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The Pentateuch and its sources, is it one, four, or more?

firedragon

Veteran Member
If I may, if not all, most adherents of the Jewish faith, the Christian faith, and to a lesser degree, the Islamic faith (I dont know to what degree) believe that the Pentateuch or the first five books of the Tanakh or as the Christians called it, the Old Testament was one mans work. I will refrain from calling it a revelation as most believe because in this topic of Biblical Criticism it is an approach of analysing sources, thus applying source criticism.

As you would know the Documentary Hypothesis, or the Graf-Wellhausen Hypothesis, named after the scholars who compiled it into the "classic form" as we know way back in the 1800's. Documentary Hypothesis scrutinises the pentateuch as composed of traditions known as J,E,D,P. Though wellhausens work was of course very well established in the 19th century and had scholarly consensus it has evolved much further from that while there are of course the "other view" which is that other than probably the last eight verses of the Pentateuch, everything was the Torah revealed to Moses, the verses being the eulogy of Moses in Deuteronomy 34:5-12 which are of course even questioned by Jewish Rabbi's. Going back to greater like Abraham ibn Ezra of the 12th century who claimed that it was even impossible or at least improbable that Moses himself wrote the last 12 verses. As he believed the verses about the cananites could not have been by Moses himself because until his death canonises were still present and this verse could not have been written while they were there.

Anyway this four source theory is quite well established in scholarly consensus and is a contradicting theory to other theologians who still hold fast to the one source idea born of faith.

J source. The Jahwists or Yahwists use the Tetragrammaton as God's personal name and is deemed to be the source behind most of Genesis.

E source is the tradition that uses Elohim as Gods divine name until as theorised exodus was written until the four letters are sent down to Moses and this source is supposed to have given us a lot of parts in Numbers, exodus and some parts of Genesis.

D wrote Deuteronomy or predominantly most of it as per this theory.

P literally provides the priestly narratives which are gathered by the literary analysis and they give genealogies.

Of course there was opposition to this theory and quite good ones by scholars like Umberto Cassuto who was a very scholarly preacher. Though his criticism seems to make the case that the documentary hypothesis is purely based on the word usages which was defied by other latter scholars like Joel Baden who expands on the "document theory" as Umberto assesses and he says that the usages of the Yahwists and the Elohists are mixed in some verses like in the beginning of Genesis it begins with Elohim and then moves onto YHWH Elohim in the same sentence. The conflict being, the documentary hypothesis speaks JE which was a merger of the J and E sources which took place after 722 BCE.

Nevertheless this hypothesis is breaking the notion that the Pentateuch was purely Mosaic which breaks an immense number of beliefs and premises. What do you think? Was there one source, two sources, four sources, or more sources?
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
...Documentary Hypothesis scrutinises the pentateuch as composed of traditions known as J,E,D,P. Though wellhausens work was of course very well established in the 19th century and had scholarly consensus...
Consensus is too strong a word. It had at that time a school of clever bobbleheads who agreed with one another, yes; but there were other schools. There were also strong disagreements about how things truly developed. They came up with interesting ideas and they acted as a focus for scholarship. It had some positive effects and a lot of signers. It wasn't a consensus of scholarship.

At the time evolution was a new idea, and people were trying to apply it to everything. At the time this was the scholars saying of Judaism "We don't know how, but it must have evolved. Lets figure out how," but this was not scientific in the sense that evolution was.
It involved a lot of guesswork and assumption. One cannot apply exclusively evolutionary processes to religion which develops in a mere thousand years. Evolutionary process are blind and take ages.

Particularly weak is the argument that there are two sources starting with El and Yahweh. Its fanciful. You can build a theory with it, but you're projecting assumptions that you don't need. You're assuming that two groups fuse, because you assume that these must refer to the names of Canaanite gods. What happens though to the other ten Canaanite gods? You don't know. Its an assumption. Its a model. Its not a fact.

...Of course there was opposition to this theory and quite good ones by scholars like...
Woah slow down, please. This is not a 'Scientific Theory'. This is an anthropological model. To call it a theory would require a lot of certainty which it does not possess.
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Nevertheless this hypothesis is breaking the notion that the Pentateuch was purely Mosaic which breaks an immense number of beliefs and premises. What do you think? Was there one source, two sources, four sources, or more sources?
Multiple sources, but the documentary hypothesis is merely a framework to play with ideas. It doesn't determine absolutely which sources are from where.
 

Onoma

Active Member
I'm curious, do you know of any analysis of the 4 sources that concern the addition of final form letters ?
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Consensus is too strong a word. It had at that time a school of clever bobbleheads who agreed with one another, yes; but there were other schools. There were also strong disagreements about how things truly developed. They came up with interesting ideas and they acted as a focus for scholarship. It had some positive effects and a lot of signers. It wasn't a consensus of scholarship.

It was consensus, but if you wish to change the semantics yep. Go ahead.

At the time evolution was a new idea, and people were trying to apply it to everything.

You are wrong in both things you said. I think you are trying to turn this into some scientific discussion (as in the subject Science taught in school) and I fear that is where it will go if pursued. Nevertheless, evolution (in biology) was not a new idea in the 18th century, but evolution is an old idea well known since the 14 hundreds, and the word 'evolution' doesn't apply to your idea of evolution alone mate, its just a word that means evolution. Languages evolve, markets evolve, businesses evolve, economics evolve and theories evolve.

Particularly weak is the argument that there are two sources starting with El and Yahweh. Its fanciful. You can build a theory with it, but you're projecting assumptions that you don't need. You're assuming that two groups fuse, because you assume that these must refer to the names of Canaanite gods. What happens though to the other ten Canaanite gods? You don't know. Its an assumption. Its a model. Its not a fact.

