The Pearly Gates Conundrum

[columbus]

One of the most confusing teachings of Christianity and Islam, less so of Judaism, is the concept that God will judge us individually on our character at the time of death. I just don't get that. It was one of the first things that put me off of Christianity, when I was quite young.


I realize that it isn't taught so much any more, as secular humanist values percolate into traditional theism. But there was a time, not so long ago that Gandhi was consigned to the pits of Hell because he had studied Christianity and rejected Jesus as any divinity.

The way I see it, if we wind up in front of the Pearly Gates being greeted by St Peter and even Jesus, then it won't matter what we thought or did as limited humans. We'll love Jesus and repent of whatever sin we might have committed as meat-beings. If Jesus even cares about us a little, He will get that. The fact that I currently have only human authority to go on isn't because I don't want better guidance. But humans are all I have.

I think that rejecting Jesus when there is actual evidence would qualify as serious mental dysfunction. You can't really blame someone for being crazy.

My question is: "Why would God judge people for what they believed or did as limited human beings just after they found out the Truth?" Which is what traditional Islam and Christianity clearly claim God does.

Tom

 

[dantech]

I have a question for you. Do you think it's logical to leave a religion or be "put off" by it, because you dislike the way God treats you according to that religion?
Assuming the religion you are a part of is the true and only path to God, how is it that you leave it because you're not okay with the way God does things, according to that religion?

You think it's easy for me to not eat pork? To have to take 10-15 days off of work every year, not for vacation but for holidays? To have never eaten a cheese burger?

These things aren't necessarily as difficult as they sound, but it is definitely an inconvenience. I can't just take a road trip, and eat at any McDonald's, for example.

My point is, I do these things regardless of whether or not they are convenient for me because I believe in God. I believe that Judaism is the right path, and that it's laws are binding for us Jews. It would be waaayyyy easier to just stop being Jewish and eat anything I want, go out whenever I want, etc...

I'm not saying you should go back to Christianity, or that you were wrong to leave it. That's not my place to say. But I do believe that the reason for which you got "turned off" by Christianity isn't a valid one, IMHO.


To respond to your actual OP:

Judaism doesn't believe in eternal punishment so I'm not quite sure about the Christian's stance on this one.

However, why would you deserve the reward of eternal Heaven if you never believed in God, whereas some other guy had complete faith in him during his life. Why would you both deserve the same thing? That other guy also had a meat-human, limited brain. God created the universe and put counterparts to every little thing. For every good deed, you have an equivalent bad deed. He gave us each human brains with the capacity to make our own choices and to pick our own paths.

You do not deserve the same reward as someone who has devoted his life to the right path. As for eternal Hell, I don't believe you'd deserve that either, but we'll let the posters from other religions answer that one.

 

[anotherglenda]

One of the most confusing teachings of Christianity and Islam, less so of Judaism, is the concept that God will judge us individually on our character at the time of death. I just don't get that. It was one of the first things that put me off of Christianity, when I was quite young.


I realize that it isn't taught so much any more, as secular humanist values percolate into traditional theism. But there was a time, not so long ago that Gandhi was consigned to the pits of Hell because he had studied Christianity and rejected Jesus as any divinity.

The way I see it, if we wind up in front of the Pearly Gates being greeted by St Peter and even Jesus, then it won't matter what we thought or did as limited humans. We'll love Jesus and repent of whatever sin we might have committed as meat-beings. If Jesus even cares about us a little, He will get that. The fact that I currently have only human authority to go on isn't because I don't want better guidance. But humans are all I have.

I think that rejecting Jesus when there is actual evidence would qualify as serious mental dysfunction. You can't really blame someone for being crazy.

My question is: "Why would God judge people for what they believed or did as limited human beings just after they found out the Truth?" Which is what traditional Islam and Christianity clearly claim God does.

Tom

I personally believe it is beneficial to consider we will all be personally accountable for our behaviour & that nothing goes un-noticed. If everyone believed this then there would be less abuse and crime, which to my mind, would be a good thing. Too often I see bullies who act as if they have no accountability to anyone and that they are at the top of the ladder ... I personally believe they are wrong & that scripture is true that the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom & that bullies lack this wisdom. It is good to recognize we are all frail & mortal & accountable ... puts us in our place of not being head honcho & enables us to consider others with empathy since we are all in the same boat.

