The problem is evil solved?

[GoodAttention]

Really?

The better description is God gave man free will.

This god didn't already have free will thanks to whatever laws made it and its will possible?

Yes.

 

[YellowFeather]

God can stop all evil, rape and pain. When man created sin, that created evil, hate and pain. God gave man a mind to chose what direction he wants to go. Man has chosen to follow sin. If you do not want rape, evil, sin, then do not follow through with it. God wants man to use the mind he created that has the ability to stop all these wars, hate and violence. Those who chose to stop following in to wars, hating and hurting others and follow God will live happier lives. When judgement day comes God will stop all evil. Only those who chose to follow God now will be saved.

 

[Trailblazer]

This will stop people from raping children? Ok.

No, it will not stop them. Only one thing will stop them, following the Laws of God, which incidentally are the same as the secular laws.

“God hath in that Book, and by His behest, decreed as lawful whatsoever He hath pleased to decree, and hath, through the power of His sovereign might, forbidden whatsoever He elected to forbid. To this testifieth the text of that Book. Will ye not bear witness? Men, however, have wittingly broken His law. Is such a behavior to be attributed to God, or to their proper selves? Be fair in your judgment. Every good thing is of God, and every evil thing is from yourselves. Will ye not comprehend? This same truth hath been revealed in all the Scriptures, if ye be of them that understand.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 149-150

 

[Trailblazer]

God can stop all evil, rape and pain.

Maybe, but not without overriding man's free will to choose.

When man created sin, that created evil, hate and pain. God gave man a mind to chose what direction he wants to go. Man has chosen to follow sin. If you do not want rape, evil, sin, then do not follow through with it. God wants man to use the mind he created that has the ability to stop all these wars, hate and violence. Those who chose to stop following in to wars, hating and hurting others and follow God will live happier lives.

I agree with all of the above.

When judgement day comes God will stop all evil. Only those who chose to follow God now will be saved.

I disagree that God will be the one to stop all evil because my beliefs about judgement day are different from yours.

“Christ spoke much in parables about a great Day of Judgment when “the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father … and … shall reward every man according to his works” (Matt. xvi, 27). He compares this Day to the time of harvest, when the tares are burned and the wheat gathered into barns:—

… so shall it be in the end of this world [consummation of the age]. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.—Matt. xiii, 40–43.

The phrase “end of the world” used in the Authorized Version of the Bible in this and similar passages has led many to suppose that when the Day of Judgment comes, the earth will suddenly be destroyed, but this is evidently a mistake. The true translation of the phrase appears to be “the consummation or end of the age.” Christ teaches that the Kingdom of the Father is to be established on earth, as well as in heaven. He teaches us to pray: “Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.” In the parable of the Vineyard, when the Father, the Lord of the Vineyard, comes to destroy the wicked husbandmen, He does not destroy the vineyard (the world) also, but lets it out to other husbandmen, who will render Him the fruits in their season. The earth is not to be destroyed, but to be renewed and regenerated. Christ speaks of that day on another occasion as “the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory.” St. Peter speaks of it as “the times of refreshing,” “the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.” The Day of Judgment of which Christ speaks is evidently identical with the coming of the Lord of Hosts, the Father, which was prophesied by Isaiah and the other Old Testament prophets; a time of terrible punishment for the wicked, but a time in which justice shall be established and righteousness rule, on earth as in heaven.

In the Bahá’í interpretation, the coming of each Manifestation of God is a Day of Judgment, but the coming of the supreme Manifestation of Bahá’u’lláh is the great Day of Judgment for the world cycle in which we are living. The trumpet blast of which Christ and Muhammad and many other prophets speak is the call of the Manifestation, which is sounded for all who are in heaven and on earth—the embodied and the disembodied. The meeting with God, through His Manifestation, is, for those who desire to meet Him, the gateway to the Paradise of knowing and loving Him, and living in love with all His creatures. Those, on the other hand, who prefer their own way to God’s way, as revealed by the Manifestation, thereby consign themselves to the hell of selfishness, error and enmity.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, Pages 219-220

 

[Trailblazer]

That is not what I said. Why change what I said? Why is it humane for humans to stop child rape and starvation but not for god to stop it?

That is not what I said. I never said is it humane for humans to stop child rape and starvation but not humane for God to stop it.
I only ever said that God does not stop child rape and starvation and I have stated the reasons God does not do that more than once.

