The Persistent Problem Of Cops Who Persecute For Mere Speech

[Revoltingest]

In the news......
ACLU lawsuit: ISP ticket for rude gesture violates rights

A Terre Haute man ticketed after making a rude gesture at an Indiana State Police trooper has filed a federal lawsuit claiming his constitutionally protected rights to free speech and freedom from unreasonable search and seizure were violated.
Mark May is seeking unspecified damages against Indiana State Police Master Trooper Matt Ames, according to the complaint filed Thursday in the Southern District of Indiana by the American Civil Liberties Union of Indiana.
In the lawsuit, May admits to the incident on Aug. 21, 2017 when he made a gesture commonly known as “giving the finger” to Ames as May drove past Ames, who had stopped another motorist along U.S. 41.

May claims just prior to that incident, he was cut off in traffic by Ames, who was pursuing another motorist.

After Ames saw May make the gesture, the lawsuit claims, Ames pursued May, pulled him over and ticketed him for “provocation.”

There are other examples where insulting a cop or politician results
in ticketing & even arrest for "disturbing the peace" or "making a threat".
I hope this guy wins oodles of money.
It's the only way police departments can be policed, since government
officials ignore the problem. I suppose that politicians don't dare because
cops proclaim that they're "heroes" selflessly serving the public....& their
union might campaign against any who don't toe the line.

Fellow posters, what say you?

 

[Brickjectivity]

Its complicated by the fact that giving regular citizens 'The finger' is considered offensive and provocative. For example if you go to court against someone who punched you in the face after you gave them the finger then they can say they were provoked, so the charge against them is different. They got angry and punched you. Its not like they just felt like punching you for fun.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I wonder if @Nous has seen your thread yet? No doubt there is some avalanche of case-law that comments upon this.

 

[Revoltingest]

I wonder if @Nous has seen your thread yet? No doubt there is some avalanche of case-law that comments upon this.

Shhhh!
I'd rather have personal commentary than walls of text.

 

[Revoltingest]

Its complicated by the fact that giving regular citizens 'The finger' is considered offensive and provocative. For example if you go to court against someone who punched you in the face after you gave them the finger then they can say they were provoked, so the charge against them is different. They got angry and punched you. Its not like they just felt like punching you for fun.

A problem here is that giving a cop the finger while driving by can
only be considered to possibly provoke violence if we presume
that cops are prone to committing unjustifiable violence. This
would be to recognize that cops are inherently dangerous to us.
While likely true, it would be an awkward argument for a prosecutor
to make in court.

 

[BSM1]

This is very disturbing. I'm not sure my wife can drive without using that gesture at any provocation.

 

[Enoch07]

This
would be to recognize that cops are inherently dangerous to us.

That case could be made.

My thoughts on it are. If a citizen flips off a cop, then the cop should simply return the favor. But then the "sensitive" population would moan about how cops are cruel and flipping people off. So it's a damned if you do damned if you don't situation.

 

[Quetzal]

In the news......
ACLU lawsuit: ISP ticket for rude gesture violates rights

There are other examples where insulting a cop or politician results
in ticketing & even arrest for "disturbing the peace" or "making a threat".
I hope this guy wins oodles of money.
It's the only way police departments can be policed, since government
officials ignore the problem. I suppose that politicians don't dare because
cops proclaim that they're "heroes" selflessly serving the public....& their
union might campaign against any who don't toe the line.

Fellow posters, what say you?

Sheesh, anything could qualify for provocation then. Wiggle an eye brow in the wrong direction and you could be going to the slammer!

 

[Falvlun]

Sheesh, anything could qualify for provocation then. Wiggle an eye brow in the wrong direction and you could be going to the slammer!

I don’t think that’s far from the truth in certain circumstances.

 

[YmirGF]

That case could be made.

My thoughts on it are. If a citizen flips off a cop, then the cop should simply return the favor. But then the "sensitive" population would moan about how cops are cruel and flipping people off. So it's a damned if you do damned if you don't situation.

