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The Peaceful Road?

rocala

Well-Known Member
I took great interest in @JustWondering 's post, "Americans have become ignorant pushovers".

We in the West have become accustomed to our democracy, equality and freedom of speech. Perhaps we tend to forget that this emerged from much blood and conflict. The U.S. and France had their revolutions. In Britain, a monarch was executed in opposition to the divine right of Kings. And look what it cost to end slavery.


@JustWondering wrote

" Do you honestly think all the corrupt bankers, corporations, and politicians are just going to wake up one day and spontaneously turn over a new leaf out of the goodness of their hearts? What's going to push them to reform? Asking them nicely? Come on."


@Snow White wrote

"What's going to change hearts is patience, understanding, intelligence, careful boycotting, legal use of the law, perhaps to some extent evolution, the apparent increase in humanism, etc."

So, is the peaceful road adequate for our political issues, or do we sometimes have to revert to force?
 

PoetPhilosopher

Veteran Member
So, is the peaceful road adequate for our political issues, or do we sometimes have to revert to force?

I was just really surprised that people were even talking about it as an option for some perceived threat. Sometimes I think people try to incite things, rile other people up on message boards, while they sit back. Especially foreigners who may either not understand America well, or may have incentive to stir things up. I'm not saying this is the case with @JustWondering , I'm just saying that we live in the days of diplomacy and democracy, not caveman like force as a first, second, third, fourth, etc option.

I also think there's an alternative to protesting. That sometimes does better. It's called activism.
 
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PoetPhilosopher

Veteran Member
And sure you can say that democracy is fragile in America. But look at the world we live in. Of course something like democracy will be fragile.
 

PoetPhilosopher

Veteran Member
We in the West have become accustomed to our democracy, equality and freedom of speech. Perhaps we tend to forget that this emerged from much blood and conflict. The U.S. and France had their revolutions. In Britain, a monarch was executed in opposition to the divine right of Kings. And look what it cost to end slavery.

I say, let's not go back to that. ;)
 

rocala

Well-Known Member
Thank you @Snow White for your replies. You raise some interesting points, two of which give me a little cause for concern.
Especially foreigners who may either not understand America well
At what point is a "foreigner classed as understanding America? How can you tell? Some would and do say that considering the enormous influence of the U.S. worldwide that its politics are of global concern.

The whole thing of trying to stir people up for heated protests with broad/loose aim, seems like a very Russia like thing to do.

I can assure you that it started long before Russia got involved in things. I doubt if either your or my country have total innocence here.

I say, let's not go back to that. ;)

Amen to that.:)
 

PoetPhilosopher

Veteran Member
At what point is a "foreigner classed as understanding America? How can you tell? Some would and do say that considering the enormous influence of the U.S. worldwide that its politics are of global concern.

It's true that it's hard to speak broadly on the subject when some actually do understand America. But still others, don't understand some things, and may do things like interpret the two-party system and its regular processes as being "a country at war with itself". But that's not to say that there aren't good points raised sometimes. Just that some statements, you can tell that the person may, in some cases, not have an understanding of America very well. I was just kind of speaking in general about that.
 

rocala

Well-Known Member
Fair enough @Snow White. Obviously, all countries are unique but in the west, would you say that a peaceful road is always a workable option?
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Some would and do say that considering the enormous influence of the U.S. worldwide that its politics are of global concern.

There is an old saying where i come from (north west UK) 'when America sneezes the real of the world catches a cold'
 

rocala

Well-Known Member
To elaborate on my previous post, 1968 is a good example. In that year there was major civil strife in Paris. The French president actually left the country.
Secondly, it is the year generally considered as the start of the Northern Ireland conflict. In both of these very different scenarios very many people felt let down by democracy and resorted to forceful action. Was there a more peaceful option for these people?
 

PureX

Veteran Member
The only hope for positive change in the U. S. short of a bloody revolution, now, is for the people to use their vote to clean out the government. That is to vote out of office every incumbent candidate regardless of party affiliation unless and until we get one that is willing to ACT, and not just talk about stopping the legalized bribery of government through 'Citizens United' and through the repeal of previous prohibitions imposed in the legislative houses.

But for this to happen we have to act in unity. And the oligarchs, their crooked politicians, and their media mouthpieces are currently all working hard to keep the public divided against each other by any means they can muster. Lies, bigotry, fear-mongering, ... every day brings an endless supply of reasons for us to focus our frustrations on each other, so we won't focus on the real causes. And on the real people that are actually responsible.
 

rocala

Well-Known Member
A good post @PureX and I don't think your situation is unique to the U.S. Here in the U.K. not long ago, Jeremy Corbyn, a leader of the Labour Party, had his political career effectively ruined. A man who has given much of his time to combatting racism became known as an anti-semite.
A very right-wing friend of mine, a die-hard conservative stated "Corbyn did not lose the election, the media won it". Even he could see the strong bias in what is dished up to readers and viewers.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
The whole thing of trying to stir people up for heated protests with broad/loose aim, seems like a very Russia like thing to do.
America's history is replete with heated protests and civil unrest leading to great political change.

