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The Pagan/Christian Immortal Soul

I Am Hugh

Researcher
From a strictly Biblical perspective the term soul is a somewhat problematic translation due to the origin of the English word soul itself. It is derived from the Old English words sawol and sawel as found in the 8th century poem Beowulf and Vespasian Psalter. From the Germanic sailian and Old English selian meaning to bind, which was the ritualistic practice of binding a corpse of the dead in the grave in order to prevent a return as a ghost, and this brings us to the difficulty. The Bible teaches that once you die you are simply dead until a possible resurrection from the grave. The combination of the pagan superstitious and the more practical Biblical understanding of death would naturally mix, obscuring the real meaning of the Bible.

As the Encyclopaedia Judaica states: "Only in the post-biblical period, did a clear and firm belief in the immortality of the soul take hold . . . and become one of the cornerstones of the Jewish and Christian faiths."

In 322 BCE Alexander the Great's conquest of the Middle East brought him eventually to Jerusalem, where he was welcomed by the Jews. Greek culture and philosophy began then to influence Jewish thinking, including the idea of the immortal soul. Philo of Alexandria, for example, was a Jewish philosopher of the first century CE and a great admirer of Plato, who's Dialogues explained the soul as "immortal and imperishable, and our souls will truly exist in another world!" Greek philosophy having influenced Jewish thinking would, of course, naturally do the same with Christian thinking, but the writers of the Bible had an entirely different perspective on the soul.

The difficulty of translation in a Biblical sense probably first occurred to Ulfilas, Christian missionary and Bible translator to the Goths of the 4th century. This was a period of time when pagan influence began to heavily infiltrate Christian thinking. Ulfilas translated the Bible from the Greek into Goth, even devising the Gothic alphabet. He would have translated the Greek psyche into the Gothic saiwala. It was, not unlike the difficulties later raised in the translation into English, a difficult task since the word that comes closest has a similar meaning of being animated, but also has the superstitious attachment.

The Greek Psykhe
The Greek psykhe, according to Greek English lexicons, means "life, the conscious self or personality as the center of emotions, desires and affections. A living being." Even Greek philosophers were not entirely consistent in their application of psykhe, to Plato it had three parts, the intelligible being immortal and the other two being mortal. One divine, one immortal and one mortal. Psykhe was also applied to the butterfly or moth, due to its metamorphosis, thought to be similar to the immortal soul rising from the dead.

The Greek psykhe can also be used as a personal pronoun, for example at John 10:24 / 2 Corinthians 12:15 / Hebrews 10:38. Matthew 10:28; 26:38 are examples of the mortality of the Greek psykhe.

The Hebrew Nephesh
The Hebrew nephesh comes from a root word meaning to "breath." In the literal sense a soul is "a breather." Any living creature that breathes air is a soul. Since the blood carries the air we breathe throughout the body the soul is, in effect, the blood of any breathing creature. Genesis 9:4 confirms this by the dietary restriction against eating blood. So it was that when preparing meat for food the blood had to be poured onto the ground rather than eaten, out of respect for the creator's gift of life. (Leviticus 17:3; Acts 15:20)

Notice that by comparing various translations the Hebrew Nephesh is sometimes translated as life, as well as soul.

When the Jewish Publication Society of America produced their translation of the Torah, H.M. Orlinsky, then editor in chief of the Hebrew Union College pointed out that the word soul had been eliminated: "Other translators have interpreted it to mean 'soul,' which is completely inaccurate. The Bible does not say we have a soul. 'Nefesh' is the person himself, his need for food, the very blood in his veins, his being." - The New York Times, October 12, 1962.

