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The Problem of Paul for All Faiths/Outlooks

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
sadly it's not that easy, according to the muritan(probably misspelled) canon, the Revelation of Peter was part of the Bible, but it state that certaiN people didn't want it read in church.

It also depends on what Bible your talking of, and no I'm not talking about translations. I'm talking like the Etheopian Bible, which contains 6+- books more than modern translations. The Pe****ta contains 5 less books.

It is interesting that there were certain books that they did not want to be read among the congregations... If we consider that the early christians were being led by the 'helper' or holy spirit, then perhaps some of those writings were not actually being read because they were not inspired by holy spirit. And even if the christians thought the writing was actually from the Apostle Peter, something was preventing them from using it as a basis of teaching.

I think that is an indication that the writing was not actually from Peter at all and the spirit was preventing it from being used.


The Bible we use is the one that was accepted by the earliest catalogues...earlier then the Catholic churchs' councils... the bible books had been used by the congregations and passed around for centuries before the Catholics confirmed which books were to be included in the cannon. By examining all those earlier canons, we can be confident with what we have in our current English bibles.
 

te_lanus

Alien Hybrid
It is interesting that there were certain books that they did not want to be read among the congregations... If we consider that the early christians were being led by the 'helper' or holy spirit, then perhaps some of those writings were not actually being read because they were not inspired by holy spirit. And even if the christians thought the writing was actually from the Apostle Peter, something was preventing them from using it as a basis of teaching.

I think that is an indication that the writing was not actually from Peter at all and the spirit was preventing it from being used.
People was preventing it to get in the Bible. Like the four Gospels. In the beginning there was more, but with the Arrival of Marcion, and His Teaching, the Catholic Church had to choose the books they wanted the Catholic people to read. One of the Church Fathers (me can't remember the Persons name) said there can only be four Gospels as there is Four directions that the wind can come from, so because of his stature in the church as one of the main "apostles" .

The Revelation of Peter was "rejected" not because of the "Spirit" but because of mans intervention.


The Bible we use is the one that was accepted by the earliest catalogues...earlier then the Catholic churchs' councils... the bible books had been used by the congregations and passed around for centuries before the Catholics confirmed which books were to be included in the cannon. By examining all those earlier canons, we can be confident with what we have in our current English bibles.
The Bible as we know it today only came into existence in 1725, after the English and American Bible Societies decided it's no longer Profitable to print the Deuterocanonical books in the Middle of the Bible between the Old Testament and the New Testament.

Most Canon lists that include the Old testament that was written before Jerome included the Deuterocanonical as part of the Bible. St. Augustine, in rebuttal of Jerome's Latin Vulgate said that Peter, when peter started the Roman Church, would not have given them a Bible that was not from God (since Peter gave them the Septuagint)

Unfortunately People had more influance on what is in the Bible than what God had. Greed, Power and Personal Theology shaped the Bible in ways most people don't know. Like 1 John 5:7-8 most scholars believe it's fake
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
People was preventing it to get in the Bible. Like the four Gospels. In the beginning there was more, but with the Arrival of Marcion, and His Teaching, the Catholic Church had to choose the books they wanted the Catholic people to read. One of the Church Fathers (me can't remember the Persons name) said there can only be four Gospels as there is Four directions that the wind can come from, so because of his stature in the church as one of the main "apostles" .

The Revelation of Peter was "rejected" not because of the "Spirit" but because of mans intervention.

Did you know that this particular book was the first so-called 'christian writing to describe the punishments and torture of sinners in hell?

For that reason, it went way off the teachings of Christ which said that sinners would enter 'everlasting cutting off' (Matt 25:46 These will depart into everlasting cutting-off, but the righteous ones into everlasting life.”). Whereas this piece of false doctrine promotes the hellish ideas of pagan religions.

The Bible as we know it today only came into existence in 1725, after the English and American Bible Societies decided it's no longer Profitable to print the Deuterocanonical books in the Middle of the Bible between the Old Testament and the New Testament.

we are not talking about how our bibles are printed and how we receive them... we are talking about legitimate christian writings which have always been used by the congregations and accepted by church authorities as true christian writings.
Christianity began in the first century and all the writings of the first century church were complete by the end of that century. They are

Matthew Gospel
1*Thessalonians
2*Thessalonians
Galatians
1*Corinthians
2*Corinthians
Romans
Luke Gospel
Ephesians
Colossians
Philemon
Philippians
Hebrews
Acts
James
Mark Gospel
1*Timothy
Titus
1*Peter
2*Peter
2*Timothy
Jude
Revelation
John Gospel
1*John
2*John
3*John

