The problem of Creationism in Islam rejecting the science of evolution.

[shunyadragon]

I believe God is not subjective. Knowing God personally is subjective. I believe God speaks the truth about creation and science fantasizes about evolution.

You cannot provide any objective evidence for the existence of Gods, therefore the human view of God of the mind only is subjective and highly variable and conflicting.

False, your intentional ignorance of science is profound. First science does not prove anything. The sciences of evolution have been falsified as the only possible explanation available for the history of life.

Can you provide any objective evidence for a different explanation for the history of life?

 

[shunyadragon]

There is no need for proof. It either is by definition or it isn't: an arrangement of lines or shapes created to form a pattern or decoration.

Than you have no objective reason to believe.

 

[SkepticThinker]

If you think so, I don't see how you can believe mountains rise in slow pace.

This was in response to, "A flood of the magnitude you are talking about would not produce marine fossils on mountaintops. Rather, the intense waters would erode mountaintops and deposit the marine fossil sediments into valleys. Sea shells aren't found in sediments that weren't formerly covered by the ocean."

Who said anything about a slow pace?
Do you even read what I write?
Can you provide a response that actually addresses what I said?

 

[shunyadragon]

Why look up for evidence, what about the vast deposits of fossil fuels buried below? I think these are generally consistent with a global flood.

Why look at the evidence? The evidence demonstrates the vast number of fossils occur in thousands of feet of consolidated rock in orderly sequence of cycles of deposition in limestone, shale, sandstone and coal under our feet and inside the mountains. What we see is eroded rocks on the surface from the outcrops of these rock formations. The fossils eroded out formations limestone, shale and sandstone at the mountain tops extend down uniformly into the mountains. These thousands of feet of orderly cyclic rock formations span millions of years of earth history.

The point of Answers in Genesis is not as an absolute authority...no scientific interpretation can be that. The point is, they find evidence that aligns with the biblical narrative. There is nothing wrong with that and few others take any interest in trying to sort out the theological mess Theistic Evolution has caused in its dependency on naturalism over the bible.

Answers in Genesis considers it their policy that it rejects all scientific evidence that is in conflict with their interpretation of scripture. They do not accept the vast factual evidence described above.

There is no such thing as absolute authority in science, but there is the claim by Answers in Genesis based on the Bible. Science is "knowledge" based on the objective verifiable evidence of the history of the cosmos, earth and life that changes over time with new discoveries and research.

 

[1213]

This was in response to, "A flood of the magnitude you are talking about would not produce marine fossils on mountaintops. Rather, the intense waters would erode mountaintops and deposit the marine fossil sediments into valleys. Sea shells aren't found in sediments that weren't formerly covered by the ocean."

There is no reason to think the flood water came intensely. Also, many of the marine fossils would come after the flood covered everything. When water covered everything, marine animals could move in areas that now have mountains. And when the water level begun to decrease some of the animals were trapped in mountain areas where they stuck into the sediments and were fossilized.

 

[SkepticThinker]

There is no reason to think the flood water came intensely. Also, many of the marine fossils would come after the flood covered everything. When water covered everything, marine animals could move in areas that now have mountains. And when the water level begun to decrease some of the animals were trapped in mountain areas where they stuck into the sediments and were fossilized.

No.

How Maps And Mountain Fossils Led To Plate Tectonics

It took centuries for the modern theory of plate tectonics to become fully developed.

www.forbes.com

Explore Plate Tectonics

Learn about how plates move and their impact on the Earth's surface.

www.nationalgeographic.com

Nothing fishy about ancient marine fossils on Everest

A widely shared meme claims

www.aap.com.au

Also, you seem to have ignored the other problem with your claim that I mentioned.
"And the fossils we find there are not scattered about as though re-deposited through a mass flood. Rather, they are in the same position they would have been when they were alive. There are fossilized tracks and borrows left by these creatures showing again, that these regions were once under the ocean." These fossils are not scattered all around as though a flood re-deposited them.

 

[1213]

Also, you seem to have ignored the other problem with your claim that I mentioned.
"And the fossils we find there are not scattered about as though re-deposited through a mass flood. Rather, they are in the same position they would have been when they were alive. There are fossilized tracks and borrows left by these creatures showing again, that these regions were once under the ocean." These fossils are not scattered all around as though a flood re-deposited them.

No reason to assume that fossils would be scattered in any other way, in Biblical flood case. The Biblical flood would arrange different layers exactly as they can be found.

 

[Muffled]

There is when it is flat out claimed it can be proven.
Which is the claim that my post you replied to is in reply to.