The Soul Is Mortal
Jehovah God created life (Psalm 36:9) so the soul, being the blood, belonged to him. (Ezekiel 18:4) He gave man the permission to take the life of animals to eat after the flood, but only if they poured the blood of the animal out on the ground as an indication that life, the soul or blood was His and sacred. (Genesis 9:1-6)

When Abel was murdered God told Cain his brother's blood cried out, meaning that something sacred, Abel's soul, his blood was wrongfully taken and that demanded retribution. (Genesis 4:10) The blood of a murdered person defiles the earth. (Numbers 35:33; Genesis 9:5-6) A residential area where a murdered person was found, and it was not known who killed the person in order to pay soul for soul, or blood for blood, was defiled until a blood sacrifice was made. (Deuteronomy 21:1-9) Sacrifice for the atonement of sins was the only acceptable use for blood with God, thus for the death to mankind Adam's sin brought only the blood of Christ could atone. (Leviticus 17:10-11; Hebrews 12:24)

The term dead soul is used in the Bible simply meaning a dead person. No longer breathing, no blood pumping through the body, no longer animated. (Leviticus 19:28; 21:1, 11; 22:4; Numbers 5:2; 6:6; Haggai 2:13)

References
"There is no dichotomy of body and soul in the O T. The Israelite saw things concretely, in their totality, and thus he considered men as persons and not as composites. The term nepes [nephesh], though translated by our word soul, never means soul as distinct from the body or the individual person . . . . The term psykhe is the N T word corresponding with nepes. It can mean the principle of life, life itself, or the living being." - New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967), Vol. XIII, pp. 449, 450.

"Immortality of the soul is a Greek notion formed in ancient mystery cults and elaborated by the philosopher Plato." - Presbyterian Life, May 1, 1970, p. 35

Plato, quoting Socrates said: "The soul, . . . if it departs pure, dragging with it nothing of the body, . . . goes away into that which is like itself, into the invisible, divine, immortal, and wise, and when it arrives there it is happy, freed from error and folly and fear . . . and all the other human ills, and . . . lives in truth through all after time with the gods." - Phaedo, 80, D, E; 81, A.

"The Hebrew term for 'soul' (nefesh) was used by Moses . . . . signifying an 'animated being' and applicable equally to nonhuman beings. . . . New Testament usage of psyche ('soul') was comparable to nefesh." - The New Encyclopædia Britannica (1976), Macropædia, Vol. 15, p. 152.

"The belief that the soul continues its existence after the dissolution of the body is a matter of philosophical or theological speculation rather than of simple faith, and is accordingly nowhere expressly taught in Holy Scripture." - The Jewish Encyclopedia (1910), Vol. VI, p. 564.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
The Bible teaches that once you die you are simply dead until a possible resurrection from the grave.

The "Bible" is an English translation which does not faithfully capture the original text in the original language.

As the Encyclopaedia Judaica states: "Only in the post-biblical period, did a clear and firm belief in the immortality of the soul take hold . . . and become one of the cornerstones of the Jewish and Christian faiths."

They're wrong. The dates they're using depend on false assumptions and premises which have been debunked.

Greek culture and philosophy began then to influence Jewish thinking

The direction of influence is assumed without rational reasons. In my experience this occurs due to confluence of 3 factors:
  1. a preference for Greek logic and philosophy
  2. the absence of access to Jewish texts and sources of information
  3. Christian indoctrination and dogma which demonizes Jews and Judaism
But simply: it is assumed Jews and Judaism are wrong and have been corrupted without just, and rational reasons. It's an argument from ignorance.

The Hebrew Nephesh

Well. I see you either willfully ignored or missed what I wrote about the Neshama in the previous thread. Which is it?

Jehovah God created life (Psalm 36:9) so the soul, being the blood, belonged to him.

FALSE ASSUMPTION: There is only one Hebrew word for soul.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
The soul is simply a fancy way to say human being imo. Nothing more.

I agree, to an extent. In common parlance, the word "human" as a qualifier is implied. When someone says the word "Soul", they usually mean: "Human-Soul". However, I object to the implication that only humans have souls. These words on the screen have a soul. It's their inner meaning which is conveyed by the "body" of the text itself.

The example I always use is "Dog". The word "Dog" has a body and a soul. The body is the physical form of the word "Dog" as it is being articulated. "Dog" has a physical pronunciation which is formed by the 5 instruments of articulation: diaphragm, palette, tongue, lips, and jaw. That's its body. The soul, though, of the word "Dog" varies. It depends on what the speaker intends to communicate. The soul of the word is what we put into it.