Most Canon lists that include the Old testament that was written before Jerome included the Deuterocanonical as part of the Bible. St. Augustine, in rebuttal of Jerome's Latin Vulgate said that Peter, when peter started the Roman Church, would not have given them a Bible that was not from God (since Peter gave them the Septuagint)

Unfortunately People had more influance on what is in the Bible than what God had. Greed, Power and Personal Theology shaped the Bible in ways most people don't know. Like 1 John 5:7-8 most scholars believe it's fake

people have always been disputing the authenticity of the writings in both the NT and Hebrew scriptures, but the fact is we need only examine their contents to know what is pagan in origin and what is from God. When you find ideas originating in pagan religions, you can immediately dismiss the book as unchristian or unjewish.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
I guess it is a relevant question to as "who did God charge with guarding His testimony?"

Jews or Gentiles?

We should realise that God allowed the Jewish priesthood to come to an end and the temple to be ruined, so we shouldnt expect that the scriptures needed to be protected by the Jewish religious system after 70 CE.

From that point on, Christs Jewish followers were protecting the Hebrew scriptures and writing the new scriptures based on Christs teachings and direction.
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
We should realise that God allowed the Jewish priesthood to come to an end and the temple to be ruined, so we shouldnt expect that the scriptures needed to be protected by the Jewish religious system after 70 CE.

From that point on, Christs Jewish followers were protecting the Hebrew scriptures and writing the new scriptures based on Christs teachings and direction.

Not so fast!!

Why do you assume because the Temple is destroyed that "Jewish" priesthood has come to an end. You have been listening to the book of Hebrews haven't you. O boy.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but YHVH has not changed one promise to Israel. Gentiles have no place into that covenant either. They must become Torah compliant to be grafted into the covenant. At which point they "cross-over" to being a Hebrew and NOT a gentile! Paul sold you a lie. The Torah tells us exactly how gentiles should be grafted into Israel.

The Temple is coming back…Check Ezekiel's prophecies
The Levites are coming back…check Isaiah's
The Torah is coming back…check Malachi

This isn't the first time that YHVH took these things away from Israel because of their disobedience.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Not so fast!!

Why do you assume because the Temple is destroyed that "Jewish" priesthood has come to an end. You have been listening to the book of Hebrews haven't you. O boy.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but YHVH has not changed one promise to Israel. Gentiles have no place into that covenant either. They must become Torah compliant to be grafted into the covenant. At which point they "cross-over" to being a Hebrew and NOT a gentile! Paul sold you a lie. The Torah tells us exactly how gentiles should be grafted into Israel.

The Temple is coming back…Check Ezekiel's prophecies
The Levites are coming back…check Isaiah's
The Torah is coming back…check Malachi

This isn't the first time that YHVH took these things away from Israel because of their disobedience.

Hebrews was written before the destruction of the the temple... so Paul actually wrote what he did even before the priesthood was removed. Jesus himself said it.
Luke 21:5, 6 Later, when some were speaking about the temple, how it was adorned with fine stones and dedicated things, 6 he said: “As for these things that you now see, the days will come when not a stone will be left upon a stone and not be thrown down.

But God has always purposed to save 'mankind' and by 'mankind' I mean people of all the nations... just as he promised to Abraham:

Genesis 22:
18 And by means of your seed all nations of the earth will certainly bless themselves due to the fact that you have listened to my voice.’”

Isreal had the priveledge of leading mankind to God through Christ, but obviously they could only continue to do that if they actually accepted the Messiah themselves. Gods promise to bless all the nations was not going to be forgotten just because the jewish religious system at the time did not accept the messiah. It was a jewish remnant who did accept the Messiah and the responsibility to graft in people of all the nations fell on them...and they did a fantastic job at bringing many to a righteous standing before God. So in the end the Jews did save mankind... just not the jewish religious system.
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
Almost all scholars maintain that the book of Hebrews was written AFTER the Temple's destruction. It really is irrelevant who wrote the book. It was either Paul or Barnabas. The logic found in the book is 100% Pauline inspired.

It is clear that Hebrews contradicts the mindset of the Jerusalem church which believed in animal sacrifices after Yeshua's resurrection.

It also contradicts Ezekiels prophecies of restored animal sacrifices in the Messianic kingdom to come.

At first glance, the author of Hebrews seems to have a great deal of knowledge about the Temple practices, however, even the claims made regarding sacrifices and Temple laws are very different than those found in the Torah. I have done a critique of the book of Hebrews and I can prove that Hebrews contradicts the Torah MANY times.
 
