The Paradox of Atheism and God

viole · Oct 3, 2023

dybmh said:
Not to the Jewish people. At best Thor would be a revelation of God to other people in another time in another place.

With all due respect, who cares about the Jewish people beliefs? Beliefs do not determine truths about ontologies.You are not addressing my question.

What prevents a pagan to claim that it was instead Thor, who revealed Himself to the Jews as Jeowah? Or whatever you call your God.

Ciao

- viole

dybmh · Oct 3, 2023

viole said:
That does not answer my question. Isn't that possible that it was Thor, instead, who manifested Himself as the God go the OT, to those people in the Middle East?

If not, why not?

Ciao

- viole

I answered the question.

Why not?

Exodus 3 is the ideal resource.

This recap of the Mt. Sinai event is also good:

ונשמרתם מאד לנפשתיכם כי לא ראיתם כל־תמונה ביום דבר יהוה אליכם בחרב מתוך האש׃
Take therefore good heed to yourselves; for you saw no manner of form on the day when the Lord spoke to you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire;

viole · Oct 3, 2023

dybmh said:
I answered the question.

View attachment 83037

Why not?

Exodus 3 is the ideal resource.

This recap of the Mt. Sinai event is also good:

ונשמרתם מאד לנפשתיכם כי לא ראיתם כל־תמונה ביום דבר יהוה אליכם בחרב מתוך האש׃
Take therefore good heed to yourselves; for you saw no manner of form on the day when the Lord spoke to you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire;

So, it is entirely possible that Thor is the real God, and Jeowah is just how He chose to reveal Himself to the Jewish people.
Correct?

If not, why not?

Ciao

- viole

Revoltingest · Oct 3, 2023

viole said:
So, I could equally say that it is instead Thor who chose to reveal Himself as the God of the OT.

Would you accept that as a viable possibility?

Ciao

- viole

Invented gods can do whatever they want.
And the inventors can change their gods ad hoc.
The system is bulletproof.

dybmh · Oct 3, 2023

viole said:
With all due respect, who cares about the Jewish people beliefs?

You made a claim with a baseless assumption. Then you asked me questions about the god of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.

viole said:
Beliefs do not determine truths about ontologies.You are not addressing my question.

Indeed I am.

viole said:
What prevents a pagan to claim that it was instead Thor, who revealed Himself to the Jews as Jeowah? Or whatever you call your God.

They can claim whatever they want.

Your statement, your little theorum, was assuming that God cannot reveal itself at different time, in different places, to different people in different ways.

You said:

viole said:
If I pray to Thor, and you pray to Jesus, then it follows that at least one of us is worshipping something that does not exist.

That's included an uundeclared baseless assumtion. The gnostic-atheist claim is defeated.

viole · Oct 3, 2023

dybmh said:
That's included an uundeclared baseless assumtion. The gnostic-atheist claim is defeated.

I asked a very simple question. If God can choose to impersonate other gods, depending on culture and such, as you claimed, what makes you think that the God you believe in is not the impersonation of another God?

What makes you think you are not worshiping Thor, after all?

Ciao

- viole

dybmh · Oct 3, 2023

viole said:
That does not answer my question.

You asked about the 10 commandments. You're getting lost. You asked me multiple questions.

Here let me consolidate them.

viole said:
Is that in line with Moses commandments that there is only one God? How does it work exactly?

The 10 commandments are talking about physical idols. That is how it works. The verse from Genesis 35 proves that the 10 commandments are talking about idols, not gods. Therefore the 10 commandments.

viole said:
Isn't that possible that it was Thor, instead, who manifested Himself as the God go the OT, to those people in the Middle East?

No. I have answered this question already. I will zoom in on the answer. If this is not clear, please define Thor, and I will make it clearer. Sadly, I need to set awway from the internet, but I will be happy to proceed and contiinuee to answer your questions either this evening or tomorrow.

viole · Oct 3, 2023

dybmh said:
You asked about the 10 commandments. You're getting lost. You asked me multiple questions.

Here let me consolidate them.

The 10 commandments are talking about physical idols. That is how it works. The verse from Genesis 35 proves that the 10 commandments are talking about idols, not gods. Therefore the 10 commandments.