In English: a "Dog" has four legs ( usually ) and says "woof-woof".

In Hebrew: a "Dog" .... is a Fish.
 

I Am Hugh

Researcher
This looks like a JW tract.

The JWs used to hold to a more traditional theology until they discovered the truth which is pretty well documented. Nothing anyone says about the Bible, including the JWs is original, except for the unintentionally nefarious practice of inserting themselves into prophecy.

You should cite your source.

You should provide a rebuttal. Regardless of the source.

I love how it conveniently ignores what Jesus taught about the immortal soul in the Gospels.

No. He didn't. And you criticize my lack of citing? Cite your scriptural support and/or refute mine.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
refute mine.

It's been refuted. You are ignoring it. You probably have me on ignore right now, because you know that I have the ability to knock down your misconceptions and point out the massive gaps in what you're writing.
 

I Am Hugh

Researcher
The "Bible" is an English translation which does not faithfully capture the original text in the original language.

Don't the Muslims use the same argument with Arabic and the Quran? Why did the church object to people reading the Bible? Why were there people destroying printing presses and various English translations? Why did the scribes replace God's name in the Bible with the generic term LORD?

In a sense there is some degree of logic in that, though it's irrelevant. The modern Bible - English or any other language - is fallible. It wasn't written for us; it was written specifically for the people in the place and time of its writing. It's the uninspired, fallible translation of the inspired infallible word of God. To be used by us as an example. (Jude 7:1) Things change. Things were different to Adam than to Moses, Lot or Jude.

They're wrong. The dates they're using depend on false assumptions and premises which have been debunked.

Well, then, the case is closed. If you say they've debunked it must be true and for good reason. And here I thought I had an argument. Maybe it's a question of tradition over truth. How do each measure up? In Hebrew, in English, in Swahili?

The direction of influence is assumed without rational reasons. In my experience this occurs due to confluence of 3 factors:
  1. a preference for Greek logic and philosophy

Septuagint?

  1. the absence of access to Jewish texts and sources of information

Preferences?

  1. Christian indoctrination and dogma which demonizes Jews and Judaism

And what of the Jews demonization of the Christians?

But simply: it is assumed Jews and Judaism are wrong and have been corrupted without just, and rational reasons. It's an argument from ignorance.

Aren't both complicit in the specific case of the immortal soul? (Ezekiel 18:4; Matthew 10:28)

Well. I see you either willfully ignored or missed what I wrote about the Neshama in the previous thread. Which is it?

Previous post? Mine was the OP.

FALSE ASSUMPTION: There is only one Hebrew word for soul.

Did I say otherwise? What does eye for eye, tooth for tooth, soul for soul mean in Hebrew?

The way I see it I offered a very brief and simple argument with some references and I'm not even sure of your position. You don't seem to have an argument but only an opinion. Maybe a scholarly supported one, I don't know, but that doesn't mean much to me.
 

The Hammer

Skald
Premium Member
Don't the Muslims use the same argument with Arabic and the Quran?
I have no dog in this fight.

But...

This is an issue with any and all translations from one language to another.

"Whilst translation may achieve the highest level of accuracy possible, there is a sense that it will never truly capture every nuance of the language and culture from which it is being translated."

Concepts, symbology, idioms, etc do not translate well or at all. Therefore much meaning is lost.
 

Balthazzar

N. Germanic Descent
From a strictly Biblical perspective the term soul is a somewhat problematic translation due to the origin of the English word soul itself. It is derived from the Old English words sawol and sawel as found in the 8th century poem Beowulf and Vespasian Psalter. From the Germanic sailian and Old English selian meaning to bind, which was the ritualistic practice of binding a corpse of the dead in the grave in order to prevent a return as a ghost, and this brings us to the difficulty. The Bible teaches that once you die you are simply dead until a possible resurrection from the grave. The combination of the pagan superstitious and the more practical Biblical understanding of death would naturally mix, obscuring the real meaning of the Bible.

