The Problem of Paul for All Faiths/Outlooks

[Simplelogic]

7And Abraham ran unto the herd, and fetcht a calf tender and good, and gave it unto a young man; and he hasted to dress it.8And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat. Gen 12:7-8

 

[dantech]

Please then, present your verses from Torah which proves your claim of needing a Jewish mother to prove ones Jewishness. I will be waiting.

See post #142.

I would also love to expose your false milk/meat complex which the Torah doesn't teach. Take the Rabbinic blinders off!! Abraham served the angels a double cheeseburger when they showed up!

I believe in the Talmud, and have studied this way more than just reading that one verse about Abraham eating butter with meat. If you would like to start a thread on this specific teaching, go ahead, but we're not going to deviate from this. If you do start a thread, you need to know that I consider the Talmud binding, so to start, you would need to prove to me that it isn't.

 

[Rhiamom]

3And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. Gen 12:3

Rabbi Eleazar further stated: “What is meant by the text: ‘And in thee shall the families of the earth be blessed [Genesis 12:1]?’ The Holy One, blessed be He, said to Abraham, ‘I have two goodly shoots to engraft on you: Ruth the Moabitess and Naamah the Ammonitess.’ All the families of the earth, even the other families who live on the earth are blessed only for Israel's sake. All the nations of the earth, even the ships that go from Gaul to Spain are blessed only for Israel's sake.” (b.Yevamot 63a)

The word for “blessed” in Genesis 12:1 is v’nivrachu. Lancaster writes: “The Hebrew verb (v’nivrachu) translated as ‘will be blessed’ is related to a Mishnaic Hebrew term (mavrich) that means ‘to intermingle, to graft.’ Thus, one might translate the verse as ‘All peoples on earth will be grafted into you.’” [1] The context of the passage in Genesis dictates that it is impossible that this was the original intent of the verse but the sages like to dig into the texts and pull out new interpretations.

How can Ruth the Moabitess and Naamah the Ammonitess be added into Israel if the Torah states “No Ammonite or Moabite may enter the assembly of the LORD” (Deuteronomy 23:3)? The sages reason that they are no longer considered a Moabitess or an Ammonitess because they were grafted into Abraham, i.e., cut off from their old root and grafted onto a new one.

Finding a quote from the Talmud that uses the term grafting is no proof. I asked for a quote from Torah or Tanach. The Sages were exploring potential additional interpretations of the verse, and what you quoted plainly states that it is impossible for that to be the literal meaning of the verse.

Ruth is widely regarded as the first convert. She did not retain her Gentile status. You are STILL trying to use your own definition of grafting, and not the common Christian concept to which it refers. That a rabbi might have used the term hundreds and hundreds of years ago is meaningless, as he had no way of knowing about Christian replacement theology. Again, this is a conversion of a person, not a grafting of a Gentile. The case of Naamah is the same, a conversion. Please stop equating a conversion to Judaism with the grafting of Gentiles. Grafting retains Gentile status; conversion does not.

 

[Rhiamom]

Have you checked the Torah to see what its qualifications are for being Jewish?? Probably not, blind adherence to false Rabbinic enactments does not equate to truth. Only YHVH's Torah is truth, which you have replace.

Having a Jewish mother is NOT the litmus test for determining someones Jewishness and the Torah agrees with me.

You are right. The true litmus test for being Jewish is whether other Jewish people accept someone as Jewish. How many synagogues have welcomed you as Jewish, not needing conversion? How many non-Messianic Jewish people on Internet fora have agreed you are Jewish? None? You are a Christian, not a Jew.

 

[Desert Snake]

3And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. Gen 12:3

Rabbi Eleazar further stated: “What is meant by the text: ‘And in thee shall the families of the earth be blessed [Genesis 12:1]?’ The Holy One, blessed be He, said to Abraham, ‘I have two goodly shoots to engraft on you: Ruth the Moabitess and Naamah the Ammonitess.’ All the families of the earth, even the other families who live on the earth are blessed only for Israel's sake. All the nations of the earth, even the ships that go from Gaul to Spain are blessed only for Israel's sake.” (b.Yevamot 63a)

The word for “blessed” in Genesis 12:1 is v’nivrachu. Lancaster writes: “The Hebrew verb (v’nivrachu) translated as ‘will be blessed’ is related to a Mishnaic Hebrew term (mavrich) that means ‘to intermingle, to graft.’ Thus, one might translate the verse as ‘All peoples on earth will be grafted into you.’” [1] The context of the passage in Genesis dictates that it is impossible that this was the original intent of the verse but the sages like to dig into the texts and pull out new interpretations.

