The place of name and form of the divine in spritual practice?

[Onkara]

I would like to offer a topic for your consideration and feeback.

Can name and form (nāma – rūpa) of deities be separated for the purpose of Sādhanā (spritiual practice), or should we consider both name and form to be insperable and approach both as divine through our Sādhanā?

 

[Ekanta]

Hi, a small contribution and we see where it ends...
Of what I learned, name and form go together... but the name is more important since it will automatically bring the form to ones mind. If the form is visualized it might not always give the name (and it will not be as sweet).

Another interesting thing is that if I gently touch a photo of someone I dont think they will be as affected as if I tell them sweet words. Sound is deeper and sound carry the meaning as I understand it. Or something like that...
I had some good quotes on this but cant find them at the moment.

 

[Onkara]

Thank you Ekanta
I hadn't considered it like that, but I feel you are right. There is something much more resonant and important about words. Form seems to settle our inner eye, but name expresses our feelings, perhaps.

 

[Ekanta]

Here's an example I found quite interesting... at the source is a wider explanation of the akasa's, i.e.
ghaṭa-ākāśa (pot-space), jala-ākāśa (water-space), dahara-ākāśa (small-space), cit-ākāśa (awareness-space), mahat-ākāśa (great-space).

[water apparently is our thoughts and the tub our mind-complex and the reflection becomes our ego etc]

'Dahara-akasa' [small-space] is the state when one looks at Sankalpas and Vikalpas but one is aware that he is looking at them. Let us take an example. We pour water into a tub and we look at it. We see our own face reflected in it and we say that it is a reflection. Even though that image reflected in the water is beaten, not even a single stroke is felt by the object, namely, the body. If the object and the image were one, any injury done to the image must be felt by the object also. Though your face is reflected in water, the goodness or badness of the image does not affect you, the object. You may then ask, 'Is it not my reflection?' Yes, it is yours. When the image is hurt and that injury is not registered by you, it is 'not you'. But when you are abused, you and the image become one. When the image is hurt physically by anybody, that injury is not felt by the object, but when the image is insulted and abused by anybody, then the object, whose reflection is found in the water, also feels the insult. You feel angry because you are there in the image also. In Sabda or sound, there is unity, but in action or Kriya there is no unity. And the nature of Sabda-Brahma-tattva is hidden here. In Jala-akasa [water-space], we also find the nature of Dahara-akasa.

Source: Sathya Sai Baba summer showers 1972-18 (more at ss1973-28)

 

[Onkara]

Thanks Ekanta
The analogy of water and ego makes sense. I am not clear on the final lines, for example, why is there no unity in kriya or action and what has that got to do with the image? Unless it means that an insult is sound, where as abuse is action?

"In Sabda or sound, there is unity, but in action or Kriya there is no unity. And the nature of Sabda-Brahma-tattva is hidden here. In Jala-akasa [water-space], we also find the nature of Dahara-akasa."

 

[Ekanta]

Hi Onkara. You asked about name & form and I tried to give a hint as to what is deepest within the manifested.

Well (as I understand it) śabda-brahma (brahman as sound) can indicate ākāśa (space) and the quality of space is sound. So space/sound is the first of the 5 elements that make up this manifestation and the other 4 manifested from it. So the deepest connection within this objective word of identification [unity] can be said to be through sound/name. Thus even if we are not identified [no unity ] with the form (for example body or a mental image) we might still be identified/affected by sound/name [unity]... Now I dont wont to make it too complicated...

Originally I investigated into this to get a grip of Buddhism and "emptiness". I might as well post a more complete picture from those discources mentioned (a bit edited by me to get an overview). Its a nice reading me thinks.

• Ghaṭa-ākāśa (Pot-Space) Each one of you has got a name. The name refers to the body but not the ātman or the soul in you. Ghaṭa-ākāśa is that state which says, “This is I.” Man uses the word “I”, referring to the body, though there is deeply lodged within him the higher principle of ātman. (ss1972-18) Here the self remains chained to the gross body. (ss1973-28)
• Jala-ākāśa (Water-Space) is the state that is full of saṃkalpa or intention and may be described as the sky reflected in water. If in a little pond of water the blue sky is reflected and the sky may also have the shining moon, we have the illusion that the sky and the moon reflected in the water seem to be mobile or moving. The sky and the moon do not move, but only the water moves when the breeze blows over it. The saṃkalpa and the vikalpa in us are the water [moving mind]. (ss1972-18) In Jala-ākāśa the self remains chained to the subtle body. (ss1973-28)
• Dahara-ākāśa (Small-Space) When you reach the state of dahara-ākāśa, you start enquiring about the nature and origin of “I”, distinguishing it from the body and ultimately apprehending that this “I” arises from your innermost being. (ss1973-28) Dahara-ākāśa is the sky that is reflected in the heart, the state when one looks at saṃkalpas and vikalpas but one is aware that he is looking at them. Let us take an example. We pour water into a tub and we look at it. We see our own face reflected in it, and we say that it is a reflection.
  • When the image is injured physically by anybody, that injury is not felt by the object. In kriyā (action) there is no unity.
  • When the image is insulted by anybody, then the object, also feels the insult. In śabda (sound) there is unity. The nature of śabda-brahma-tattva is hidden here. (ss1972-18)
• Cit-ākāśa (Awareness-Space) Whatever may happen to the body - it may be insulted or injured - the person is not affected by them; he is always engrossed in the higher consciousness and that is the state of cit-ākāśa. (ss1972-18) Cit-ākāśa corresponds to subtle experiences, wherein the Self remains the witnessing consciousness. In that state, you are above and apart from your body and your life. It can be compared to a dream state. (ss1973-28)
• Mahat-ākāśa (Great-Space) Though this is reflected in our body, mind and senses, this tattva is something that transcends all of them. It is possible for us to realize the nature of the mahat-akasa, or the great sky, in the state known as nirvikalpa. Nirvikalpa means arresting the activity of all the senses and assuming supreme control over them. The sky is known by several names such as ākāśa, gagana, śūnya, or nothingness, and so on. There is nothing there in the sky. When we sometimes refer to our heart and say, this is hṛdaya-akasa, it is because there is no shape for the hṛdaya or heart in a spiritual sense. The ākāśa has to be cleared of all baser intentions and instincts, all saṃkalpas, and vikalpas. (ss1972-18) Mahat-ākāśa signifies ones ability for equal-mindedness. In this mental state, you develop the sameness of attitude towards heat and cold, light and darkness, sorrow and pleasure. This state is not above the mind, as in deep meditation the mind itself ebbs away, whereas mahat-ākāśa is a state wherein you achieve mental equilibrium. (ss1973-28)

 

[zenzero]

Friend Onkara,
If you read the post just posted on the topic *choosing a god* you will understand the symbolism part of deities.

Rgds nama-roopa they are together as the symbolism creator would have already considered both together.
Rgds discussing about which is important? personal understanding is that both are involving the mind ie. seeing or saying and so both are creating vibrations and stilling all vibrations is the goal and in that stillness alone one is in oneness with the VOID.
Yes normally one takes a single vibration to go along and finally when the void is reached the vibration drops.
Personal approach is to understand the process itself to enable stillness to generate by itself for VOID to emerge and one is in oneness with both the vibration and the void which is what TRUTH IS!
Love & rgds