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Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Almost all scholars maintain that the book of Hebrews was written AFTER the Temple's destruction. It really is irrelevant who wrote the book. It was either Paul or Barnabas. The logic found in the book is 100% Pauline inspired.

It is clear that Hebrews contradicts the mindset of the Jerusalem church which believed in animal sacrifices after Yeshua's resurrection.

Do you have some scriptural references you can point me to?

It also contradicts Ezekiels prophecies of restored animal sacrifices in the Messianic kingdom to come.

Can you direct me to those verses ?

At first glance, the author of Hebrews seems to have a great deal of knowledge about the Temple practices, however, even the claims made regarding sacrifices and Temple laws are very different than those found in the Torah. I have done a critique of the book of Hebrews and I can prove that Hebrews contradicts the Torah MANY times.

Could you point out a few of the contradictions you believe it to contain?
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
Do you have some scriptural references you can point me to?

The earliest possible date is 65AD. Five years before the Temple was destroyed. The latest possible is 100AD. Some scholars have argued that the author had in depth knowledge of the Temple and this is why it should be dated before the destruction. I will attempt to demonstrate that this can't possibly be the case. The author mentions the work of the apostles in the past tense and most believe it was written after there ministries. Either way there is a dilemma for this epistle. If the author was writing before the destruction then he was literally going against the views of James (Yeshua's brother) and the 12, who still believed in continued animal sacrifices. Not an "end all" sacrifice as the letter asserts.



Can you direct me to those verses ?

Yes.

Ezekiel 45 is ONE of them. He is speaking of the future Temple which the Messiah will be in:

13“This is the offering that you shall offer: a sixth of an ephah from a homer of wheat; a sixth of an ephah from a homer of barley; 14and the prescribed portion of oil (namely, the bath of oil), a tenth of a bath from each kor (which is ten baths or a homer, for ten baths are a homer); 15and one sheep fromeach flock of two hundred from the watering places of Israel—for a grain offering, for a burnt offering and for peace offerings, to make atonement for them,” declares the Lord GOD. 16“All the people of the land shall give to this offering for the prince (Messiah) in Israel. 17“It shall be the prince’s part (Messiah) to provide the burnt offerings, the grain offerings and the drink offerings, at the feasts, on the new moons and on the sabbaths, at all the appointed feasts of the house of Israel; he shall provide the sin offering, the grain offering, the burnt offering and the peace offerings, to make atonement for the house of Israel.

18‘Thus says the Lord GOD, “In the first month, on the first of the month, you shall take a young bull without blemish and cleanse the sanctuary. 19“The priest shall take some of the blood from the sin offering and put it on the door posts of the house, on the four corners of the ledge of the altar and on the posts of the gate of the inner court. 20“Thus you shall do on the seventh day of the month for everyone who goes astray or is naive; so you shall make atonement for the house.

21“In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, you shall have the Passover, a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten. 22“On that day the prince shall provide for himself and all the people of the land a bull for a sin offering. 23During the seven days of the feast he shall provide as a burnt offering to the LORD seven bulls and seven rams without blemish on every day of the seven days, and a male goat daily for a sin offering. 24“He shall provide as a grain offering an ephah with a bull, an ephah with a ram and a hin of oil with an ephah. 25“In the seventh month, on the fifteenth day of the month, at the feast, he shall provide like this, seven days for the sin offering, the burnt offering, the grain offering and the oil.”





Could you point out a few of the contradictions you believe it to contain?

Hebrews 9 Then indeed, even the first covenant had ordinances of divine service and the earthly sanctuary. 2 For a tabernacle was prepared: the first part, in which was the lampstand, the table, and the showbread, which is called the sanctuary; 3 and behind the second veil, the part of the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of All, 4 which had the golden censer and the ark of the covenant overlaid on all sides with gold, in which were the golden pot that had the manna, Aaron’s rod that budded, and the tablets of the covenant; 5 and above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat. Of these things we cannot now speak in detail.

This is where the writer of Hebrews tries to impress the readers with his knowledge of the Temple artifacts. The only problem is that he is wrong. The golden pot and Aaron’s rod were never placed in the ark at all!

The Golden Pot

Ex 16:32-34:

32 Then Moses said, “This is the thing which the Lord has commanded: ‘Fill an omer with it, to be kept for your generations, that they may see the bread with which I fed you in the wilderness, when I brought you out of the land of Egypt.’” 33 And Moses said to Aaron, “Take a pot and put an omer of manna in it, and lay it up before the Lord, to be kept for your generations.” 34 As the Lord commanded Moses, so Aaron laid it up before the Testimony, to be kept.