No. I have answered this question already. I will zoom in on the answer. If this is not clear, please define Thor, and I will make it clearer. Sadly, I need to set awway from the internet, but I will be happy to proceed and contiinuee to answer your questions either this evening or tomorrow.

View attachment 83039

You are back in your irrational mode.

I asked a very simple question. If God can choose to impersonate other gods, depending on culture and such, as you claimed, what makes you think that the God you believe in is not the impersonation of another God?

What makes you think you are not worshiping Thor, after all?

Ciao

- viole

dybmh · Oct 3, 2023

viole said:
I asked a very simple question. If God can choose to impersonate other gods, depending on culture and such, as you claimed, what makes you think that the God you believe in is not the impersonation of another God?

What makes you think you are not worshiping Thor, after all?

Ciao

- viole

It's because there can be only 1 literally infinite formless deity which is the source for everything else. There cannot be two of those.

If Thor has a form, then it cannot be the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.

viole · Oct 3, 2023

dybmh said:
It's because there can be only 1 literally infinite formless deity which is the source for everything else. There cannot be two of those.

If Thor has a form, then it cannot be the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.

View attachment 83040

LOL. why not?

And by the way, increasing the font size of writings , does not made them truer. And can be easily defeated as a manifestation of Thor to your people.

Your logical fallacy is so big that it is almost embarrassing. You are arbitrarily setting the qualities of a God, so that your God is the only candidate. That is clearly ridiculous.

For instance, why do you think that there can only be one God? Any non question begging answers, are welcome.

Ciao

- viole

soulsurvivor · Oct 3, 2023

PoetPhilosopher said:
Some people may think that atheism is the rejection of God, but what if atheism could actually incidentally end up the path to God? What if God exists, but not in the way that most religions claim? What if God is not a personal being, but a transcendent reality that can only be experienced through reason, logic, and evidence? Something which some atheists seem to be very familiar with.

Atheists do not believe in any reality except what we can observe physically. So, they definitely don't believe in a 'transcendent reality'. If you find any atheist who believes in such a non-physical reality, please provide a link describing such an atheist.

However, even if atheist do not believe in a personal nor do they believe in a 'transcendent' impersonal one, a path to God is always available to everyone - believers, polytheists, atheists, communists etc. God does not demand that anyone believes in him or is obedient to him. But God does ask that we take care of the 'least of these' as Jesus puts it in NT or take care of the poor and oppressed. Just doing that is enough, and the path to God will be achieved.

viole · Oct 3, 2023

soulsurvivor said:
God does not demand that anyone believes in him or is obedient to him.

So, no need to challenge the default position.

soulsurvivor said:
But God does ask that we take care of the 'least of these' as Jesus puts it in NT or take care of the poor and oppressed. Just doing that is enough, and the path to God will be achieved.

Logically absurd. How can a being not care if you believe in Him, or being obedient to Him, while requiring us to do what He asks us to do?

As usual, another display of inherent Christian irrationality.

Ciao

- viole

dybmh · Oct 3, 2023

viole said:
LOL. why not?

That's the english language. If you parse the words into a conjunctive defintion, it is clear. There can be only one god which matches ALL of those qualities simultaneously.

viole said:
And by the way, increasing the font size of writings , does not made them truer.

You said I did not answer the question. That was false. The increased font was showing you that I did in fact answer the question. It was TRUE I answered the question. What you said was FALSE

viole said:
And can be easily defeated as a manifestation of Thor to your people.

As I said. If you define Thor, I can clearly show that what you're saying is false.

viole said:
Your logical fallacy is so big that it is almost embarrassing. You are arbitrarily setting the qualities of a God, so that your God is the only candidate. That is clearly ridiculous.

Not true. We have debated before, so I know that when you react this way, you have lost the argument.

It is not arbitrary; that is why I brought the written Torah.

viole said:
For instance, why do you think that there can only be one God? Any non question begging answers, are welcome.

There can be only one literally infinite god which is the source for everything else. The two conditions are "literally infinite" AND "the source for everything else". Those two conditions can only be statisfied by 1 formless nameless primordial god.

If there is a 2nd "god" it is not the source of everything else. It really is that simple. That is how it is described in the Torah.