As the Encyclopaedia Judaica states: "Only in the post-biblical period, did a clear and firm belief in the immortality of the soul take hold . . . and become one of the cornerstones of the Jewish and Christian faiths."

In 322 BCE Alexander the Great's conquest of the Middle East brought him eventually to Jerusalem, where he was welcomed by the Jews. Greek culture and philosophy began then to influence Jewish thinking, including the idea of the immortal soul. Philo of Alexandria, for example, was a Jewish philosopher of the first century CE and a great admirer of Plato, who's Dialogues explained the soul as "immortal and imperishable, and our souls will truly exist in another world!" Greek philosophy having influenced Jewish thinking would, of course, naturally do the same with Christian thinking, but the writers of the Bible had an entirely different perspective on the soul.

The difficulty of translation in a Biblical sense probably first occurred to Ulfilas, Christian missionary and Bible translator to the Goths of the 4th century. This was a period of time when pagan influence began to heavily infiltrate Christian thinking. Ulfilas translated the Bible from the Greek into Goth, even devising the Gothic alphabet. He would have translated the Greek psyche into the Gothic saiwala. It was, not unlike the difficulties later raised in the translation into English, a difficult task since the word that comes closest has a similar meaning of being animated, but also has the superstitious attachment.

The Greek Psykhe
The Greek psykhe, according to Greek English lexicons, means "life, the conscious self or personality as the center of emotions, desires and affections. A living being." Even Greek philosophers were not entirely consistent in their application of psykhe, to Plato it had three parts, the intelligible being immortal and the other two being mortal. One divine, one immortal and one mortal. Psykhe was also applied to the butterfly or moth, due to its metamorphosis, thought to be similar to the immortal soul rising from the dead.

The Greek psykhe can also be used as a personal pronoun, for example at John 10:24 / 2 Corinthians 12:15 / Hebrews 10:38. Matthew 10:28; 26:38 are examples of the mortality of the Greek psykhe.

The Hebrew Nephesh
The Hebrew nephesh comes from a root word meaning to "breath." In the literal sense a soul is "a breather." Any living creature that breathes air is a soul. Since the blood carries the air we breathe throughout the body the soul is, in effect, the blood of any breathing creature. Genesis 9:4 confirms this by the dietary restriction against eating blood. So it was that when preparing meat for food the blood had to be poured onto the ground rather than eaten, out of respect for the creator's gift of life. (Leviticus 17:3; Acts 15:20)

Notice that by comparing various translations the Hebrew Nephesh is sometimes translated as life, as well as soul.

When the Jewish Publication Society of America produced their translation of the Torah, H.M. Orlinsky, then editor in chief of the Hebrew Union College pointed out that the word soul had been eliminated: "Other translators have interpreted it to mean 'soul,' which is completely inaccurate. The Bible does not say we have a soul. 'Nefesh' is the person himself, his need for food, the very blood in his veins, his being." - The New York Times, October 12, 1962.

The Soul Is Mortal
Jehovah God created life (Psalm 36:9) so the soul, being the blood, belonged to him. (Ezekiel 18:4) He gave man the permission to take the life of animals to eat after the flood, but only if they poured the blood of the animal out on the ground as an indication that life, the soul or blood was His and sacred. (Genesis 9:1-6)

When Abel was murdered God told Cain his brother's blood cried out, meaning that something sacred, Abel's soul, his blood was wrongfully taken and that demanded retribution. (Genesis 4:10) The blood of a murdered person defiles the earth. (Numbers 35:33; Genesis 9:5-6) A residential area where a murdered person was found, and it was not known who killed the person in order to pay soul for soul, or blood for blood, was defiled until a blood sacrifice was made. (Deuteronomy 21:1-9) Sacrifice for the atonement of sins was the only acceptable use for blood with God, thus for the death to mankind Adam's sin brought only the blood of Christ could atone. (Leviticus 17:10-11; Hebrews 12:24)

The term dead soul is used in the Bible simply meaning a dead person. No longer breathing, no blood pumping through the body, no longer animated. (Leviticus 19:28; 21:1, 11; 22:4; Numbers 5:2; 6:6; Haggai 2:13)

References
"There is no dichotomy of body and soul in the O T. The Israelite saw things concretely, in their totality, and thus he considered men as persons and not as composites. The term nepes [nephesh], though translated by our word soul, never means soul as distinct from the body or the individual person . . . . The term psykhe is the N T word corresponding with nepes. It can mean the principle of life, life itself, or the living being." - New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967), Vol. XIII, pp. 449, 450.