I didnt assume anything mate. You should read the OP again.

Woah slow down, please. This is not a 'Scientific Theory'. This is an anthropological model. To call it a theory would require a lot of certainty which it does not possess.

No. Its not a scientific theory. But those who opposed the documentary hypothesis like the very same person I quoted Umberto called this "science" in his lectures well documented over and over again.
 
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Onoma

Active Member
I could easily point out things in the Hebrew Bible that do not come from your 4 official " sources ", if you like
 

Onoma

Active Member
Let's start here with your real question

" What do you think? Was there one source, two sources, four sources, or more sources ? "

I asked you about final form letters because without adding them to the Aramaic scripts, Hebrew would not exist, and therefore the Pentateuch wouldn't either

So, completely relevant, actually :)

I would explain how it's drawn from the use of Egyptian Hieratic bases, but methinks that would be pointless here, even though it clearly demonstrates a source outside of the 4 official sources, which answers the question that you finished your post with



Next, I could easily demonstrate sources for Biblical conventions outside of the 4 sources

An example is the Bible's associations between divinity / rulership and the word " star ", but I get the impression you already know that the earlier cognate to " El " is " dingir " which is an ideogram of a star and signified divinity in text and commonly written next to the names of defied priest-kings ( Jesus is a priest-king in case you missed that part ) so it would be " irrelevant " because it's not from the 4 sources you listed ?

I am familiar with the 4 sources, btw ( the documentary hypothesis )
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I asked you about final form letters because without adding them to the Aramaic scripts, Hebrew would not exist, and therefore the Pentateuch wouldn't either

So, completely relevant, actually :)

Not relevant to the documentary hypothesis mate.

Next, I could easily demonstrate sources for Biblical conventions outside of the 4 sources

An example is the Bible's associations between divinity / rulership and the word " star ", but I get the impression you already know that the earlier cognate to " El " is " dingir " which is an ideogram of a star and signified divinity in text and commonly written next to the names of defied priest-kings ( Jesus is a priest-king in case you missed that part ) so it would be " irrelevant " because it's not from the 4 sources you listed ?

I am familiar with the 4 sources, btw ( the documentary hypothesis )

Its great that you are familiar with documentary hypothesis, but your point about the Sumerian origins of El or might is not relevant.

Peace.
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
which are of course even questioned by Jewish Rabbi's. Going back to greater like Abraham ibn Ezra of the 12th century who claimed that it was even impossible or at least improbable that Moses himself wrote the last 12 verses. As he believed the verses about the cananites could not have been by Moses himself because until his death canonises were still present and this verse could not have been written while they were there
The huge and very important difference between certain rabbinical authorities and various Bible critics is that even the rabbis that held that some verses were added later by a different individual hold that those were added through divine prophetic capabilities (as they say, מה לי משה ומה לי נביא אחר, roughly: what does it matter which prophet put it in?), whilst critics believe it was a badly edited mish-mash compiled over several generations by regular men.

Of course there was opposition to this theory and quite good ones by scholars like Umberto Cassuto who was a very scholarly preacher. Though his criticism seems to make the case that the documentary hypothesis is purely based on the word usages which was defied by other latter scholars like Joel Baden who expands on the "document theory" as Umberto assesses and he says that the usages of the Yahwists and the Elohists are mixed in some verses like in the beginning of Genesis it begins with Elohim and then moves onto YHWH Elohim in the same sentence. The conflict being, the documentary hypothesis speaks JE which was a merger of the J and E sources which took place after 722 BCE.
I think his main points are that the supposed editing both doesn't follow the rules set by DHers and that in some cases is way too mixed to believe to have been compiled by a later editor.
And there are others who took apart the DH, like Rabbi Amnon Bazak, Rabbi Philip Biberfeld, etc.
Anyway this four source theory is quite well established in scholarly consensus and is a contradicting theory to other theologians who still hold fast to the one source idea born of faith.
Unfortunately. But hey, you gotta do what you gotta do when you're in religious denial and the Bible makes you feel uncomfortable.

On a slightly different note, recently I found out that Wellhausen wasn't an "objective" secular scholar but a Christian with a Christian-based agenda to his research. At the end of his Prolegomena, he writes proudly on how he has now disproven Judaism and proven that the one true Israelite faith is Christianity. Yeah, the whole point of his research was to prove that Judaism is a Second Temple Era invention and Jesus was the only Jew to wise up and fight against the lying Pharisee conspirators and bring back the original Israelite religion. Go figure.
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
I think that sums up your style so that's not for any kind of valid discussion.

Peace.
Discussion of what? Do I think the DH is credible? No. Scholars far greater than I have spent years to take apart the DH. It's clearly not indestructible. Yet some people continue to adhere to it as though it's a completely solid theory. Same goes for people who are set to prove that the Israelites started out as a nomadic polytheistic tribal civilization in Canaan and slowly made their way up to two kingdoms, one in the north and one in the south and along the way, also found monotheism (though this was probably borrowed from Atenism or something). Yet there are many archeological holes (pun unintended) in that theory.

Just because the loudest group of people says x doesn't mean that there aren't other options and that I have to accept x or that x is necessarily true. I mean, if that were true, there wouldn't be any Jews today. The loudest groups are either Christians or Muslims...

Now, am I willing to discuss questions about the Tanach? Yes. Am I willing to discuss questions set up by the DHers? Also yes. But not from the point of view that holds that the DH is the One True Way And All That There Is or something.

Going back to the post you replied to, if one takes the time to look at all the holes in the theory and then looks at the people who still adhere to the theory no matter what, well, it's a wonder sometimes that religious people are considered the illogical ones...
 
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