're overestimating them. Can you not understand how different their culture was, How different their society was?

God ruled by fear, because that's all they understood. They were cruel, harsh primitive people who didn't fully understand or appreciate or value concepts like forgiveness, mercy, love, understanding and self-sacrifice.

And even though Jesus came and changed all that, Try and imagine a world without Jesus ever having been in it.

LOL, you should look at the list Torah laws regaurding "forgiveness, mercy, love, understanding, and self sacrifice" that was posted in this thread.

I would imagine the world would be much the same as it would be now had Jesus never lived in it. I would also believe that are Jewish friends would think much the same lol.

Lastly, as a Christian, how do you go about worshipping YHVH?

 

[Thana]

LOL, you should look at the list Torah laws regaurding "forgiveness, mercy, love, understanding, and self sacrifice" that was posted in this thread.

I would imagine the world would be much the same as it would be now had Jesus never lived in it. I would also believe that are Jewish friends would think much the same lol.

Lastly, as a Christian, how do you go about worshipping YHVH?

I sincerly doubt Jew's would be happier without Jesus, Since they're still waiting for him and his promise to restore them. And I also doubt the world would be the same.

As a Christian, I worship God as I worship Jesus. Because Jesus is God and God is Jesus. When I pray to one, I pray to both.

 

[Thana]

If he didn't, that is even worse actually.
Since all OT actions endorsed by god would be a perfect reflection of god's ways in that case.



The most effective way to help them? Why do you think so?

Are you Christian? I'm having trouble explaining myself, And I'm curious at to whether it's because you're not Christian or if it's something else.

 

[Shermana]

Who was this person? You can send me a PM if you don't want to derail this amazing thread.

I'll go ahead and spoil the surprise.

He's talking about Marcion.

 

[Riverwolf]

The entire Viking religion aside from the myth part was based on conquest and pillage and receiving blessings from the gods to have good conquest and plunder. If a Viking Revivalism doesn't inherit that part, it's not much of a revival.

Dude, the Viking era was 800 to 1100 AD. Celto-Germanic pan-religion lasted FAR longer than that, and I'm more interested in the earlier way, which only barely survives in fairy tales, most of which still wear Christian masks (The Legend of King Arthur is the most famous example). Hence Asatru/Forn Sidu (Forn Sidu = Anglo-Saxon term for "Old Way").

It's said that during the Christianization of the Germanic world, they were happy to let go of their Gods, but fought fiercely to hold on to their Elven rituals. Even to this day, there's a certain fascination with Elves that indicates real cultural importance. Clearly, then, the Elves were more important than the Gods in the minds of the Germanic Carls.

I also remind you that many Vikings were, in fact, Christian. Iceland was a country populated almost entirely by Vikings, and they were Christianized by 1000 AD; even before then, I don't recall them having much interest in conquest and raiding.

 

[averageJOE]

I disagree, I think you're overestimating them. Can you not understand how different their culture was, How different their society was?

God ruled by fear, because that's all they understood. They were cruel, harsh primitive people who didn't fully understand or appreciate or value concepts like forgiveness, mercy, love, understanding and self-sacrifice.

And even though Jesus came and changed all that, Try and imagine a world without Jesus ever having been in it.

Kinda makes the whole flood story to be a total waste.

 

[Koldo]

Are you Christian? I'm having trouble explaining myself, And I'm curious at to whether it's because you're not Christian or if it's something else.

I am not a christian. But I was a christian.

 

[ChristineES]

All of history, no matter whose it is, is violent. People are drawn to watch American football, and that is a violent sport. Don't even get me started on wrestling and boxing. Wars are being waged even now. Violence happens in gangs. I hear about murders every day of my life on the news. Why do expect the Tanakh to be any different when it comes to the history. People are people.
But, at the same time, everyone is overlooking the Psalms, Proverbs, Ruth, and others. It shows that despite violence that happens in every culture there is always some beauty mixed in with it.

 

[Levite]

I sincerly doubt Jew's would be happier without Jesus, Since they're still waiting for him and his promise to restore them.

Jews are not waiting for Jesus. We are waiting for the messiah. We don't believe Jesus was the messiah, much less God. We think he was just another Jewish guy the Romans killed, with delusions of or aspirations to messiahdom-- no different than hundreds of other guys running around ancient Israel at that time.

Most likely, Jews would have been much happier in a world without Jesus, since no Christianity would've meant no oppression by governments that labeled us Christ-killers and devil-worshippers, no pogroms, no Crusades, no Inquisition, no being driven out of the countries we lived in because the church stirred up the local rulers against us-- perhaps no Holocaust, even.

Why would we ever wait for Jesus, when Christianity has brought us nothing but misery and cruelty?

 

[CMike]

Jews are not waiting for Jesus. We are waiting for the messiah. We don't believe Jesus was the messiah, much less God. We think he was just another Jewish guy the Romans killed, with delusions of or aspirations to messiahdom-- no different than hundreds of other guys running around ancient Israel at that time.

Most likely, Jews would have been much happier in a world without Jesus, since no Christianity would've meant no oppression by governments that labeled us Christ-killers and devil-worshippers, no pogroms, no Crusades, no Inquisition, no being driven out of the countries we lived in because the church stirred up the local rulers against us-- perhaps no Holocaust, even.

Why would we ever wait for Jesus, when Christianity has brought us nothing but misery and cruelty?

Excellent point. He has brought a lot of misery upon jews.

 

[ChristineES]

Excellent point. He has brought a lot of misery upon jews.

Only a lot of his followers brought misery, not Jesus himself.

 

[nazz]

All of history, no matter whose it is, is violent. People are drawn to watch American football, and that is a violent sport. Don't even get me started on wrestling and boxing. Wars are being waged even now. Violence happens in gangs. I hear about murders every day of my life on the news. Why do expect the Tanakh to be any different when it comes to the history. People are people.
But, at the same time, everyone is overlooking the Psalms, Proverbs, Ruth, and others. It shows that despite violence that happens in every culture there is always some beauty mixed in with it.

I think everyone realizes this a world full of violent people. What they are questioning is a deity who specifically commands violence be done in his name.

 

[nazz]

Why would he do that?

Perhaps all he could do.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Jews are not waiting for Jesus. We are waiting for the messiah. We don't believe Jesus was the messiah, much less God.

This is certainly true.

We think he was just another Jewish guy the Romans killed, with delusions of or aspirations to messiahdom-- no different than hundreds of other guys running around ancient Israel at that time.

This, however, is outrageous and totally uncalled for. On what basis do you embrace the diaspora inspired NT depiction of some Jerusalem sect leader as accurate and authentic?

Most likely, Jews would have been much happier in a world without Jesus, since no Christianity would've meant ...

You have absolutely no idea what it would have meant and neither do I.

 

[CMike]

Only a lot of his followers brought misery, not Jesus himself.

True.