Please note that the fact that God does not stop child rape and starvation does not mean God is not humane.
It means God knows better than you what is the proper course of action since God is All-knowing and All-wise.
Last I checked no human being is either All-knowing or All-wise. That means no human can know as much as God or be as wise as God.

Sure, but humans cannot stop it, god could. This is the point you keep avoiding.

Humans sure as hell can stop child rape and starvation in the world because humans have free will to choose to do so.
But if people keep sitting around expecting God to do it nothing will ever get done.

Yes. Live 1000 years maybe you get bored. Did you watch "The Good Place"?

No, I never saw the movie. Certainly, if we had to spend eternity on earth we would get bored, so it is a good thing we are destined to spend eternity in the spiritual worlds, where we will never get bored.

I would rather not die but I have accepted the fact that I will.

Some days I would rather die, but there are reasons for me to stick around here, and I don't believe in suicide, so I am still here.

Losing loved ones is hard, I agree.

I cannot say there is anything worse. I have lost all of my family except one older brother, who is not long for this world. The toughest loss was the latest one that occurred two years ago, the loss of my husband of 37 years.

 

[Trailblazer]

The description of gods can be judged according to one's own moral values. Furthermore, you've just argued that your god doesn't know right from wrong.

You can judge any god(s) that you want to because you are a free agent.

That's not what he said. He wrote, "I cannot stop child rape and starvation. God can and chooses not to."

Perhaps you can address why this deity sits by and watches such things.

God does not SIT BY and watch because God is not a human being.

So what's your answer to why this deity allows children to be raped?

So what's your answer to why this deity should 'step in' and stop children from being raped, even if He could?

Why should God take over human responsibilities?
Please don't say "because God is omnipotent" because that is completely irrelevant since omnipotence does not imply responsibility.

It doesn't seem so according to my humanist ethics. As Tracie noted above, she (and most decent people) would protect a vulnerable child in need. I understand why you want this deity exempted from such value judgments, but perhaps you can understand why the humanist won't grant that request.

When you say "she (and most decent people) would protect a vulnerable child in need" and expect God to do likewise, you are doing what many atheists do, equating God with a human being. That is a logical fallacy, the fallacy of false equivalence

False equivalence is a logical fallacy in which an equivalence is drawn between two subjects based on flawed or false reasoning. This fallacy is categorized as a fallacy of inconsistency.[1] A colloquial expression of false equivalency is "comparing apples and oranges".

This fallacy is committed when one shared trait between two subjects is assumed to show equivalence, especially in order of magnitude, when equivalence is not necessarily the logical result.[2] False equivalence is a common result when an anecdotal similarity is pointed out as equal, but the claim of equivalence doesn't bear scrutiny because the similarity is based on oversimplification or ignorance of additional factors.

False equivalence - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Meaning of Comparing Apples to Oranges When you're comparing apples to oranges, you're comparing two things that are fundamentally different and, therefore, shouldn't be compared.

We can judge that as well, and not favorably. The child can't protect itself, nor can any adult unaware of the child needing protection at that moment. Does the Golden Rule not apply to this deity with you? It does with me, and since it doesn't respect it, why should anyone respect such a god? Because it can harm them?

No, The Golden Rule does not apply to God. That is a rule that God revealed for humans to follow.

It is beyond comical when atheists expect God to act like a human and follow rules that were revealed for humans and it is also completely illogical.

I understand that you're a believer and excuse this gods behavior whatever it allegedly does, but perhaps you can understand why the unbeliever doesn't. Why would he without your belief?

God does not have behavior so there is nothing to excuse. Only humans and animals have behavior.

The day you realize what God is and how God operates is the day we can actually have a fruitful discussion.
That God is not a human so cannot be expected to act like a human would be the starting point.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

God does not do what WE want because God only does what God wants to do. That comes with being omnipotent.

