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The Problem of Evil has been solved.(?)

Koldo

Outstanding Member
I agree, evil is not a problem, it is what people choose and want. In the beginning people wanted to know evil like God knows. That is why they were expelled to this first death, where we can experience what evil truly means. Luckily this is just a short lesson and those who are, or become righteous can get back to life, without evil.

Evil cannot destroy our soul, which is the important thing, Therefore evil is not a problem, only something that people wanted to know, and God allowed it, because He is good.

There are several arguments against this:

- The fall is not an historical event.
- Knowing evil doesn't mean experiencing evil.
- It being a short experience doesn't justify it.
- Evil not being able to destroy our souls doesn't make it justified. The existence of souls hasn't even been proven either.
- Allowing people to experience evil is not good.
- You are establishing an arbitrary parameter to determine whether evil is a problem.
- It has not been proven that the righteous can get back to life.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
There are layers of objections to "abrahamic" theism coming from the PoE. Critics of it have patience for discussing the first layer or two, but, I have never met a critic who is willing to look at it in total, acknowlege and evaluate their assumptions, and fill in the gaps in their knowledge of theology.

For me, I found a great deal of solace putting the peices together, seeing the puzzle completed. Because. I love my religion. That's what fueled my pssion to find an answer to this problem. Critics, I expect, receive that same sense of solace from their objections. This has the converse effect. They have almost zero patience for discussing this in depth. For these people, the perceived inherent contradicitons in the abrahamic faith are very important for them, personally, in order for the individual to make sense of the world. In the worst cases, showing the individual that they're wrong about the PoE, will send them into a bit of tail-spin. It's because the hooks and barbs from the their childhood indoctrination never really go away. The religion was engraved on their personality. It will always be there, the individual will need to re-convince themself, justify, regularly, that leaving their faith, and all the associated heart-ache, family turmoil, that comes with it, was the right choice for them. If they're shown they're wrong about the PoE, it opens up the possibllity they are wrong about God. This is not good for the bible-critic who is coping with being raised in a harmful environment.

If the individual, like me, finds solace in the the PoE, but from the opposing valence, they will never listen to me with an open mind for the entire duration of the discussion. It's too complicated. They're going to lose patience. Naturally. It will be be irritating for them. I'll be accused of apologetics, with mocking and virtual snickers. And, I completely understand. But, this puts me in an awkward position. I need to determine whether or not the individual actually wants me to answer the question. Or, are they arguing with me looking for an opportnity to validate the reasons they left their faith, the reasons they blame the ignorant irrational God-believers in America ( and Israel ) for the entire world's problems. If I decide, "Yes, they are actually curious" then I need to decide where to begin. Should I just go for it, and explain in detail from the beginning? Or, do I give little bits which don't actually address the dilemma, but, at least I look like I have some of it figured out. Even if I don't solve it completely for the individual, it will produce a modicum of credibility for future discussion?

But. Regardless of my approach:

If they are looking for validation, if they need my religion to be wrong and false and contadictiory in order to make sense of the world? To be completely honest, it's probably wrong for me to take that away from them. They need to find fault my religion, in that way? To make sense of their world and the circumstances they observe around them, near and far?

The PoE is an argument against a very specific kind of god. And believing in an omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent god is not mandatory to be a member of any religion. In other words, the PoE doesn't make any religion false and wrong per se. It only targets one specific belief.
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
Only if your god is perfect in all aspects, we have to expect a perfect world with no gratuitous suffering.

Not only.

the PoE is not a good argument in my view as it is so easy to get rid of.

Hence the reluctance to look at it in depth. It's assumed to be easy. Bible critics almost always over-simplify.

You just have to make a little compromise.

Yes and no. Yes, because my reasoning presumes a specific type of creator god. If I compromise on that, yes, the rest of my reasoning is invalid. No, because the written Torah describes a specific type of creator god, which necessariy must be omni-benevolent for purely logical reasons.

So, I ask, are we talking about theology? What's written in the Torah? Or not? If so, there cannot be any compromise. If not, absolutley there's many many good ways to compromise and accept that God is either not perfect, or not benevolent, or absent, etc.