"Immortality of the soul is a Greek notion formed in ancient mystery cults and elaborated by the philosopher Plato." - Presbyterian Life, May 1, 1970, p. 35

Plato, quoting Socrates said: "The soul, . . . if it departs pure, dragging with it nothing of the body, . . . goes away into that which is like itself, into the invisible, divine, immortal, and wise, and when it arrives there it is happy, freed from error and folly and fear . . . and all the other human ills, and . . . lives in truth through all after time with the gods." - Phaedo, 80, D, E; 81, A.

"The Hebrew term for 'soul' (nefesh) was used by Moses . . . . signifying an 'animated being' and applicable equally to nonhuman beings. . . . New Testament usage of psyche ('soul') was comparable to nefesh." - The New Encyclopædia Britannica (1976), Macropædia, Vol. 15, p. 152.

"The belief that the soul continues its existence after the dissolution of the body is a matter of philosophical or theological speculation rather than of simple faith, and is accordingly nowhere expressly taught in Holy Scripture." - The Jewish Encyclopedia (1910), Vol. VI, p. 564.


I've always viewed a soul to be individualized, perhaps per genetic makeup. Maybe this is why souls are viewed to be both mortal and immortal. It's about genetics, dna and evolutionary development. Genetics and dna being bound to specific structures go through changes in coding and sequencing. Life continues through the coupling of two souls becoming one soul through procreation and childbirth. I think people can get caught up in "superstitious" applications and definitions without considering the more practical application and definition of terms. Soul may equate to our genetic coding and ongoing development via childbirth, adaptation, and evolution.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Don't the Muslims use the same argument with Arabic and the Quran?

They're right, Hugh. Do you actually think that reading an English translation is the same as reading and understanding it in the original language.

The Quran is poetry. Cadence. The melody that is applied to it brings out the poetry and the rhythm. And thank you for taking me off ignore. It's ridiculous to call oneself a researcher while ignoring knowledge which is being shared.

Why did the church object to people reading the Bible?

I can only speculate. It's probably a power grab. Relevance? What does that have to do with the simple fact. You're assuming there's only one word for soul in the Hebrew bible. The Nephesh is NOT the immortal soul. It's what vivifies the body. It's written in the Hebrew in the book you call Leviticus. So much of this would be cleared up if you were reading the text in the original language. You have no idea.

Well, then, the case is closed.

It's the opposite of closed. Hugh??? ~sigh~ Brother, please? When a theory gets refuted, that puts the question back into agnostic territory. That's OPEN. Very very open. Not closed. ~shakes-my-head~

:facepalm:

Septuagint?

It's useful for deciphering the Greek scriptures. Nothing more.

Preferences?

The preference for any researcher should be the inclusion of facts and the understanding of the limits of their own capabilities. Agnosticism is your friend. However, there is a great deal that can be learned by understanding how and why a subject cannot be known. Understanding is always better than knowing. Always. Understanding is not limited in the same way as knowing.

And what of the Jews demonization of the Christians?

Repugnant. Understandable, but, horrid and counter productive.

Aren't both complicit in the specific case of the immortal soul? (Ezekiel 18:4; Matthew 10:28)

I'll need to read these citations before commenting on them. However, in the case of the immortal soul, the Jews who demonize Christianity are the irreligious rebels of Reform Judaism and their academic partners. Sadly, those academic partners are the ones whom you are assuming are credible. And the leaders of the Reform Movement will deny and hide their demonization of Christianity. They lie by omission. Sneaky-sneaky. They even lie to themselves.