In fact, it's literally how America was founded.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
I was reading an article that suggested that the current division in the US is due to a new business model, that has come about, due to the explosion in information technology. It has to do with subscription services. The analysis showed the evolution of information from the newspapers of the 1700's, to radio, to TV, to cable and then to the internet and social media.

Most of the large newspapers now charge you a fee to get their full content, online. They were a dying breed, until they found a way to draw people back. Since people have to pay to view, it follows that the consumers will feel that they will get more bang for their buck, if the choose paid services that can tells them what they want to hear; paid pandering.

For example, CNN will shamelessly pander to the Left and will make the Right the enemy, without a fair and impartial analysis, since their majority of their subscribers/viewers want this. This is how they get the most subscribers; birds of a feather will flock together. Most of their opinion guests are biased one way. If someone is allowed on, who shows an opposing view, it will be that one person against the mob, so the mop can always win. The Right has it own subscription outlets. The net affect is people become divided along subscriber lines. Each will frequent these preferred places, where you can go to get your dose of biased information.

This biased approach has taken root due to the feminization of culture. Women want men to tell them the truth, unless the truth is not flattering. The wife may ask the husband do I look fat in this dress. This is a loaded question, connected to feelings of insecurity and not a search for truth. The husband cannot be too truthful, if the cold hard facts would hurt her feelings. He has to learn to pander to her feelings; sugar coat it. The Left has taught their base to lead with their feelings; haters, deniers, genders, sensitivities, etc., which makes the subscriber service much easier to employ; riots were mostly peaceful.

When the Russian Trump collusion coup and scam was debunked, the subscribers on the Left did not get upset at the fact they had been lied to, for many years. They willfully fed off the lies and got a good buzz along the way; you are not fat. People who orientate themselves with their emotional needs, are like fish in the barrel for this new business model. Both sides do this and money is being made.

Objectivity requires we shut off our feelings so emotions do not bias the result. Emotions will erase data and shift the curves. There are not too many objective subscriber outlets, with a balanced treatment of the cold hard facts, due to the emotional ambiance being too warm or too cold for full objectivity without emotional bias. The feeling ambiance creates insecurity, and the need for polarized information services, to blow smoke up skirts. This polarizes people and culture.
 
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PureX

Veteran Member
America's history is replete with heated protests and civil unrest leading to great political change.

In fact, it's literally how America was founded.
It's meaningless, now.

The criminals in office have no sense of shame, or remorse. Protests are meaningless. The criminals know the protests can't be sustained, as the people have to work to live. And they can't be shamed by anything the people think or say because they don't care.

The only thing they fear is being thrown out of office, and off the lobbyist's gravy train. And so far, the people are too busy blaming each other to achieve that. And the criminals know it.

See the post above as a classic example.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
So, is the peaceful road adequate for our political issues, or do we sometimes have to revert to force?

Ultimately, it would depend on people's reasonableness and willingness to discuss their differences and reach a compromise. If we look back over the past 500 years of human history, we can see that the West did not become prosperous and powerful by being peaceful - or even decent. The age of exploration and colonization brought about great wealth and technological advancement, but was characterized by aggression, land-grabbing, slavery, atrocities, and exploitation of all kinds. In the process, the West became wealthy, powerful, turning into the modern industrialized nation-states which still exist today, while much of the rest of the world was left in a shambles.

The modern world was built up by force, and it has taken force to maintain and secure it on a global scale. As much as we try to delude ourselves into thinking otherwise, there has never really been any "peaceful" way. We defined "peace" as when the top warlords of the world occasionally decided to agree on sharing the spoils, leading to temporary lulls in fighting each other on such a grand scale.

Britain was, of course, a leading player and enjoyed a position of paramountcy in the world for a few centuries, taking lands once held by France, Spain, Portugal, Holland - who took them from their Native indigenous inhabitants.

The United States was merely an offshoot and a hybrid which manifested a continuation of the same basic processes which were set in motion.

France tried to make a play for the top spot, but Britain stopped them cold. Then Russia tried to make a play in the Crimea, and both France and Britain sided with Turkey to stop them. Then Germany tried to muscle in for what they saw as their piece of the action, and it took the combined forces of Russia, France, Britain and the U.S. to stop them. And even then, it wasn't really enough, since the Germans rebounded and came back 20 years later, when it took even more force to stop them. The Japanese were also an up-and-coming power which opposed Western colonialism and hegemony in Asia, and it also took a great deal of force, including atomic bomb horror, before they would finally capitulate.