I carry no baggage, as I never left a faith, and I'm not bound to a biblical god (especially as there are so many of those).
My interest is mostly philosophic in this question. I'm just annoyed by bad logic. And believing in a tri-omni god, in face of reality, is bad logic.

I hear you. I agree it is more likely, in the face of reality, that God is not tri-omni. Judiasm teaches to pivot, and face reality in different ways. Arguably, the entire Torah is teaching this one lesson over and over again.

Only if your god is perfect in all aspects, we have to expect a perfect world with no gratuitous suffering.

Not only. There's ways to consider this which are logically consistent and supremely saticfying for the psyche. We've been discussing it in Judaism for over a thousand years.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
It's the other way around.
Do you really think that Nazis believed in a God? No...they were all atheists.
Which entails that M. Luther was an atheist, too. Since he shared the same antisemitism as the nazis. He actually inspired them.

but since it is absurd to claim that M. Luther was an atheist, your conclusion does not follow. On the contrary, Christianity is the main historic perp of pogroms and exterminations of Jews.

ciao

- viole
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
No, because the written Torah describes a specific type of creator god, which necessariy must be omni-benevolent for purely logical reasons.
I don't want to go too deep into theology. I'm not very versed in that. From the little I know, I'd say that some characters in the stories say that YHVH is a benevolent god. But the descriptions differ. According to those
quote-the-god-of-the-old-testament-is-arguably-the-most-unpleasant-character-in-all-fiction-richard-dawkins-35-3-0340.jpg

I hear you. I agree it is more likely, in the face of reality, that God is not tri-omni. Judiasm teaches to pivot, and face reality in different ways. Arguably, the entire Torah is teaching this one lesson over and over again.
:thumbsup:
Not only. There's ways to consider this which are logically consistent and supremely saticfying for the psyche. We've been discussing it in Judaism for over a thousand years.
I don't understand. Or maybe you didn't. I was saying that there is no PoE for any god less than a perfect tri-omni one.
Only that one very specific god has that problem.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Which entails that M. Luther was an atheist, too. Since he shared the same antisemitism as the nazis. He actually inspired them.

but since it is absurd to claim that M. Luther was an atheist, your conclusion does not follow. On the contrary, Christianity is the main historic perp of pogroms and exterminations of Jews.

ciao

- viole
Did you read The Banality of Evil by Arendt?
Aka Eichmann in Jerusalem.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
don't want to...



It's a natural conclusion, if one does not want to "go too deep into theology".
So, are you saying that lesser gods have a PoE? How so? Any flaw they have can be used as an excuse for the suffering in the world.
 

BrokenBread

Member
Monkey see, monkey do. They watch us lying.
So it follows then that the only reason 1 year old sitting among a pile of toys reaches and snatches away the one toy another child picks up is because they have seen it done before ?
Or is there something else going on there ?
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
So it follows then that the only reason 1 year old sitting among a pile of toys reaches and snatches away the one toy another child picks up is because they have seen it done before ?
Is that lying?
Or is there something else going on there ?
There is something else going on, but we don't know exactly know how much of human behaviour is "nature" or "nurture". (Or how much that may vary individually.)
Lying is seen as an important milestone in development, as it shows a theory of mind. (The child has to realize that the parent doesn't know what happened, and that there is a difference between reality and reporting.)
 
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Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
So, are you saying that lesser gods have a PoE? How so? Any flaw they have can be used as an excuse for the suffering in the world.
The problem of evil is still unresolved in your country.

Because there has been no closure yet. There has never been a specific process of collective realization of what the Nazizeit had been.
It's been tucked away.

It's something under the rug, beyond good and evil.

It's obvious that (with all due respect, of course) you are not even defining what evil is, in this thread.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
The problem of evil is still unresolved in your country.

Because there has been no closure yet. There has never been a specific process of collective realization of what the Nazizeit had been.
It's been tucked away.

It's something under the rug, beyond good and evil.

It's obvious that (with all due respect, of course) you are not even defining what evil is, in this thread.
WTF?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Can we cause volcanoes, earthquakes and meteorite impacts? Also, no.
So these events must be caused by an omnipotent, omniscient god, if it exists, and the Christian has to find excuses how this can be benevolent.
Just because humans did not cause volcanoes, earthquakes and meteorite impacts that does not mean that God caused them.
Have you never heard of natural occurrences?
 
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