Perhaps they are saying there are patterns in evidence.

 

[Muffled]

You cannot provide any objective evidence for the existence of Gods, therefore the human view of God of the mind only is subjective and highly variable and conflicting.

False, your intentional ignorance of science is profound. First science does not prove anything. The sciences of evolution have been falsified as the only possible explanation available for the history of life.

Can you provide any objective evidence for a different explanation for the history of life?

I believe objective evidence is materialistic blindness.

 

[shunyadragon]

I believe objective evidence is materialistic blindness.

Deliberate dodge of the issue at hand due to your intentional ignorance based on an ancient agenda.

Can you provide any objective evidence for a different explanation for the history of life?

Please address the question based a coherent response.

 

[shunyadragon]

There is no reason to think the flood water came intensely.

The Biblical account describes a sudden intense flood in a very short period of time.

Genesis 6:17 11 In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, on the seventeenth day of the second month—on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened. 12 And rain fell on the earth forty days and forty nights.

Also, many of the marine fossils would come after the flood covered everything. When water covered everything, marine animals could move in areas that now have mountains. And when the water level begun to decrease some of the animals were trapped in mountain areas where they stuck into the sediments and were fossilized.

Unbelievably false, The limited weathered fossils found on the surface all over the world reflect fossils in the rock formations that extend deep into the earth of rock formations thousands of feet deep.

 

[SkepticThinker]

No reason to assume that fossils would be scattered in any other way, in Biblical flood case. The Biblical flood would arrange different layers exactly as they can be found.

They are not "scattered' in a way that would match the Biblical story of a flood. That's the point.

 

[1213]

The Biblical account describes a sudden intense flood in a very short period of time.

Genesis 6:17 11 In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, on the seventeenth day of the second month—on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened. 12 And rain fell on the earth forty days and forty nights.

To me that is relatively slow, not intense.

Unbelievably false, The limited weathered fossils found on the surface all over the world reflect fossils in the rock formations that extend deep into the earth of rock formations thousands of feet deep.

Ok, and in Biblical point of view there are two explanations for that.
1) When the flood begun, it carried lot of sediments to the areas where orogenic mountains now are. During that time it is possible that some marine animals were captured and trapped into deeper layers.
2) After the flood, marine animals that were trapped, were buried deeper into the layers, because of land slides. After the flood, the orogenic mountains were not as solid as nowadays, which is why there were more easily landslides. This also explains the relatively sharp mountain formations that would not likely be possible in a slow eroding process, as some seem to believe.

 

[1213]

They are not "scattered' in a way that would match the Biblical story of a flood. That's the point.

Why do you think so? How do you think they should be scattered in Biblical flood?

 

[shunyadragon]

To me that is relatively slow, not intense.

Covering the whole world in forty days. That is an unbelievable imposible intense flood.

Ok, and in Biblical point of view there are two explanations for that.
1) When the flood begun, it carried lot of sediments to the areas where orogenic mountains now are. During that time it is possible that some marine animals were captured and trapped into deeper layers.
2) After the flood, marine animals that were trapped, were buried deeper into the layers, because of land slides. After the flood, the orogenic mountains were not as solid as nowadays, which is why there were more easily landslides. This also explains the relatively sharp mountain formations that would not likely be possible in a slow eroding process, as some seem to believe.

This is an impossible scenario given the nature of uniform consistent geologic formations thousands of feet deep with absolutely no evidence of floos like the Noah flood.

 

[1213]

Covering the whole world in forty days. That is an unbelievable imposible intense flood.

I think it is important to understand, the situation was not the same as it is now and therefore didn't require similar flood as it would now need. For example because after the flood, when modern continents were formed, water level has gone down, for example because the water has compressed stuff that sunk during the flood and caused the ocean floor level to go down.

This is an impossible scenario given the nature of uniform consistent geologic formations thousands of feet deep

Why the global flood could not cause that?

 

[shunyadragon]

I think it is important to understand, the situation was not the same as it is now and therefore didn't require similar flood as it would now need. For example because after the flood, when modern continents were formed, water level has gone down, for example because the water has compressed stuff that sunk during the flood and caused the ocean floor level to go down.

Why the global flood could not cause that?

There is no question the Bible describes a sudden flood of the whole world very suddenly, and that is physically impossible. by basic physics. The vast amount of evidence of rock strata over billions of years has determined the Laws of Nature, Physics and natural processes have not changed..

I am a geologist with 50 years experience and traveled the world studying geology. The type of sediment deposition found in the thousands of feet thick are deposited gradually in swamps, shallow seas, lakes, and other environments we have today. We know what flood deposits are like.