That's what set the tone for the direction the world would take in the aftermath. War had become an industrial, scientific, and technological affair to the point where the potential destruction and devastation was so great that "the only winning move was not to play." Also, along the same lines, Russia and China became more formidable adversaries, while the U.S. was still attempting to maintain Western hegemony over the colonial and former colonial world, which was seething with resentment and anger over what the West had done to their homelands.

While the U.S. leadership was frothing at the mouth over the spread of communism, we would hear about various hot spots throughout the world, in Asia, the Middle East, Latin America, Africa - with multiple countries descending into chaos as a consequence of previous policies which built up the power and wealth of the West. Obviously, the West wanted to maintain that power, wealth, and position of paramountcy over the world, but they also wanted to prop up their image as responsible, benevolent, freedom-loving, compassionate, democratic, liberal - not like those mean old Soviets who were painted in a very unflattering light by Western propagandists. It was pretty much a sham, as it involved propping up tinpot dictatorships throughout the world, in Iran, Cuba, South Vietnam, Chile, Nicaragua, Guatemala, Panama, and many other countries throughout the world.

Now that the Cold War is over, what's left of what used to the Soviet Union is descending into chaos. China's wealth and power has grown exponentially, and they are also a major force to be reckoned with. There's still widespread poverty and misery in the former colonial world, along with the resultant political instability - while the West continues to struggle with trying to be some sort of "law enforcement" influence which is slowly waning and diminishing.

The best way to achieve peace would be for the Western leadership to start sharing the wealth and stop acting like a bunch of hypocrites. But since we know that does not suit the Western leadership or our political culture, they'll try to keep playing their current game for as long as they can. But it's clearly an uneasy situation, possibly untenable, since the Western political culture has largely been dominated by those who believe we can have our cake and eat it, too. It's not going to work in the long run.

It's worked up until now because we had the accumulated wealth, resources, and national power to maintain it - but things are starting to crack, and it's showing. There are widespread worries that the U.S. political system is in danger, threatened by those who would subvert it to something more regressive, which would be reminiscent of past governments we've seen.

Either way, it appears that the use of force will be a necessary evil. Peace is not really possible unless there is justice, as there are too many people at the top who don't want real justice (but they want to exude the appearance of it), while there are many others who don't think we can afford it, or that we don't have enough resources to sustain a just world. It might infringe upon our comfortable, insular, luxury lifestyles; people are driven to protect that, even if it means using whatever force and violence is needed to do so. That's the world order which was set in motion more than 5 centuries ago, and it's what we've been doing ever since.
 

rocala

Well-Known Member
A superb post @Stevicus thank you.

Ultimately, it would depend on people's reasonableness and willingness to discuss their differences and reach a compromise.
Yes, I totally agree.

The best way to achieve peace would be for the Western leadership to start sharing the wealth and stop acting like a bunch of hypocrites. But since we know that does not suit the Western leadership or our political culture, they'll try to keep playing their current game for as long as they can.
Yes, the compromise is now looking a lot further away.

Either way, it appears that the use of force will be a necessary evil. Peace is not really possible unless there is justice, as there are too many people at the top who don't want real justice
This is what I have long suspected. People think the system works but really it is while the conditions are right. History and perhaps economics seems to show that never lasts.
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
I took great interest in @JustWondering 's post, "Americans have become ignorant pushovers".

We in the West have become accustomed to our democracy, equality and freedom of speech. Perhaps we tend to forget that this emerged from much blood and conflict. The U.S. and France had their revolutions. In Britain, a monarch was executed in opposition to the divine right of Kings. And look what it cost to end slavery.


@JustWondering wrote

" Do you honestly think all the corrupt bankers, corporations, and politicians are just going to wake up one day and spontaneously turn over a new leaf out of the goodness of their hearts? What's going to push them to reform? Asking them nicely? Come on."


@Snow White wrote

"What's going to change hearts is patience, understanding, intelligence, careful boycotting, legal use of the law, perhaps to some extent evolution, the apparent increase in humanism, etc."

So, is the peaceful road adequate for our political issues, or do we sometimes have to revert to force?

Force is at times necessary to defend oneself. But it usually comes with baggage. On a national scale, use of force means innocent people likely get killed in the crossfire. It also tends to escalate rather than deescalate a situation and thus create a cycle of violence. So whenever possible, we should attempt peaceful means of conflict resolution. Unfortunately as a society we increasingly do not have an appetite for reasoned discussion and negotiation with people who disagree with us.
 
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