Omnipotence implies ability but it also implies that God only uses that ability as He chooses to, not as you want Him to.
Here is what omnipotence means, in a nutshell:

“Say: He ordaineth as He pleaseth, by virtue of His sovereignty, and doeth whatsoever He willeth at His own behest. He shall not be asked of the things it pleaseth Him to ordain. He, in truth, is the Unrestrained, the All-Powerful, the All-Wise.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 279-285

“Say: O people! Let not this life and its deceits deceive you, for the world and all that is therein is held firmly in the grasp of His Will. He bestoweth His favor on whom He willeth, and from whom He willeth He taketh it away. He doth whatsoever He chooseth.” (Gleanings, p. 209)

“God witnesseth that there is no God but Him, the Gracious, the Best-Beloved. All grace and bounty are His. To whomsoever He will He giveth whatsoever is His wish. He, verily, is the All-Powerful, the Almighty, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting.” (Gleanings, p. 73)

I agree a god can do what it wants. But I am just saying it should stop child rape and starvation in my opinion.

Because it is in the Writings of Baha'u'llah, as noted above.

ok

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

First you would have to explain what you mean by logical problems.

Has logical fallacies or defies the laws of logic.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

No, it will not stop them. Only one thing will stop them, following the Laws of God, which incidentally are the same as the secular laws.

“God hath in that Book, and by His behest, decreed as lawful whatsoever He hath pleased to decree, and hath, through the power of His sovereign might, forbidden whatsoever He elected to forbid. To this testifieth the text of that Book. Will ye not bear witness? Men, however, have wittingly broken His law. Is such a behavior to be attributed to God, or to their proper selves? Be fair in your judgment. Every good thing is of God, and every evil thing is from yourselves. Will ye not comprehend? This same truth hath been revealed in all the Scriptures, if ye be of them that understand.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 149-150

ok. Without gods help this will not be possible as has been shown over the course of history.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

That is not what I said. I never said is it humane for humans to stop child rape and starvation but not humane for God to stop it.
I only ever said that God does not stop child rape and starvation and I have stated the reasons God does not do that more than once.

Please note that the fact that God does not stop child rape and starvation does not mean God is not humane.
It means God knows better than you what is the proper course of action since God is All-knowing and All-wise.
Last I checked no human being is either All-knowing or All-wise. That means no human can know as much as God or be as wise as God.

Uh huh. Can god at least explain to us why he won't stop it?

Humans sure as hell can stop child rape and starvation in the world because humans have free will to choose to do so.
But if people keep sitting around expecting God to do it nothing will ever get done.

How?

I cannot say there is anything worse. I have lost all of my family except one older brother, who is not long for this world. The toughest loss was the latest one that occurred two years ago, the loss of my husband of 37 years.

I agree it is hard. Losing a spouse has to be a terrible loss.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

So what's your answer to why this deity should 'step in' and stop children from being raped, even if He could?

Really? You have to ask that? I guess you don't think any more of this god than I do.

Why should God take over human responsibilities?

Why should the deity intervene when it and the rapist alone know that the rape is occurring? That's the deity's responsibility. As Tracie Harris said, that the difference between her (and me) and this god that for some reason its worshippers call good.

Please don't say "because God is omnipotent" because that is completely irrelevant since omnipotence does not imply responsibility.

Combined with alleged omniscience and omnibenevolence, it does to me. But then what do I know about morality? I'm humanist that would help a child being raped, not the deity with the morals you describe and accept.

When you say "she (and most decent people) would protect a vulnerable child in need" and expect God to do likewise, you are doing what many atheists do, equating God with a human being. That is a logical fallacy, the fallacy of false equivalence

Disagree. You're the one making the fallacy: special pleading.

The Golden Rule does not apply to God.

More special pleading. You forgive so much from this god that others consider immoral and you give no justification for it other than it's a god.

God does not have behavior

So you think your deity does nothing? It never acts?

I wouldn't argue that there is no evidence that it does anything. There's no reason to believe something described as doing nothing including occupy space exists.

The day you realize what God is and how God operates is the day we can actually have a fruitful discussion.

I don't accept your idea of what is moral behavior for this deity. I don't give this deity the passes you do. You're unwilling to judge it; I'm not. You say that's off limits but give no justification for that apart from calling it a god. That's exactly what special pleading is: unjustified double standard. You have a separate standard for this god and you give no valid reason for doing that.

One thing I dislike about the Abrahamic religions is the way it deforms thought, both intellectual and moral. You know better than all of this or would if you hadn't been drawn to this faith. You are better than your god in your daily life. So am I. But because you have accepted it as real and have assimilated the doctrine taught, you defend what I'd call a monster willing to watch a child being raped if I thought it really existed. You wouldn't. I wouldn't. But the god you worship would, and you find that acceptable and are even an apologist for it.