I believe that God is a righteous judge so I don't believe in eternal punishment ... unless death can be considered an eternal punishment, since I do believe the death penalty fits some crimes.

I think Gandhi was awesome & I believe it is for God to judge that in His full knowledge of Gandhi rather than imperfect mere mortals to judge Gandhi. I also have been judged as eternally damnable for not embracing some beliefs, but those who assume to judge me have no authority to do so since they are not God and my Creator is my judge. He chose to create me and can destroy me if He sees fit, but I trust Him with my life & with whatever may come after. My only responsibility is to be the best person He created me to be.

I don't consider that popular secular human values are as wise or valuable as God's guidance. People like the comfy path of least resistance, but that doesn't make that path right or the best one for maximum benefit for all ... no pain, no gain.

 

[seeking4truth]

I think that these descriptions of our 'judgement' are not meant to be taken literally.

The instructions of each religion are meant to be for our benefit, some of them are physical or social rules and some are spiritual.
Judgement occurs everyday as we benefit or suffer according to our behaviour. If we live in harmony with the natural(ie. religious) order we find internal and external peace and harmony.

When we die physically our spiritual journey continues and how we lived physically and socially effects the condition of our spirit and its ability to develop successfully in future.
This is the 'gate' we pass through. If we cannot progress through the gate it requires further learning before we can go on ie. judgement.(ours not God's.)

I believe heaven Hell or purgatory are all the same 'place'(maybe here!). It is our response to and use of the place that makes it Heavenly, Hellish or like purgatory.

 

[Shiranui117]

One of the most confusing teachings of Christianity and Islam, less so of Judaism, is the concept that God will judge us individually on our character at the time of death. I just don't get that. It was one of the first things that put me off of Christianity, when I was quite young.

I realize that it isn't taught so much any more, as secular humanist values percolate into traditional theism. But there was a time, not so long ago that Gandhi was consigned to the pits of Hell because he had studied Christianity and rejected Jesus as any divinity.

The way I see it, if we wind up in front of the Pearly Gates being greeted by St Peter and even Jesus, then it won't matter what we thought or did as limited humans. We'll love Jesus and repent of whatever sin we might have committed as meat-beings. If Jesus even cares about us a little, He will get that. The fact that I currently have only human authority to go on isn't because I don't want better guidance. But humans are all I have.

I think that rejecting Jesus when there is actual evidence would qualify as serious mental dysfunction. You can't really blame someone for being crazy.

My question is: "Why would God judge people for what they believed or did as limited human beings just after they found out the Truth?" Which is what traditional Islam and Christianity clearly claim God does.

Tom

We can certainly hope that all will repent and be saved, but that's not necessarily the case. I've come across people who say such outlandish things as "if I ever meet God I'll rip off His head and ____ down His neck," and mean every word of it.

In the case of people who say "I myself can't believe in Jesus because I don't find the arguments or evidence compelling, but I do respect what He taught and believe that He is a good person and a role model", I personally believe that they are going to be in better straits than those who say "I really don't care what the evidence for Jesus is, I will never believe in Him or respect Him no matter what". I believe that, if we don't believe in Jesus, the least we can do is be open to the possibility that He is Who He says He is. In this regard, I respect agnostics and agnostic atheists; their position is an honest one. They don't necessarily reject God or Jesus, as much as they find no reason to believe, and just leave the question an open-ended one.

Ultimately, I believe (and this is a rather prevalent teaching in the Eastern Orthodox Church with Traditional support) that whether we end up in Heaven or Hell is how we react to God, as in the Trinity: Father, Son and Holy Spirit, three Persons in one God, one in essence and undivided. Hellfire is the exact same fire that purifies us, and also the exact same fire as the light of Christ, and the fire of the Holy Spirit that burns in the hearts and souls of the blessed. If we love God and we have strived to be as loving and filled with light as we could, then we will experience the fire (which is God, and His light, love and presence) as joy, bliss, resplendence, like people who have been out in the light of day, and who continue to be there.

If we have firmly rejected God, and if our hearts are filled with darkness and sin and hatred, then we will experience God's fire as burning and torture, because we are in the presence of the One Whom we have rejected, like clawing at our eyes while living in a cave, then being made to come out into the light.

If we were open to God but never accepted Him, or if we were unable to complete our repentance, then I believe that God's fire will hurt for a time--like walking out into a bright sunny day after being in a shaded room, like gold being refined in the fire. We will need to adjust, and our impurities will need to be burned away, but once that's done, we are in the same state as the blessed.