How can Ruth the Moabitess and Naamah the Ammonitess be added into Israel if the Torah states “No Ammonite or Moabite may enter the assembly of the LORD” (Deuteronomy 23:3)? The sages reason that they are no longer considered a Moabitess or an Ammonitess because they were grafted into Abraham, i.e., cut off from their old root and grafted onto a new one.

This isn't relevant to circumcision. For example I wasn't raised Jewish, hence no circumcision custom, however I do follow certain dietary laws etc. from the OT. That is because there are different types of 'laws' being referred to in the Bible, and circumcision is specifically for Judaism, whereas other rules are also good to follow for Xians.
Anyways, since you don't believe in any verbal Torah, or other religious ideas within Judaic belief, we aren't going to agree.

 

[Simplelogic]

You are right. The true litmus test for being Jewish is whether other Jewish people accept someone as Jewish. How many synagogues have welcomed you as Jewish, not needing conversion? How many non-Messianic Jewish people on Internet fora have agreed you are Jewish? None? You are a Christian, not a Jew.

Thankfully I know my family history and what the Torah says about it. I need no other opinion.

 

[Rhiamom]

Thankfully I know my family history and what the Torah says about it. I need no other opinion.

You say you need no other opinion only because nobody else will agree with you. You are not Jewish, but neither are you Christian enough for the Christians. You have created your own religion, and are trying to persuade others to join you in your heresies.

If you did not care what others think of you, you would simply go off and live your life according to your beliefs. You do care, though. You want a group of fellow believers. You want your beliefs validated, or to at least make others wonder about their own. Unfortunately, the downside to a roll your own religion is the lack of fellow believers and fellowship. That you are actively denigrating the religion of others in order to make yours seem superior shows how flawed your religion really is. The evidence you use to "prove" you are correct does not when nobody else agrees with your unique interpretation. Think harder, and outside your little box.

 

[Simplelogic]

This isn't relevant to circumcision. For example I wasn't raised Jewish, hence no circumcision custom, however I do follow certain dietary laws etc. from the OT. That is because there are different types of 'laws' being referred to in the Bible, and circumcision is specifically for Judaism, whereas other rules are also good to follow for Xians.
Anyways, since you don't believe in any verbal Torah, or other religious ideas within Judaic belief, we aren't going to agree.

It is relevant. YHVH only outlines ONE way for gentles to enter the covenant….CIRCUMCISION. Both of the heart and of the flesh. Please understand that I am not talking about salvation. Gentiles don't need to be part of the covenant to be in good standing with YHVH.

 

[Simplelogic]

You say you need no other opinion only because nobody else will agree with you. You are not Jewish, but neither are you Christian enough for the Christians. You have created your own religion, and are trying to persuade others to join you in your heresies.

If you did not care what others think of you, you would simply go off and live your life according to your beliefs. You do care, though. You want a group of fellow believers. You want your beliefs validated, or to at least make others wonder about their own. Unfortunately, the downside to a roll your own religion is the lack of fellow believers and fellowship. That you are actively denigrating the religion of others in order to make yours seem superior shows how flawed your religion really is. The evidence you use to "prove" you are correct does not when nobody else agrees with your unique interpretation. Think harder, and outside your little box.

I follow the Torah strictly. You can label my beliefs "heresies" all you want but it doesn't change my perspective. I could say the same thing to you. Thinking that man has the right to change or alter the written Torah is blasphemous to YHVH. This is why I follow Yeshua. He called mankind back to pure Torah and was killed for it.

 

[Simplelogic]

You say you need no other opinion only because nobody else will agree with you. You are not Jewish, but neither are you Christian enough for the Christians. You have created your own religion, and are trying to persuade others to join you in your heresies.

Think harder, and outside your little box.

I could care less wether you believe like me. You can't claim that I have "created something" then claim in the next breath that I need to think outside of "my little box". I am obviously outside of the box which is why you are charging me with creating something new. Ironically, it is your mind which is trapped in an false religious ideology which negates and devalues the written Torah while claiming to be "authoritative". Its a lie.

 

[Rhiamom]

I follow the Torah strictly. You can label my beliefs "heresies" all you want but it doesn't change my perspective. I could say the same thing to you. Thinking that man has the right to change or alter the written Torah is blasphemous to YHVH. This is why I follow Yeshua. He called mankind back to pure Torah and was killed for it.

And yet you accept part of the Christian scriptures in addition to the Torah, and insist that is not an addition. It is more an addition than the Talmud, which explains, considers, and derives from Torah. Your personal theology is not even consistent. Think more logically and put less emphasis on the things you want so desperately to hold onto, like Jesus.

 

[Rhiamom]

I could care less wether you believe like me. You can't claim that I have "created something" then claim in the next breath that I need to think outside of "my little box". I am obviously outside of the box which is why you are charging me with creating something new. Ironically, it is your mind which is trapped in an false religious ideology which negates and devalues the written Torah while claiming to be "authoritative". Its a lie.