I doubt that you'd spend even a moment with a person like the god you defend - one that would watch a child being raped and do nothing. But call it a god, and you suspend judgment. I don't.

 

[Trailblazer]

Has logical fallacies or defies the laws of logic.

That is too vague.

Do you think that God would be subject to the laws of 'human' logic?
I do not believe He is, since God is far above human logic.

Do you think that the evidence for God would be subject to the laws of 'human' logic?
Granted, I think it should make sense, but what makes sense to one person does not always make sense to another person.

 

[Trailblazer]

ok. Without gods help this will not be possible as has been shown over the course of history.

History does not always repeat itself.
This is a new age, the likes of which humanity has never seen before. With the Revelation from Baha'u'llah all things are possible.

Eventually humans will be a new race of men.

With the establishment of the Most Great Peace and the spiritualization of the peoples of the world, man will become a noble being adorned with divine virtues and perfections. This is one of the fruits of the Revelation of Bahá’u’lláh, promised by Him. The nobility of man and his spiritual development will lead him in the future to such a position that no individual could enjoy eating his food or resting at home while knowing that there was one person somewhere in the world without food or shelter. It is Bahá’u’lláh's mission to create such a new race of men.
Adib Taherzadeh, The Revelation of Bahá’u’lláh v 3, p. 126

New Race of Men | Bahá’í Quotes

bahaiquotes.com

 

[Trailblazer]

Uh huh. Can god at least explain to us why he won't stop it?

God has explained that in the Writings of Baha'u'llah, who spoke as God's Representative.
God won't stop it because God has entrusted humans with that task.

How?

Humans can stop child rape by choosing not to rape. It has to be their choice.

Humans can stop starvation by working to eliminate starvation in the world.
Baha'is have been struggling to end hunger for a long time. Note the date on the following article.

Struggle Against Hunger

The Baha'i International Community has a deep interest in and a commitment to the struggle against hunger and the provision of adequate food for every member of the human race. We have therefore increasingly participated in the sessions and follow with appreciation the efforts of the World Food...

www.bic.org

I agree it is hard. Losing a spouse has to be a terrible loss.

It's the worst loss I have ever experienced although losing a multitude of my beloved cats was no picnic.

 

[Trailblazer]

Really? You have to ask that? I guess you don't think any more of this god than I do.

Why should the deity intervene when it and the rapist alone know that the rape is occurring? That's the deity's responsibility. As Tracie Harris said, that the difference between her (and me) and this god that for some reason its worshippers call good.

No, it is not the deity's responsibility, it is a human responsibility.

You are ignoring what I said in my last post, as if I never even said it.
So here it is again:

Why should God take over human responsibilities?

When you say "she (and most decent people) would protect a vulnerable child in need" and expect God to do likewise, you are doing what many atheists do, equating God with a human being. That is a logical fallacy, the fallacy of false equivalence

No, The Golden Rule does not apply to God. That is a rule that God revealed for humans to follow.

It is beyond comical when atheists expect God to act like a human and follow rules that were revealed for humans and it is also completely illogical.

God does not have behavior so there is nothing to excuse. Only humans and animals have behavior.

The day you realize what God is and how God operates is the day we can actually have a fruitful discussion.
That God is not a human so cannot be expected to act like a human would be the starting point.

Combined with alleged omniscience and omnibenevolence, it does to me. But then what do I know about morality? I'm humanist that would help a child being raped, not the deity with the morals you describe and accept.

Omniscience and omnibenevolence do not imply responsibility, there is no logical connection between the two.
I explained that to @ratiocinator yesterday:

The problem is evil solved?

You didn't answer my question: Who describes evil as the state of being absent from God? Definitely not me, so you are not speaking for me. I did. Did you not read it? You should comment on things you havet read. Just a suggestion. Where did I say I was speaking for you? Please don't respond...

www.religiousforums.com

Disagree. You're the one making the fallacy: special pleading.

More special pleading. You forgive so much from this god that others consider immoral and you give no justification for it other than it's a god.

Others? Only some atheists consider God immoral, and that is because they illogically expect God to act like a human.
God is not subject to morality because God is not a human.