Previous post? Mine was the OP.

See below. I expect that you put me on ignore and didn't read what I wrote. Perhaps I'm wrong, there's many possible reasons why you are not remembering this:

1720635141048.png


Did I say otherwise? What does eye for eye, tooth for tooth, soul for soul mean in Hebrew?

You didn't say it explicitly, no. But the assumption is there. That's where 99% of miscomprehension originates: the hidden assumption. It's hiding in plain sight. You're doing it right now. If you did not assume there was only one word for soul, you would never have brought the example above.

What's the Hebrew word in the verse you've brought above?

אִם־כֹּ֖פֶר יוּשַׁ֣ת עָלָ֑יו וְנָתַן֙ פִּדְיֹ֣ן נַפְשׁ֔וֹ כְּכֹ֥ל אֲשֶׁר־יוּשַׁ֖ת עָלָֽי​

What's the immortal soul?

וַיִּ֩יצֶר֩ יְהֹוָ֨ה אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶת־הָֽאָדָ֗ם עָפָר֙ מִן־הָ֣אֲדָמָ֔ה וַיִּפַּ֥ח בְּאַפָּ֖יו נִשְׁמַ֣ת חַיִּ֑ים וַיְהִ֥י הָֽאָדָ֖ם לְנֶ֥פֶשׁ חַיָּֽה:​

What does King Solomon write?

נֵ֣ר יְ֖הוָה נִשְׁמַ֣ת אָדָ֑ם חֹ֜פֵ֗שׂ כָּל־חַדְרֵי־בָֽטֶן​
The punchline is: King Solomon disagrees with you. The book you call Genesis disagrees with you. Exodus disagrees with you. Leviticus too.

he way I see it I offered a very brief and simple argument with some references

It is grossly incomplete. There is an assumption being made which you are, at the very least, reluctant to acknowledge, and this ignores Christian demonization of the Jew in general, and JW demonization not only of Jews, but also of anything found in the Talmud.

I think you should at least be honest with yourself, even if you cannot or will not be honest in public. I understand the JW organization. I love you all, I think you do excellent work, and are making the world a better place in-spite of the gaps in knowledge.

Sincerely,
 
Last edited:

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
The soul is just the qualities and characteristics that compose one unified self being. Anything that is truly alive has a soul; animals and humans.

There is the heart or character, the mind, and the will of a self that comprise what a soul is. As souls we are units of being that are the experiencers of consciousness. We are not consciousness, we are the experiencers of it; the soul. Consciousness illuminates and enlightens the soul. The brain is that which gives consciousness to the soul self and environmental awareness to the soul. Self is not ego, it's the nature of identity; apart of being a soul.
 
Don't the Muslims use the same argument with Arabic and the Quran? Why did the church object to people reading the Bible? Why were there people destroying printing presses and various English translations? Why did the scribes replace God's name in the Bible with the generic term LORD?

In a sense there is some degree of logic in that, though it's irrelevant. The modern Bible - English or any other language - is fallible. It wasn't written for us; it was written specifically for the people in the place and time of its writing. It's the uninspired, fallible translation of the inspired infallible word of God. To be used by us as an example. (Jude 7:1) Things change. Things were different to Adam than to Moses, Lot or Jude.



Well, then, the case is closed. If you say they've debunked it must be true and for good reason. And here I thought I had an argument. Maybe it's a question of tradition over truth. How do each measure up? In Hebrew, in English, in Swahili?



Septuagint?



Preferences?



And what of the Jews demonization of the Christians?



Aren't both complicit in the specific case of the immortal soul? (Ezekiel 18:4; Matthew 10:28)



Previous post? Mine was the OP.



Did I say otherwise? What does eye for eye, tooth for tooth, soul for soul mean in Hebrew?

The way I see it I offered a very brief and simple argument with some references and I'm not even sure of your position. You don't seem to have an argument but only an opinion. Maybe a scholarly supported one, I don't know, but that doesn't mean much to me.
People could not afford to buy a Bible back then.
 
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