You have created your own little box, based on your own flawed theology. I live in the large box named Judaism, refined and defined by minds much better than mine.

I have not accepted the Talmud blindly. I have considered the effects of having or not having the Talmud on Judaism, and found that it is essential. I do not agree that it is Moshe mi Sinai, but I agree that it is authoritative. Even if that authority comes only from the agreement of Jewish people, and no other source, it remains authoritative. By refusing the authority of Talmud you reject the Jewish people. And yet you used the Talmud to try to prove a point. Is it authoritative or not? You twist and turn in the wind, grasping at anything to support your views, and twisting what does not support your views into something that you can claim does. You are a missionary bent on imposing your personal, "correct" views on Real Jews. If you were not you would not denigrate Judaism, but chat happily with your fellow Messianic Jews in your own DIR. But you don't want to chat with fellow Messianics, you want to convert Jews to what you believe; a totally Christian mindset.

 

[Desert Snake]

It is relevant. YHVH only outlines ONE way for gentles to enter the covenant….CIRCUMCISION. Both of the heart and of the flesh. Please understand that I am not talking about salvation. Gentiles don't need to be part of the covenant to be in good standing with YHVH.

Again, that is only for conversion into Judaism, you're mixing apples and oranges, and the teachings of Jesus to suit your own theories, that's all. There are various points where your ideas even contradict, but you refuse to fully clarify why you don't accept traditional, obvious fact regarding Hebraic tradition and belief.

 

[Rhiamom]

Again, that is only for conversion into Judaism, you're mixing apples and oranges, and the teachings of Jesus to suit your own theories, that's all. There are various points where your ideas even contradict, but you refuse to fully clarify why you don't accept traditional, obvious fact regarding Hebraic tradition and belief.

I suppose that poor SimpleLogic is beset by a severe case of cognitive dissonance, in that he wants to be a Jew, but he doesn't want to practice Judaism. A couple more years of study, provided his mind remains open rather than closed off by his prejudices, ought to remedy the problem and lead him to Real Judaism.

 

[Simplelogic]

I suppose that poor SimpleLogic is beset by a severe case of cognitive dissonance, in that he wants to be a Jew, but he doesn't want to practice Judaism. A couple more years of study, provided his mind remains open rather than closed off by his prejudices, ought to remedy the problem and lead him to Real Judaism.

I'm so troubled.

 

[Simplelogic]

And yet you accept part of the Christian scriptures in addition to the Torah, and insist that is not an addition. It is more an addition than the Talmud, which explains, considers, and derives from Torah. Your personal theology is not even consistent. Think more logically and put less emphasis on the things you want so desperately to hold onto, like Jesus.

Haha…"in addition to the Torah". As if you don't understand the concept of preserving the words of YHVH's prophets. You simply don't believe Yeshua was a prophet so I see why don't regard the gospels.
Actually you bring up an interesting point. The irony behind all of this is that the gospels actually teach complete adherence to Torah! Contrary to popular Chrsitian opinion. The Talmud adds commands and nullifies others. So yes, the gospels do much more to advance true Torah then all the writings of the Rabbi's put together. Sorry if this offends you.

 

[Simplelogic]

Again, that is only for conversion into Judaism, you're mixing apples and oranges, and the teachings of Jesus to suit your own theories, that's all. There are various points where your ideas even contradict, but you refuse to fully clarify why you don't accept traditional, obvious fact regarding Hebraic tradition and belief.

"How can Ruth the Moabitess and Naamah the Ammonitess be added into Israel if the Torah states “No Ammonite or Moabite may enter the assembly of the LORD” (Deuteronomy 23:3)? The sages reason that they are no longer considered a Moabitess or an Ammonitess because they were grafted into Abraham, i.e., cut off from their old root and grafted onto a new one."

 

[Desert Snake]

"How can Ruth the Moabitess and Naamah the Ammonitess be added into Israel if the Torah states “No Ammonite or Moabite may enter the assembly of the LORD” (Deuteronomy 23:3)? The sages reason that they are no longer considered a Moabitess or an Ammonitess because they were grafted into Abraham, i.e., cut off from their old root and grafted onto a new one."

What is the relevance of this?

 

[Simplelogic]

What is the relevance of this?

You stated that I am comparing apples to oranges in regards to the concept of grafting/conversion. I am showing that the concept of grafting is a valid Torah concept.

 

[Desert Snake]

You stated that I am comparing apples to oranges in regards to the concept of grafting/conversion. I am showing that the concept of grafting is a valid Torah concept.

That's not grafting, though. That's conversion.
Regardless, this debate is going nowhere.