The Perfect Conundrum?

[Whitsuntide]

This isn't meant to be really heavy - I'm just wondering if this strikes a chord with anyone?

I am struck by the fact that it seems I can never know anything for sure. I can't know what is right or wrong for sure. I will never know if the earth is old or young. I will never know if my religion or some other religion is the right one. I will never know if someone's religious book is true. For every notion I have there will be some evidence that frustrates it. There seems to be evil done by the good, and good done by the evil. It could all be real or in my imagination. Every discovery made seems to lead to greater confusion. No one can say why anything.

Its all set up so that I CAN'T KNOW ANYTHING FOR SURE. It is purposely and carefully set up that way.

This whole elaborate stage is set up to keep me in a perfect state of - not confusion, but a perfect conundrum. I mean, an endless universe, eternity, death? Come on...

And somehow I have been given the unique ability to comprehend the quandary of this existence.

In my thinking, this can't happen by chance.

Having said all that - is it really stupid to ask, what does this mean?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I am struck by the fact that it seems I can never know anything for sure. ... And somehow I have been given the unique ability to comprehend the quandary of this existence. In my thinking, this can't happen by chance.

And if you could know something "for sure" you would wax philosophic about how "this can't happen by chance". The bottom line is that you're in denial. My suggestion? Get over it.

 

[Radar]

Sounds like you should join the agnostics where it is ok to say I don't know and I think it is unknowable and be comfortable with that. Question everything. Here is a website and there are many more just do a search. http://www.apatheticagnostic.com/ If you like it cool if not, enjoy you search for the unknowable.

 

[michel]

I think you can read too much into things. Let's face it, if you go down that road, you can't even prove you exist; like Deut said, just stop going down that road, it only leads to more confusion.

 

[Whitsuntide]

I'm afraid everyone missed my point. I struck out big time on that one.

I'm a theist because the perfect conundrum we're in points to an intelligent design.

Guess it didn't strike a chord.

 

[michel]

I'm afraid everyone missed my point. I struck out big time on that one.

I'm a theist because the perfect conundrum we're in points to an intelligent design.

Guess it didn't strike a chord.

I 'm sorry about that; but don't give up! Try again - reword what you are trying to say.

 

[Whitsuntide]

Michel,
I have no doubt you and I exist. What's confusing to me why people spend so much time trying to debate or explain things when they are intelligently designed so as not to have an answer.

This has huge ramifications but perhaps it is over the top metaphysical.

Nevermind.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I'm a theist because the perfect conundrum we're in points to an intelligent design.

No more than your nipples ...

 

[Whitsuntide]

Michel, thanks for your last post, I'll give it one last shot...

The fact that things are intelligently designed so as not to have an answer means a lot, and can clarify a lot of things.

It is a good argument for a creator. Could it ever happen by chance that a creature could have evolved on this earth over millions of years, and understand nothing about it? We can quantify things but we don't know the most basic things about our environment. We don't know how light, gravity, or matter work or why. We don't know how we came into being.

For one, I don't think this situation could possible happen by chance.

Secondly, what is the point of creating a human being that is aware of its own mortality and has a natural yearning to understand its existence, yet this creature is set on a stage that is intelligently designed to frustrate every attempt at understanding. Look at our study of matter. We're led to believe there are tiny building blocks of matter, hence the atom. Then we're led to believe the atom is made of smaller parts, hence the electron, proton, neutron. Then we're led to believe there are smaller building blocks to these, hence quarks, gluons, muons, whatever, I understand there are hundreds of possible quarks identified. We still don't have a clue as to what causes motion in any building block of matter. There are now also 11 or so dimensions to our existence, necessary to explain quantum mechanics. Anyone see a trend here?

We're being frustrated.

So why does God choose to do this, and why make us painfully aware of it?

From an evolutionist perspective, what is the survival benefit of being conscious of your own mortality, which is an inexplicable conundrum? This was either an unfortunate mutation of the human brain, or we were given this ability by a creator. Purely by evolution, how would a human brain develop this capacity? Was it a side-effect of the logic and deduction? Once again - we'll never know for sure.

The only thing that could clear up the confusion is acceptance, not denial, of the situation we're in, and contemplating why God choosed to do this. That's clarity.

 

[Whitsuntide]

I meant chooses.

 

[Whitsuntide]

Deut that was really inappropriate.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Deut that was really inappropriate.

Don't be childish. In what way is a reference to male nipples inappropriate to a discussion of intelligent design? What is inappropriate, however, is claiming to find evidence of intelligent design in a "conundrum" of your own creation.

 

[michel]

Hi Whitsuntide,


I said I'd find your thread

Katz - your points about overpopulation are excellent. I agree that this is all a test. Everything in this world is set up so that we can never know if there is a God or not, never know for sure what is right or wrong, never know for sure what to believe, etc. etc. By doing this, God has made the perfect test. That's my theory, for another thread, which I already tried (which sort of flopped, by the way).