Aaron’s Rod

Numbers 17: 1-4

17 And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying: 2 “Speak to the children of Israel, and get from them a rod from each father’s house, all their leaders according to their fathers’ houses—twelve rods. Write each man’s name on his rod. 3 And you shall write Aaron’s name on the rod of Levi. For there shall be one rod for the head of each father’s house. 4 Then you shall place them in the tabernacle of meeting before the Testimony, where I meet with you.

The Golden Pot and Aaron’s Rod were never put in the ark of the Covenant. They were before the ark. Lets confirm this with one more scripture.

1 Kings 8:99 Nothing was in the ark except the two tablets of stone which Moses put there at Horeb,
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
Hebrews 9:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and goats (first error), with water, scarlet wool, and hyssop (second error), and sprinkled both the book itself ( third error) and all the people, 20 saying, “This is the blood of the covenant which God has commanded you ________????.” (fourth error) 21 Then likewise he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry. 22 And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.

This is where we begin to see the blatant ignorance of the author of Hebrews. This is not in the Torah!! The author is confusing two completely different passages from the Torah and trying to sandwich them together. Lets identify the errors one by one. Then we can go back and check to see what was actually written in Exodus.

First error- “Calves and goats” - Goats were not used in this sacrifice. YHVH selected only oxen.

Second error- The blood was only sprinkled on the people, not the book.

Third error- There was no mention of “water, scarlet wool, hyssop” at all in this passage. He is confusing this story with Leviticus 14, which was used for the cleansing of a leper.

Fourth error- Once again, the author of Hebrews conveniently cuts off a verse in mid sentence. There seems to be a repeated theme of this author cutting off verses right before they mention the Torah. Interesting.

Here is the actual reading from the Torah.



Exodus 24:5 Then he sent young men of the children of Israel, who offered burnt offerings and sacrificed peace offerings of oxen to the Lord. 6 And Moses took half the blood and put it in basins, and half the blood he sprinkled on the altar. 7 Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read in the hearing of the people. And they said, “All that the Lord has said we will do, and be obedient.” 8 And Moses took the blood, sprinkled it on the people, and said, “This is the blood of the covenant which the Lord has made with you according to all these words.
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
I don't doubt that you disagree; the primary focus of many messianic groups is to convert Jews to their brand of Christianity, and they typically do so by trying to say that it doesn't violate Torah for a Jew to so. Your posts here and the website you link to seem to share that focus. Unfortunately, the author of the article seems to have gotten a hold of some very bad information regarding how Jews view Jesus, and ran with no holds barred. Our rejection of Christianity has just as much to do with Jesus' teachings as it does with Paul's.

Jesus was just one of a number of people who claimed to be the messiah and failed. To hold him as anything other than a man is idolatry, and to put him between man and God is heresy.

You don't understand my beliefs at all. I don't believe in ANY exclusive salvation doctrines attached to Yeshua from Paul. No, I don't need to convert you or any other Jew to my position on Yeshua. Can you please share with me one place where Yeshua goes against the Torah? By the way, I am a Jew.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
To the moderators.... I HATE THIS NEW FORUM!!!!


Just had to get that off my chest. :confused:
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Simplelogic... i cant reply to your post #31 because you've answered questions in my quote. So when i hit the reply button, im only able to reply to what you've typed outside the quote box.

So if you could reply again but dont put your answer inside the quote box, that would be great.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Hebrews 9 Then indeed, even the first covenant had ordinances of divine service and the earthly sanctuary. 2 For a tabernacle was prepared: the first part, in which was the lampstand, the table, and the showbread, which is called the sanctuary; 3 and behind the second veil, the part of the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of All, 4 which had the golden censer and the ark of the covenant overlaid on all sides with gold, in which were the golden pot that had the manna, Aaron’s rod that budded, and the tablets of the covenant; 5 and above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat. Of these things we cannot now speak in detail.

This is where the writer of Hebrews tries to impress the readers with his knowledge of the Temple artifacts. The only problem is that he is wrong. The golden pot and Aaron’s rod were never placed in the ark at all!

The Golden Pot

Ex 16:32-34:

32 Then Moses said, “This is the thing which the Lord has commanded: ‘Fill an omer with it, to be kept for your generations, that they may see the bread with which I fed you in the wilderness, when I brought you out of the land of Egypt.’” 33 And Moses said to Aaron, “Take a pot and put an omer of manna in it, and lay it up before the Lord, to be kept for your generations.” 34 As the Lord commanded Moses, so Aaron laid it up before the Testimony, to be kept.