Morality is the belief that some behaviour is right and acceptable and that other behaviour is wrong. ... A morality is a system of principles and values concerning people's behaviour, which is generally accepted by a society or by a particular group of people.
(Morality definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary)

You are the one who is special pleading, not me.

special pleading
argument in which the speaker deliberately ignores aspects that are unfavorable to their point of view.

special pleading - Google Search

When you deliberately ignore the FACT that God is not a human being so God cannot act like a human being, because that is unfavorable to their point of view that is special pleading.

Special pleading is an informal fallacy wherein one cites something as an exception to a general or universal principle, without justifying the special exception.[1][2][3][4][5] It is the application of a double standard.[6][7]

Special pleading - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I am not special pleading because I have justified the special exception.
I justified it when I explained WHY God is an exception to a general or universal principle.

God is not a human being so God is a special exception.
If you do not like my explanation, which is logical, that is tough tiddlywinks.

So you think your deity does nothing? It never acts?

I wouldn't argue that there is no evidence that it does anything. There's no reason to believe something described as doing nothing including occupy space exists.

God has a will and God wills things into existence. God also ordains things to happen, but God does not DO things like a human does things.

I don't accept your idea of what is moral behavior for this deity. I don't give this deity the passes you do. You're unwilling to judge it; I'm not. You say that's off limits but give no justification for that apart from calling it a god. That's exactly what special pleading is: unjustified double standard. You have a separate standard for this god and you give no valid reason for doing that.

I have judged God plenty but I finally realized how illogical and inappropriate that was and I am much better off now than I was back then.

No it is not special pleading because the double standard is justified since God is God and man is man and God is not a man.
The fact that God is not a man is a valid reason for having a separate standard.

Can't you even see that God is not a man?

I doubt that you'd spend even a moment with a person like the god you defend - one that would watch a child being raped and do nothing. But call it a god, and you suspend judgment. I don't.

GOD IS NOT A PERSON.

Maybe you were taught that when you were a Christian, but it's high time you dumped those old beliefs.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

That is too vague.

Do you think that God would be subject to the laws of 'human' logic?
I do not believe He is, since God is far above human logic.

Do you think that the evidence for God would be subject to the laws of 'human' logic?
Granted, I think it should make sense, but what makes sense to one person does not always make sense to another person.

because something makes sense to someone is not how you should determine what is true. So god is illogical then?

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

History does not always repeat itself.
This is a new age, the likes of which humanity has never seen before. With the Revelation from Baha'u'llah all things are possible.

Eventually humans will be a new race of men.

With the establishment of the Most Great Peace and the spiritualization of the peoples of the world, man will become a noble being adorned with divine virtues and perfections. This is one of the fruits of the Revelation of Bahá’u’lláh, promised by Him. The nobility of man and his spiritual development will lead him in the future to such a position that no individual could enjoy eating his food or resting at home while knowing that there was one person somewhere in the world without food or shelter. It is Bahá’u’lláh's mission to create such a new race of men.
Adib Taherzadeh, The Revelation of Bahá’u’lláh v 3, p. 126

New Race of Men | Bahá’í Quotes

bahaiquotes.com

Uh huh.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

God has explained that in the Writings of Baha'u'llah, who spoke as God's Representative.
God won't stop it because God has entrusted humans with that task.

Humans can stop child rape by choosing not to rape. It has to be their choice.

Humans can stop starvation by working to eliminate starvation in the world.
Baha'is have been struggling to end hunger for a long time. Note the date on the following article.

Struggle Against Hunger

The Baha'i International Community has a deep interest in and a commitment to the struggle against hunger and the provision of adequate food for every member of the human race. We have therefore increasingly participated in the sessions and follow with appreciation the efforts of the World Food...

www.bic.org

And as we humans struggle to end child rape and starvation god watches children getting raped and people starving to death.

 

[Trailblazer]

because something makes sense to someone is not how you should determine what is true.

I agree, so just because the evidence for God makes no sense to atheists that does not mean that God does not exist.

So god is illogical then?

I did not say that.
I said:
Do you think that God would be subject to the laws of 'human' logic?
I do not believe He is, since God is far above human logic.

I think God has His own kind of logic that is far superior to our logic.
As such we should not subject God to our piddly human logic and expect that to yield any results.

 

[Trailblazer]

Uh huh.

Yep, although we won't see this all unfold within our lifetimes.