I don't claim to know who will be saved or not (that's God's call, not mine!), nor do I know exactly how the Judgement will go down, but based on the analogy above, I would posit that there are four general questions to be asked:

-Did we repent from sin, or at least try to fix our lives?
-Did we accept God or at least be open to Him?
-If we knew the Truth, did we accept it and walk in it?
-If we didn't know the Truth, were we open to it, whatever it was, and did we do the best we could with what information we possessed?

If yes to these questions, then I believe that we will experience Heaven--either immediately or eventually.

 

[columbus]

I have a question for you. Do you think it's logical to leave a religion or be "put off" by it, because you dislike the way God treats you according to that religion?

It isn't mere dislike. It is the profound irrationality of the concept. That is compelling evidence that they are human inventions which have nothing to do with the Divine.

I can understand that ancient people had no more sophisticated image of a Higher Power than a human king. So they modelled God on one. These kings were irrational and arbitrary. They were perfectly capable of inflicting enormous and disproportionate punishment on anyone in their power. Failing to recognize their power was about the most serious crime anybody could commit.
I don't see how any rational person could accept this.

Tom

 

[arthra]

Well in my belief we can't really be held accountable if we're ignorant... If no one has offered you a choice then you can't choose. So the "Judgement" means that you have full knowledge and are accountable and you've made a responsible choice..
As we mature in life..by that I mean we have had a variety of experiences in life...there are undoubtedly some choices we've made that are condemned..that is, we can be ashamed of those choices. I'm unsure what they could be for everyone but for sure there are some things you've done that you're now not exactly proud of...this is what we could term having "guilt"... I think the older and more experienced we become in life ..guilt can be a natural by product. I'm not saying all our choices are bad ..just enough though to be uncomfortable when we look back on them...

So what do we do about guilt.. there are some options. (1) If the people or situations are still around us we can go to them and apologize for them...(2) We can try to make up for them by setting goals and achieving ends that are more helpful and of service to the community...i.e., "community service"; (3) We can ask God to forgive us ... forgive our sins or misdeeds.. It may be that God in His mercy and compassion will forgive us and absolve us of the guilt we have. So we can find this forgiveness in the Bible..the Qur'an and other scriptures...such as

34:9 And he said, If now I have found grace in thy sight, O LORD, let my LORD, I pray thee, go among us; for it is a stiffnecked people; and pardon our iniquity and our sin, and take us for thine inheritance.

(King James Bible, Exodus)

1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

(King James Bible, 1 John)

Say, 'If ye would love God then follow me, and God will love you and forgive you your sins, for God is forgiving and merciful.

(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 3 - Imran's Family)

 

[Glaurung]

One of the most confusing teachings of Christianity and Islam, less so of Judaism, is the concept that God will judge us individually on our character at the time of death. I just don't get that. It was one of the first things that put me off of Christianity, when I was quite young.

That's actually one of the things that attracts me to Christianity. One may escape justice in this world, but one will not escape God in the next. Virtue may cost you in this world, but God sees everything and will reward it in the next.

I realize that it isn't taught so much any more, as secular humanist values percolate into traditional theism. But there was a time, not so long ago that Gandhi was consigned to the pits of Hell because he had studied Christianity and rejected Jesus as any divinity.

At least for someone of my tradition, it's incorrect to presume to anything that we are not privy to. We don't know what happens between a particular soul and God at their judgement, only that Christ has warned us that Hell is a possibility, and that it can only be assuredly escaped by trusting in Him, receiving His Sacraments, and practising virtue. Hell is a difficult aspect of Christian belief and I admit to struggling with it myself at times. But we are asked to trust God in this and pray for the salvation of all.

Why would God judge people for what they believed or did as limited human beings just after they found out the Truth

We believe that God has revealed His will to humanity though the revelation of Christ and provided the means for our salvation though the sacraments of His church. As God has revealed a religion, human beings are obliged to accept it; those who obstinately refuse to do so are not paying their religious debt that is owed to God, and this of course is a tremendous sin. God is right to hold us to account for it.

God does not demand the impossible from us and He will judge us as we are culpable. Since God knows us infallibly, we can trust that His judgement will be completely fair and will take into account absolutely everything concerning the circumstances of each and every life.