The Paradox of Atheism and God

[Unfettered]

Ahm, let's see if I can make these sufficiently different ...

True: Through the window I can presently see five parked cars.

True: Traffic police use cameras because they provide a more objective form of evidence than witness statements on their own.

True: Authoritative sources assert that the reality of the Higgs boson has been satisfactorily demonstrated.

True: According to the conventions of mathematics, 2 + 2 = 11 (base 3).

Well, I understand all those and agree that they are true statements.

Again, what prompted the previous post of yours was asking if the definition I provided was harmonious with yours. Not sure if you still felt there was something about it that was incongruous with yours? Is there something yet incompatible in here:

"truth is knowledge of things as they are, and as they were"

 

[blü 2]

Well, I understand all those and agree that they are true statements.

Again, what prompted the previous post of yours was asking if the definition I provided was harmonious with yours. Not sure if you still felt there was something about it that was incongruous with yours? Is there something yet incompatible in here:

"truth is knowledge of things as they are, and as they were"

I continue to see truth as a quality of statements. And I'd put 'accurate' in there somewhere.

For example, I wouldn't call accurate knowledge 'truth'.

PS Though I would call it 'true' as a synonym for 'accurate'.

 

[Unfettered]

I continue to see truth as a quality of statements. And I'd put 'accurate' in there somewhere.

For example, I wouldn't call accurate knowledge 'truth'.

A quality of statements... so if I re-worded your understanding this way:

Truth exists only as a characteristic of an accurate statement.

...does that re-wording communicate the idea correctly?

Or inversely, where there is a statement that is not accurate, therein is not found truth.

?

 

[Heyo]

True: According to the conventions of mathematics, 2 + 2 = 11 (base 3).

A true statement but it doesn't correspond to objective reality. (Mathematics being entirely abstract, alas an objective un-reality.)
I agree with your correspondence model but would extend it (as you obviously have without stating so) to the objective un-reality.
(Sorry to jump in, just want to help. I like your conversation and how it is conducted.)

 

[blü 2]

A quality of statements... so if I re-worded your understanding this way:

Truth exists only as a characteristic of an accurate statement.

...does that re-wording communicate the idea correctly?

Or inversely, where there is a statement that is not accurate, therein is not found truth.

?

Before I forget to say it, thank you for making me think through these things again.

Yes, that's what I'm intending to convey.

 

[Unfettered]

Before I forget to say it, thank you for making me think through these things again.

Yes, that's what I'm intending to convey.

You're welcome. And thank you for this refreshingly sensible discussion.

OK, I believe that I'm in accord with your definition of truth sufficiently to continue our discussion. So going back...

One of the problems of theology ─ or delights, depending on where you're standing ─ is that it has no useful definition of "truth".

Now that we've arrived at a useful definition of truth, we need to address the other problems of theology to which you allude. What is the next problem with theology that needs to be addressed?

 

[PureX]

Next time someone you know dies, see if the universe disappears.

It does for them ... maybe. The thing is, you don't know what the universe is, or does. You just choose to believe you do. And you are doggedly determined to keep believing it, even though you can't actually know it to be so. This is why objectivity is a sacred myth to the materialist, and why you fight so hard to maintain it as the truth. Just as God is a sacred myth to the religious theist, and why he fights so hard to maintain it as the truth.

It's all about belief: the blind presumption and assertion that what you believe to be the truth, is the truth.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Some people may think that atheism is the rejection of God, but what if atheism could actually incidentally end up the path to God? What if God exists, but not in the way that most religions claim? What if God is not a personal being, but a transcendent reality that can only be experienced through reason, logic, and evidence? Something which some atheists seem to be very familiar with.

Some people may say that atheists are doomed to hell for not following the Bible, but what is hell? Is it a literal place of fire and torment, or is it a metaphor for the suffering and despair that we create for ourselves and others? Is hell something that God imposes on us, or something that we impose on ourselves? Is hell eternal, or can it be overcome?

Perhaps hell is just especially real if one makes it a fear of theirs and a mental reality. Perhaps hell is the result of ignorance, hatred, and violence. Perhaps hell is the absence of love, compassion, and peace. Perhaps hell is not something that awaits us after death, but something that we experience in life.

If that is the case, then atheism may very well be the path to God. By rejecting the false and harmful notions of God that are propagated by some religions, atheists may be closer to the true nature of God than those who blindly follow them. By seeking truth and knowledge through reason and evidence, atheists "may" potentially be able to glimpse the divine order and beauty of the universe. By living morally and ethically without fear or coercion, atheists may be able to express the love and kindness that are the essence of God. In my opinion.

Maybe God does not care about what we believe, but about what we do. Maybe God does not want us to worship him, but to respect him. Maybe God does not demand our obedience, but our freedom.

Maybe atheism is not fully the rejection of God, but may end up one of many paths to the discovery of God.

Atheists are simply people without a God.

There is just no real need or reason to have one, so it's not regarded as being necessary or practical in any way.