If the jar was being placed outside of the Ark, wouldn't it make more sense to say 'put it before the 'ark'?

Yet it says to put it before the 'testimony' which was inside the Ark. So do you think its highly possible that putting it before the 'testimony' required that it be put inside the container which held the testimony?

Aaron’s Rod

Numbers 17: 1-4

17 And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying: 2 “Speak to the children of Israel, and get from them a rod from each father’s house, all their leaders according to their fathers’ houses—twelve rods. Write each man’s name on his rod. 3 And you shall write Aaron’s name on the rod of Levi. For there shall be one rod for the head of each father’s house. 4 Then you shall place them in the tabernacle of meeting before the Testimony, where I meet with you.

The Golden Pot and Aaron’s Rod were never put in the ark of the Covenant. They were before the ark. Lets confirm this with one more scripture.

1 Kings 8:99 Nothing was in the ark except the two tablets of stone which Moses put there at Horeb,

Keep reading in numbers and we see that Aarons Rod was put into the ark:
Numbers 17: 10 Jehovah then said to Moses: “Put Aaron’s rod back before the Testimony as something to be kept for a sign to the sons of rebelliousness, so that their murmurings against me may cease and so that they may not die.” 11 Moses immediately did just as Jehovah had commanded him. He did just so.
I would say that its quite possible that putting the item 'before the testimony' required that it went into the ark where the testimony was stored. Otherwise it would surely have been written as 'put it before the Ark'
 

Adstar

Active Member
Taken from (www.Jesuswordsonly.com)

-Paul is a problem for Jews from following Jesus.
-Paul is a problem for Atheists from following Jesus.
-Paul is a problem for Muslims from following Jesus.
-Paul is a problem for Deists like Jefferson from following Jesus.
-Paul is a problem for Christians from following Jesus.


When there are so many people who would take Jesus' claims more seriously BUT FOR THE PRESENCE OF PAUL in canon/doctrine, is not this a good reason to critically examine why so many who profess Christ insist on Paul's doctrines being held onto despite the encumbrance they represent on Jesus' messsage?
If you are interested to see how everyone but Pauline Christians recognize Paul is blocking the world from accepting Jesus with His full authority, please read this PDF file entitled the Problem of Paul.

I highly recommend the link below which will make the case for how Paul's letters are a problem to each of these faiths/beliefs.

http://jesuswordsonly.com/images/stories/Lessons/The Problem of Paul.pdf

Most people reject the Message of the Gospel. This is a problem people have with the message. Jesus said the way is narrow and few find it. So Christianity will only ever be a minority faith in a world where everyone wants to earn their own pass mark with God and receive the blessings of God as a payment for their achievements in religiosity..

Paul is excellant in explaining the deeper truths of the Gospel and it's Amazing grace..
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
Simplelogic... i cant reply to your post #31 because you've answered questions in my quote. So when i hit the reply button, im only able to reply to what you've typed outside the quote box.

So if you could reply again but dont put your answer inside the quote box, that would be great.
Sorry about that Pegg. Still getting use to this.
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member

If the jar was being placed outside of the Ark, wouldn't it make more sense to say 'put it before the 'ark'?

Yet it says to put it before the 'testimony' which was inside the Ark. So do you think its highly possible that putting it before the 'testimony' required that it be put inside the container which held the testimony?



Keep reading in numbers and we see that Aarons Rod was put into the ark:
Numbers 17: 10 Jehovah then said to Moses: “Put Aaron’s rod back before the Testimony as something to be kept for a sign to the sons of rebelliousness, so that their murmurings against me may cease and so that they may not die.” 11 Moses immediately did just as Jehovah had commanded him. He did just so.
I would say that its quite possible that putting the item 'before the testimony' required that it went into the ark where the testimony was stored. Otherwise it would surely have been written as 'put it before the Ark'

1 Kings 8:99 Nothing was in the ark except the two tablets of stone which Moses put there at Horeb,
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
Most people reject the Message of the Gospel. This is a problem people have with the message. Jesus said the way is narrow and few find it. So Christianity will only ever be a minority faith in a world where everyone wants to earn their own pass mark with God and receive the blessings of God as a payment for their achievements in religiosity..

Paul is excellant in explaining the deeper truths of the Gospel and it's Amazing grace..

How so? Paul never quotes Yeshua or his parables. What part of Paul's letters helps you understand deeper truths?
 
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