I am sorry, obviously I misread your OP; I agree with you and Kathryn about this world being a 'test' - especialy in that we are to accept everything 'in Faith'. I think that is the main deal, the other test, which both you and Kathryn have highlighted is the one of being free to choose between good and bad. Apart from man's laws, there is little evidence of any harm in doing 'bad' things; I guess that is just how God wanted it to be - his own 'personality' and purpose totally hidden from us, to make the test as 'good' as it can be.

As far as overpopulation, where does the food come from ? and all questions such as these, the Christian answer would be 'God will provide'; that is enough for me, I don't need to know where he keeps his larder and what is stocked in it.............:biglaugh:

I think the main point is this; as a theist, are you prepared to accept a whole 'package' from God, without seeing the details,or do you need the details...........I guess if you do, then maybe God isn't an option for you......

 

[Whitsuntide]

Deut.
Sorry, I assumed the worst. I thought you were being childish. My apologies.
I have not been able to formulate my argument well, and I think we're on different sheets of music. My thread is referring to the metaphysical question of why God has placed us here on earth in this perfect conundrum. This is an old testament bible-based question that arose from me studying the book of Ecclesiastes, "As for men, God tests them so that they may see that they are like the animals. Man's fate is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other...Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?" "No one can comprehend what goes on under the sun. Despite all his efforts to search it out, man cannot discover its meaning. Even if a wise man claims he knows, he cannot really comprehend it."
There are bibilcal examples of God frustrating man's attempts at understanding.
My whole premise is, why would God do this?
My thought is that God has placed us in the perfect test. It is all set up so that we can know nothing for sure. We'll never know if there is a God, if Jesus or Muhammed were true sons of God or prophets, or whether we are reincarnated as cows. It is set up so that we'll never know for sure if the earth is old or young, or created with the appearance of age. I'm not saying its not fun and interesting to keep trying to understand, just that the way its set up, we'll never know for sure.

I challenge you to name me one thing you know for sure.

 

[Whitsuntide]

Michel,
Thanks for replying. By the way I think it is fascinating the way you keep up with this entire forum.
I'm pounding away at this one a bit, but I'm trying to make the point that if we view life as a "perfect test" and realize we will be frustrated in every attempt at understanding, I, for one, am rendered completely humble and forced to take a step back and reevaluate.

In the start of this thread I was trying to make the point that this "perfect test" could not happen by chance. In my opinion... opinion only with no scientific basis...wouldn't we understand a whole lot more about our world if we had evolved in it over billions of years? Yet we understand nothing, not even how we are held on to our planet. How long ago was the earth flat and the stars and moon part of "heaven". Remember Galileo was imprisoned for pointing out that the moon had defects and was possibly just a rock rotating around the earth, hence it was not one of God's heavenly decorations.

To me, the intent that is evident in the absolute perfection of the test, is clear evidence of a creator and the creator's purpose.

 

[michel]

Michel,
Thanks for replying. By the way I think it is fascinating the way you keep up with this entire forum.
I'm pounding away at this one a bit, but I'm trying to make the point that if we view life as a "perfect test" and realize we will be frustrated in every attempt at understanding, I, for one, am rendered completely humble and forced to take a step back and reevaluate.

In the start of this thread I was trying to make the point that this "perfect test" could not happen by chance. In my opinion... opinion only with no scientific basis...wouldn't we understand a whole lot more about our world if we had evolved in it over billions of years? Yet we understand nothing, not even how we are held on to our planet. How long ago was the earth flat and the stars and moon part of "heaven". Remember Galileo was imprisoned for pointing out that the moon had defects and was possibly just a rock rotating around the earth, hence it was not one of God's heavenly decorations.

To me, the intent that is evident in the absolute perfection of the test, is clear evidence of a creator and the creator's purpose.

I agree with you; but atheists would'nt. The thing to understand is that Science and religion just won't mix; in fact, I have a personal feeling that that is in itself a red herring in the test.

As far as the evolution over billions of years is concerned, don't forget that mankind hasn't been around all that time - there have been ice ages, floods - whatever, that have literally wiped out the bulk of life at various times. As I said, it is better to leave science out of the topic, otherwise Religion begins to make no sense.

 

[Merlin]

I think you can read too much into things. Let's face it, if you go down that road, you can't even prove you exist; like Deut said, just stop going down that road, it only leads to more confusion.

Cogitas ergo sum

 

[Merlin]

No more than your nipples ...

Have you got a nipple fetish

 

[Merlin]

So why does God choose to do this, and why make us painfully aware of it?

What if God doesn't choose? What if he has no option? What if the world was created with the capability for intelligent life to evolve, and then God had to leave it to its own devices?

What if God needs us to fulfil some purpose that he cannot fulfil on his own?

That would be an awesome responsibility, would it not.

 

[Valjean]

Perhaps God set up an epistemologically ambiguous world not to test our faith, but to test our reason. Maybe He's trying to weed out the intellectually lazy who accept whatever ready-made religion society presents them with: those that attribute everything to a magical Creator and then censure those that seek to test or figure out the mechanism behind the magic; those that make a virtue of not questioning and call it "faith."