Death is the only road or path everyone is headed for at the end, with no reasonable provision made for clinging onto something as fantastical like a mute and unresponsive god that just isn't there, so no need for fantastical reassurances is required of atheists because it just won't make any difference whatsoever from a rational standpoint.

 

[PureX]

Atheists are simply people without a God.

There is just no real need or reason to have one, so it's not regarded as being necessary or practical in any way.

And yet the vast majority of humans globally, and throughout history, have felt exactly that need.

Death is the only road or path everyone is headed for at the end, with no reasonable provision made for clinging onto something as fantastical like a mute and unresponsive god that just isn't there, so no need for fantastical reassurances is required of atheists because it just won't make any difference whatsoever from a rational standpoint.

There is far more to a person's need for faith in God than fear of death. But by all means, you hang onto that childish biased reasoning that allows you to feel so superior. You are all that matters, after all.

 

[Mock Turtle]

And yet the vast majority of humans globally, and throughout history, have felt exactly that need.

There is far more to a person's need for faith in God than fear of death. But by all means, you hang onto that childish biased reasoning that allows you to feel so superior. You are all that matters, after all.

Yes, it's just so easy to ignore religious education/indoctrination (of children) so as to bolster one's arguments.

 

[PureX]

All of which is easily dismissed once they become adults. If they so choose. And yet theism remains the choice of billions, and it always has. And oh, wait a minute, how did it become so culturally pervasive in the first place? I guess all those cultures all over the world and throughout human history just liked instituting theological ideals that they didn't actually need or want or agree with ... just because they wanted to enslave themselves to ignorance, and to spite the very few superior atheists among them.

 

[Mock Turtle]

All of which is easily dismissed once they become adults. If they do choose. And yet theism remains the choice of billions, and it always has. And oh, wait a minute, how did it become do culturally pervasive in the first place? I guess all those cultures all over the world and throughout human history just liked instituting theological ideals they didn't actually need or want or agree with ... just because they wanted to enslave themselves in ignorance, and to spite the very few superior atheists among them.

That easy? Which world do you live in - given it tends to become culture and peer pressure. When kids aren't indoctrinated then we might get some fair results. And not notice apostasy for one religion - a sign if any that such was created by humans.

 

[PureX]

That easy? Which world do you live in - give it tends to become culture and peer pressure. When kids aren't indoctrinated so we might get some fair results. And not notice apostasy for one religion - a sign if any that such was created by humans.

So, if they disagree with you, theologically, they must be mindless robots. Isn't that where this line of reasoning ends up?

 

[Mock Turtle]

So, if they disagree with you, theologically, they must be mindless robots. Isn't that where this line of reasoning ends up?

Of course not, but dismissing the way religious beliefs are mostly passed on, as if this has no effects, is being a bit light-headed.

 

[Twilight Hue]

And yet the vast majority of humans globally, and throughout history, have felt exactly that need.

There is far more to a person's need for faith in God than fear of death. But by all means, you hang onto that childish biased reasoning that allows you to feel so superior. You are all that matters, after all.

It just applies to atheists where any need for believing in a God just isn't an issue.

As far as those who harbor a superiority complex, I'd think religion can exemplify as being a breeding ground for developing considerable feelings of superiority.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

So, if they disagree with you, theologically, they must be mindless robots. Isn't that where this line of reasoning ends up?

See, it's misrepresentations like this that lead so many of us to believe you do not debate this subject in good faith.

No, being indoctrinated at a young age, or being born into a culture or society where religion is absolutely pervasive, does not make you a "mindless robot". Nobody has said that, and nothing Mock Turtle said could reasonably or honestly be said to be even close to resembling that statement.

 

[PureX]

Of course not, but dismissing the way religious beliefs are mostly passed on, as if this has no effects, is being a bit light-headed.

No, assuming that people pass on beliefs culturally that they don't need or want or agree with is what's weak-minded.

 

[PureX]

See, it's misrepresentations like this that lead so many of us to believe you do not debate this subject in good faith.

No, being indoctrinated at a young age, or being born into a culture or society where religion is absolutely pervasive, does not make you a "mindless robot". Nobody has said that, and nothing Mock Turtle said could reasonably or honestly be said to be even close to resembling that statement.

But clearly it makes one weak-minded, as they haven't the courage or wisdom to reject that cultural religious indoctrination as you superior atheists have. Isn't that right?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

No, assuming that people pass on beliefs culturally that they don't need or want or agree with is what's weak-minded.

Are you seriously suggesting that the culture in which you are born and the beliefs in which you are raised have no impact whatsoever on whether or not you are likely to agree with or want to have certain beliefs as an adult?

Seriously?

Do you think everyone just gets to, say, 18 and instantly forgets or disregards every influence upon them from birth and becomes an entirely free-minded individual, devoid of any social influence or indoctrination, totally free to think and believe anything only by the dictates of their rational, free-thinking conscience?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

But clearly it makes one weak-minded, as they haven't the courage or wisdom to reject that cultural religious indoctrination as you superior atheists have. Isn't that right?

No. It's not a matter of wisdom or courage and nobody is saying that. Please stop projecting these insecurities.