The documented evidence of a uniform geologic history of the earth is overwhelming. A very obvious up front example of 150,000 years of uniform natural laws and processes is found in the annual varves in a Lake in Japan. Each thin layer has a seasonal pollen that we can observe being deposited every year today. This is direct observable evidence of a uniform natural world of over 150,000 years.

Japanese lake sediment unlocks 150,000 years of history

www.socsci.ox.ac.uk

Japanese lake sediment unlocks 150,000 years of history​

Japanese lake sediment unlocks 150,000 years of history​

A long-running research relationship between Takeshi Nakagawa (Ritsumeikan University, Japan) and researchers in the Oxford University School of Archaeology has led to the ongoing study of sediment from a very special lake in Japan.​

The Lake Suigetsu Project has produced a global benchmark for radiocarbon dating and continues to provide significant data on volcanic eruptions and climate change. The growth of public interest in the lake led to the opening of the Varve Museum in 2018, drawing visitors from across Japan and beyond to experience this extraordinary research destination.

No one can demonstrate another explanation for these lake deposits.

 

[shunyadragon]

I think it is important to understand, the situation was not the same as it is now and therefore didn't require similar flood as it would now need. For example because after the flood, when modern continents were formed, water level has gone down, for example because the water has compressed stuff that sunk during the flood and caused the ocean floor level to go down.

Why the global flood could not cause that?

See this thread for the overwhelming evidence of dating the earth, fossils and rock formations:

Dating fossils and rock formations by scientific methods,

In a previous thread For trinity believers: Does your world come unravelled if Jesus is not God,but ONLY Gods Son? the question came up concerning the problems of science dating fossils by @Dimi95, which was off topic. It is a complex topic that deserves its own thread. The first question...

www.religiousforums.com

 

[1213]

There is no question the Bible describes a sudden flood of the whole world very suddenly, and that is physically impossible. by basic physics. The vast amount of evidence of rock strata over billions of years has determined the Laws of Nature, Physics and natural processes have not changed..

If sudden means 40 days, then I can accept it. I personally would call one day event sudden, not 40 day event. However, I think important thing to understand is, in biblical point of view water didn't really rise in absolute point of view. For an observer it looked so, but it was actually the dry land that sunk, which caused the illusion of water level rising. That is the key to understand the flood.

The documented evidence of a uniform geologic history of the earth is overwhelming. A very obvious up front example of 150,000 years of uniform natural laws and processes is found in the annual varves in a Lake in Japan. Each thin layer has a seasonal pollen that we can observe being deposited every year today. This is direct observable evidence of a uniform natural world of over 150,000 years.

Japanese lake sediment unlocks 150,000 years of history

www.socsci.ox.ac.uk

...

Thanks, that is interesting.

I don't trust carbon dating. It can give wrong times, also by what I know, it can't be used for that old stuff.

And anyway, I think different layers tells about rains. If there is only one rain in a year, it cases only one trace. If there would be 40 days of rain, it could carry 40 layers, because it could erode many layers of earth and transfer them to the bottom of a lake.

 

[shunyadragon]

If sudden means 40 days, then I can accept it. I personally would call one day event sudden, not 40 day event. However, I think important thing to understand is, in biblical point of view water didn't really rise in absolute point of view. For an observer it looked so, but it was actually the dry land that sunk, which caused the illusion of water level rising. That is the key to understand the flood.

World flood in 40 days is unbelievably sudden. Even in the Biblical narrative the ground DID NOT sink

Thanks, that is interesting.

I don't trust carbon dating. It can give wrong times, also by what I know, it can't be used for that old stuff.

This is based on your intentional ignorance of the facts of radiometric dating methods. They are not used alone, but correlated with other dating methods, I referred to this thread: Dating fossils and rock formations by scientific methods, that documents the accuracy of radiometric dating and you choose to ignore it like you ignore all science.

Radiometric Carbon 14 dating has been used to date the accuracy of some of the Biblical events.

​

And anyway, I think different layers tells about rains. If there is only one rain in a year, it cases only one trace. If there would be 40 days of rain, it could carry 40 layers, because it could erode many layers of earth and transfer them to the bottom of a lake.

This is absolutely false for all varve formation in all lakes of the world, They are documented by direct observation to form one layer with a pollen layer that occurs in the spring of each year. The only effect of rainfall is that each layer may change in thickness based on rainfall. The direct observation of varves over time proves you false.

You only express what you 'think' based on an ancient tribal agenda, and bring no coherent evidence to the table. Logically you are committing the ignorantium fallacy