Any other questions?

soulsurvivor · Oct 3, 2023

viole said:
Logically absurd. How can a being not care if you believe in Him, or being obedient to Him, while requiring us to do what He asks us to do?

As usual, another display of inherent Christian irrationality.

Ooh, your logic is sooo impressive. Actually, I did not say God requires anything. He just wants you to take care of the poor and asks that, no requirement at all.

BTW, I am not a Christian.

viole · Oct 3, 2023

dybmh said:
As I said. If you define Thor, I can clearly show that what you're saying is false.

You cannot. Not without begging the question.

Because anything you know about your God, is a manifestation of Thor. He decided to manifest Himself as the God of the Bible. And not the other way around, as you probably believe. In fact, it can be proven that your God is false, because of that.

And any conceptions you might have about God, His infinite qualities, His uniqueness, are nothing but the way Thor decided to present them to you. You simply believe in what Thor decided you to believe in. That is what God different impersonation to humanity entail. As you claimed.

So, welcome to the pagan world

Ciao

- viole

Heyo · Oct 3, 2023

soulsurvivor said:
Atheists do not believe in any reality except what we can observe physically. So, they definitely don't believe in a 'transcendent reality'. If you find any atheist who believes in such a non-physical reality, please provide a link describing such an atheist.

Atheists do not believe in any reality where gods exist. Some of them are also philosophical naturalists. Philosophical naturalists do not believe in any reality except what we can observe physically.
I am an atheist (by colloquial definition) and I believe in the existence of realms beyond the physical (though I don't call those "real").
Mathematics (the realm of shapes and numbers) has a remarkable internal consistency and is a valuable tool to describe the natural world.
Gods could theoretically also be part of that realm or they could have their own but nobody has as yet found any god that has internal consistency or relation to the real world.

viole · Oct 3, 2023

soulsurvivor said:
Ooh, your logic is sooo impressive. Actually, I did not say God requires anything. He just wants you to take care of the poor and asks that, no requirement at all.

BTW, I am not a Christian.

My logic is not impressive at all. People sometimes erroneously think I am somewhat smart, but what I am doing here is the intellectual equivalent of stealing lolly-pops from little children.

I would expect a ten years old with average intelligence to have the same skills, I present here. And I do not care in the slightest if you are a Christian or not. I do not associate truth claims with the metaphysical position of the claimer.

You claimed that God does not care if we believe in Him, or we obeyed him, while still wanting something from us.

How is that logically possible?

- viole

dybmh · Oct 3, 2023

viole said:
And can be easily defeated as a manifestation of Thor to your people.

Please define Thor.

viole said:
You cannot. Not without begging the question.

Because anything you know about your God, is a manifestation of Thor. He decided to manifest Himself as the God of the Bible. And not the other way around, as you probably believe. In fact, it can be proven that your God is false, because of that.

And any conceptions you might have about God, His infinite qualities, His uniqueness, are nothing but the way Thor decided to present them to you. You simply believe in what Thor decided you to believe in. That is what God different impersonation to humanity entail. As you claimed.

So, welcome to the pagan world

Ciao

- viole

I see that you are not defining your terms. Why not? If you cannot define Thor, then you made another baseless claim. That's 2. It's a pleasure debating you. It feels good to be a winner.

dybmh · Oct 3, 2023

viole said:
So, welcome to the pagan world

Define pagan. If you do, I will show you it is false. That will be a nice little triple defeat for you.

viole · Oct 3, 2023

dybmh said:
Please define Thor.

Thor does not need my definition to exist. He is the god of gods, the king of kings,

your God is nothing but a manifestation of Him.

It should be obvious, by now.

But that should not be a problem for you. As you said, God manifested differently to all believers. So, why do you care of the manifestation of God that your religion expects?

You shouldn't , right?

Ciao

- viole

The Paradox of Atheism and God

Ontological Naturalist

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים

Ontological Naturalist

Pragmatic Libertarian

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים

Ontological Naturalist

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים

Ontological Naturalist

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים

Ontological Naturalist

Well-Known Member

Ontological Naturalist

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים

Well-Known Member

Ontological Naturalist

Veteran Member

Ontological Naturalist

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים

Ontological Naturalist