That reminds me of a story from my mom when she was working in the Jewelry Dept at a Department store when I was young. She had been dealing with a drunk who was trying to buy a nice watch and got a bit testy with him, at least in composure, if not directly. After the fellow bought the watch he turned and said, "**** You! Have a nice day!" Mom didn't skip a beat and pleasantly said, "Same to you, sir. Have a nice day!" She turned to move on to another customer and spied the President of the company standing a few feet away and had observed the exchange. Her heart skipped a beat until he broke out in a big smile and walked away towards the elevators.

In regards to the OP, pulling someone over for giving the finger is a bit rich, a superior court should rule in that way, but award the absolute minimum for wasting the court's time on such a frivolous matter.

 

[Subduction Zone]

In the news......
ACLU lawsuit: ISP ticket for rude gesture violates rights

There are other examples where insulting a cop or politician results
in ticketing & even arrest for "disturbing the peace" or "making a threat".
I hope this guy wins oodles of money.
It's the only way police departments can be policed, since government
officials ignore the problem. I suppose that politicians don't dare because
cops proclaim that they're "heroes" selflessly serving the public....& their
union might campaign against any who don't toe the line.

Fellow posters, what say you?

Cops with thin skins need to be fired. Policemen will always be insulted. It is never a valid excuse to arrest someone.

 

[Nous]

I wonder if @Nous has seen your thread yet? No doubt there is some avalanche of case-law that comments upon this.

Thank you for thinking of me.

The case law certainly seems to be on the side of petitioner here. Federal courts have held that the ancient middle-finger gesture (Aristophanes mentions Strepsiades flipping off Aristotle in The Clouds) does not constitute disorderly conduct and that for an officer to initiate a traffic stop on such grounds is a violation of the Fourth Amendment (Sandul v. Larion (6th Cir., 1997); Cook v. Board of County Commissioners (D. Kan., 1997); Swartz v. Insogna (2nd Cir., 2012)). Given that May and the officer were in different cars in the instant case, the gesture cannot possibly be considered an expression of “fighting words,” which are “inherently likely to provoke a violent reaction,” according to the Supreme Court (Cohen v. California, 1971). And the Indiana Supreme Court has held that even when an arrestee loudly shouts at the arresting officer the words that the middle-finger is intended to express, it does not amount to nuisance (Price v. State, 1993).

 

[Nous]

Shhhh!
I'd rather have personal commentary than walls of text.

Hopefully that was brief enough for your attention span.

 

[Grandliseur]

Fellow posters, what say you?

I think saying too much about this is a recipe for trouble. I believe in violence against those who use it against me.

So, for me silence is golden.

 

[Valjean]

Cops are insecure. A lack of deference irritates them.

 

[Kuzcotopia]

Cops are insecure. A lack of deference irritates them.

A lot of teachers I know have the same problem! My AP rolls her eyes over the few teachers who have to involve the adminstration over every offense, writing kids up for "insubordination" over whatever power struggle they've just invented out of thin air to "control" the students.

 

[Revoltingest]

That case could be made.

My thoughts on it are. If a citizen flips off a cop, then the cop should simply return the favor. But then the "sensitive" population would moan about how cops are cruel and flipping people off. So it's a damned if you do damned if you don't situation.

The obvious & most practical solution is for cops to learn to endure free speech.
The rest of us are supposed to, & most of us do. If they can't handle rudeness
without becoming violent or abusing their authority, they're in the wrong field.

 

[Revoltingest]

Sheesh, anything could qualify for provocation then. Wiggle an eye brow in the wrong direction and you could be going to the slammer!

Aye, there's no telling what can p*** off one of the many cops
we run into...like making a video of them beating someone.
Certainly, they should mature enuf to endure the bird.

 

[Revoltingest]

Hopefully that was brief enough for your attention span.

You know my post was out of affection......& only a little fear!

 

[Enoch07]

The obvious & most practical solution is for cops to learn to endure free speech.
The rest of us are supposed to, & most of us do. If they can't handle rudeness
without becoming violent or abusing their authority, they're in the wrong field.

True, but they have the right to excercise their own free speech as well, and should be able to return the favor with a flip of the finger of their own.