Yes you do!!! As long people still have freedom of religion. Trust me when I say that the day we don't have freedom of religion, they will come after your freedom of thought.
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The Perpetrated Lie of Today's Separation of Church and State
- Thread starter Kenny
- Start date
They're the same thing. You can't have freedom of religion when someone else's religion is being imposed on you.
Hence the importance of the most important protection of freedom of religion: separation of church and state.
For someone who praises freedom of religion so much, it's strange how deadset you seem to be on undermining it.
What I had just read was what I quoted you as saying in that response. Which was, "I believe that freedom of religion is embedded in the !st Amendment... and not freedom FROM religion."
What that reads as is you saying that "freedom of religion is fine, but not freedom FROM religion", as you emphasised in all-caps. That reads as you saying that freedom from religion, is not a protected right. Atheism is not protected. And Secularism is also not protected, according to what you just said. Religions get to go into public schools and promote faith, and not allow non-believers the freedom to be free from that.
Is this what you believe? If not, do you want to revise the wording of your statement then?
(In all honesty, I am of the view that atheism is also a non-theistic form of religious faith, as it deals with the question of the nature of Absolute Reality, which is a religious question. And therefore it is equally protected by the 1st Amendment. They have a right to not have other specific theistic religions imposed upon them by the government).
That's the opposite of what the way you worded this, "I believe that freedom of religion is embedded in the !st Amendment... and not freedom FROM religion."
I am pro-freedom. Freedom of religion, and freedom from religion, as both are equally protected by law. Christians don't get to use public schools to indoctrinate children with religion. They have churches for that.
Parent's get to choose what religious exposures they want to expose their children to. You don't get to choose that for them. That is not a Constitutional right. Nor is it moral, from a Christian perspective, IMHO. It does not reflect Love.
I am pro-fairness. Fairness for religion. Fairness for secularism. Fairness for everyone. And the best way to ensure that in a government funded public setting, is neutrality.
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OK - obviously you can't read everything that I have written. I can understand that you may have understood that, but my point is that currently it is more like "don't exercise faith and/or religion" vs freedom OF religion and that is why I said, "It is isn't FREEDOM FROM RELIGION" where people are not allowed to practice their faith.
Feel free to be secular if you so desire.
Look above
Hopefully we are in agreement now.
In what way do you think you're not allowed to practice your faith?OK - obviously you can't read everything that I have written. I can understand that you may have understood that, but my point is that currently it is more like "don't exercise faith and/or religion" vs freedom OF religion and that is why I said, "It is isn't FREEDOM FROM RELIGION" where people are not allowed to practice their faith.
Feel free to be secular if you so desire.
Look above
Hopefully we are in agreement now.
I can't use my school tax dollars to send my grandchild to a Christian school to "practice my faith" -- it just goes to a school that my grandchild isn't attending. (as one of many examples)
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Yes, that's how public school funding works: everyone pays for it, even if you send your kids (or grandkids) to a private school. How does this prevent you from practicing your faith?
BTW: why would you want public funds going to a Christian school? Public funding comes as a package deal with government oversight; why would you want to give the government a say in the affairs of your religion?
That is the way it is working today but it isn't the way it is SUPPOSE to work. It is suppose to follow the student (as it does in public schools) and it doesn't let us practice our right to "train up the child in the way he should go" in the area of education.
It isn't "government oversight" it is parental oversight of what the government is doing. As we can see nationwide.
Incidentally, you might want to check up on your position.
Sgt. Pepper
All you need is love.
My tax dollars help fund the local public school, despite the fact that I've been homeschooling my children for 16 years. My three oldest haven't stepped foot in a public school in 16 years and my four youngest children have never attended one. I was a Christian for 14 1/2 years of those 16 years, and I never once thought of fussing about my tax dollars being used to fund the public school.
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So... it's not enough for you to be free to send your grandchild to a private Christian school; you think your personal practice of religion is being inhibited unless your grandchild's private school tuition is paid for out of taxpayer funds with no government oversight over how those taxpayer funds are spent?That is the way it is working today but it isn't the way it is SUPPOSE to work. It is suppose to follow the student (as it does in public schools) and it doesn't let us practice our right to "train up the child in the way he should go" in the area of education.
It isn't "government oversight" it is parental oversight of what the government is doing. As we can see nationwide.
Incidentally, you might want to check up on your position.
Thanks for clarifying. But why do you assume I am secular? Because I defend the rights of atheists?
I'm not an atheist. I very much believe in God, and if any religion I would identify with it would be Christian, but an inclusive view of that, rather than an exclusive view. My views of God embrace all peoples whose hearts embrace love of others, regardless of their religious, or lack of religious affiliations. I very much see that reflected in Jesus' teachings.
I am in disagreement with you however that the desire to keep public schools inclusive, is 'anti-Christian' however. I just don't see that, or believe that. I'll respond to your other post later and go more into an explanation of that later.
Yes... people are silent when they are quiet. I am so happy that you could afford it but not everyone is as rich as you to make that happen.
But I am happy to be the voice of those who had no voice.
Sgt. Pepper
All you need is love.
Rich as me? That's rather presumptuous of you since you don't know my annual income. You don't know if I'm rich or not.
It isn't what I see, it is what I know. Education is education... just isn't YOUR education.
Ok... I'm fine with your viewpoint. May not totally agree.. but quite fine.
Oh... not presumptuous at all. You are richer than 80% of the world AND could stay home to teach your children... that moves you up to 90% of the populace of the world. Especially if you eat three meals a day, have air conditioner, have a car, own a computer et al.
So... 90% of the world can say "you are rich".
Are you even trying to express a coherent thought?It isn't what I see, it is what I know. Education is education... just isn't YOUR education.
My tax dollars do fund religious schools. Ontario has a Catholic school system that runs in parallel to the public system.
The arrangement has led to some wacky outcomes. Because it's publicly funded, it has to abide by all the normal rules for government except where it has a specific exemption for matters of the Catholic faith.
Because of this, secular courts have had to rule on exactly what the Catholic faith says about various issues. For instance, there was a famous case where a secular judge got to decide that a gay student taking his same-sex date to the prom at a Catholic school doesn't violate Catholic teaching:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/gay-teen-wins-fight-over-catholic-prom-1.348831
That's the sort of thing you're asking for when you ask for public money. Taxpayer funds always come with rules attached. Once your denomination starts suckling at the public teat (more than it is already, I mean), it may find it difficult to quit cold turkey. Are you sure that you'd be ready to abide by every rule that a secular government decides to impose on the funds you get?
Father Heathen
Veteran Member
That isn't what "freedom from religion" means unless you're somehow incapable of practicing your faith without imposing it upon others.