The Problem of Paul for All Faiths/Outlooks

[Rhiamom]

I am not a "messianic".

May I quote you in your apology thread?

"-I do believe that Yeshua was Israel's suffering servant and I personally believe he will return as the promised Messiah. (I do not hold to any exclusive salvation doctrine concerning Yeshua's divinity. "

 

[dantech]

This again...
Everyone who "isn't Christian, but believes in Jesus as the messiah" claim he was a pretty standard Jew, preaching Jewish teachings... If that's the case, what's so special about him? What makes him any different from the other, very numerous, preachers of that time?

 

[Simplelogic]

May I quote you in your apology thread?

"-I do believe that Yeshua was Israel's suffering servant and I personally believe he will return as the promised Messiah. (I do not hold to any exclusive salvation doctrine concerning Yeshua's divinity. "

May I inform you on what Messianic Judaism is?

It is a combination of Rabbinic Judaism mixed with Pauline Christianity (original sin, faith alone, predestination..etc)…so no, I am not a "messianic Jew". I am a Jew who keeps the written Torah (not the Rabbinic oral torah). I also believe Yeshua was the suffering servant and will fulfill the role as messiah.

 

[Simplelogic]

I could care less what the different sects of Judaism think about my beliefs. Personal beliefs about "the messiah" should have NOTHING to do with ones Jewishness. It should be based on the commandments of God and nothing else.

 

[Rhiamom]

May I inform you on what Messianic Judaism is?

It is a combination of Rabbinic Judaism mixed with Pauline Christianity (original sin, faith alone, predestination..etc)…so no, I am not a "messianic Jew". I am a Jew who keeps the written Torah (not the Rabbinic oral torah). I also believe Yeshua was the suffering servant and will fulfill the role as messiah.

And where was your conversion from Evangelical Christianity to Judaism performed, under the auspices of a graduate from what rabbinic school? Because no conversion means you are not Jewish, unless you can prove a Jewish maternal line. And you are indeed a Messianic, as you believe Jesus is the Messiah. You cannot both be Jewish and hold Jesus as Messiah. They are contradictory. Either give up Jesus and convert to Judaism, or admit you are not Jewish.

 

[Simplelogic]

And where was your conversion from Evangelical Christianity to Judaism performed, under the auspices of a graduate from what rabbinic school? Because no conversion means you are not Jewish, unless you can prove a Jewish maternal line. And you are indeed a Messianic, as you believe Jesus is the Messiah. You cannot both be Jewish and hold Jesus as Messiah. They are contradictory. Either give up Jesus and convert to Judaism, or admit you are not Jewish.

Actually I am Jewish by blood so I won't be admitting anything.
My parents raised me as a Christian because our ancestors were force converted to Catholicism in Spain. You speak as though you have some authority to tell me I must give up Yeshua to convert to Judaism. Trust me…you don't. I will let the Torah judge me…not you.

I am fully convinced that Yeshua was the suffering servant from the line of both Judah and Levi. For me to reject this now would be a rejection of the Torah in my eyes. It tells us clearly that when the prophet comes we must listen to him:

18I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee; and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto My words which he shall speak in My name, I will require it of him. Deut 18:18-19

 

[Desert Snake]

So, all the Christians are wrong about Jesus. O.k.

 

[Rhiamom]

Actually I am Jewish by blood so I won't be admitting anything.
My parents raised me as a Christian because our ancestors were force converted to Catholicism in Spain. You speak as though you have some authority to tell me I must give up Yeshua to convert to Judaism. Trust me…you don't. I will let the Torah judge me…not you.

I am fully convinced that Yeshua was the suffering servant from the line of both Judah and Levi. For me to reject this now would be a rejection of the Torah in my eyes. It tells us clearly that when the prophet comes we must listen to him:

18I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee; and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto My words which he shall speak in My name, I will require it of him. Deut 18:18-19

And have you brought your proof of this Sephardic ancestry to a rabbi and got your certificate of return? My proof was not strong enough, even with the rabbi saying it was one of the better cases he had seen, so I bothered to go through formal conversion. You have not, so stop claiming to be Jewish and claim instead to have possible Jewish ancestry. You have not proved your ancestry as a Jew, nor do you practice any accepted version of Judaism, but a mix of Christianity and Judaism.

 

[Rhiamom]

SimpleLogic, let me put it this way. If you met a man who believed Joseph Smith was a prophet, and who used the Book of Mormon as scripture, would you call him a Mormon? And if he claimed to be not Mormon but Catholic, because his great-grandparents were Catholic, would you consider him to be Catholic? Even if he observed Lent and never ate meat on Friday, but also never darkened the door of a Catholic church for Mass? This is identical to your claim to be Jewish.

 

[pearl]

This again...
Everyone who "isn't Christian, but believes in Jesus as the messiah" claim he was a pretty standard Jew, preaching Jewish teachings... If that's the case, what's so special about him? What makes him any different from the other, very numerous, preachers of that time?

In short, Himself.
In his book, 'A Rabbi Talks with Jesus', Jacob Neusner places himself among Jesus' listeners. In his interior dialogue Neusner has just spent the whole day following Jesus, and now he retires for prayer and Torah study with the Jews of a certain town, in order to discuss with the local rabbi all that he has heard. The rabbi cites from the Babylonian Talmud, "Six hundred and thirteen commandments were given to Moses, three hundred and sixty five negative ones, corresponding to the number of the days of the solar year, and two hundred forty eight positive commandments, corresponding to the parts of man's body.
"David came and reduced them to eleven
Isaiah came and reduced them to six
Habakkuk further came and based them on one, as it is said; "But the righteous shall live by his faith."
Continuing the dialogue, "So, the master says, 'is this what the sage, Jesus had to say?
"I; Not exactly, but close.'
"He; 'What did he leave out?'
"I; Nothing.'
"He; 'Then what did he add?'
"I; Himself' "
Neusner cites Jesus' words to the rich young man to clarify his point. "If you would be perfect, go, sell all you have and follow me". Perfection, the state of being holy as God is holy, as demanded by the Torah, now consists in following Jesus. The torah of the Messiah.
Jesus is lord of the Sabbath, and his community of disciples , the new Israel.

 

[Simplelogic]

And have you brought your proof of this Sephardic ancestry to a rabbi and got your certificate of return? My proof was not strong enough, even with the rabbi saying it was one of the better cases he had seen, so I bothered to go through formal conversion. You have not, so stop claiming to be Jewish and claim instead to have possible Jewish ancestry. You have not proved your ancestry as a Jew, nor do you practice any accepted version of Judaism, but a mix of Christianity and Judaism.

So your saying that my Jewishness is dependent on some Rabbinic rubber stamp? I think not. I have all of the proof of my family that I need. Nor do I need to prove it to you or anyone else. You can continue to label my beliefs all you want. All I practice is Torah. Yeshua was the reason I even began to study Torah. He took the greatest stand against man made corruption of YHVH's commandments. He was willing to expose the hypocrisy of the false oral commandments which were being used by "Rabbi's" to establish their false authority structures. Yeshua wasn't condemned because he "claimed to be God" at all. He was set up by the Pharisees because he exposed their religion. When tried in front of the Sanhedrin, he quoted one of the Psalms of King David and actually uttered the name Yehovah. This was his ultimate "blasphemy" that caused the high priest to rend his robes. Christian's and Jews have done a good job at distorting the man Yeshua and everything he stood for. Yeshua was willing to die to expose man's false religious systems, and so am I.

 

[Simplelogic]

SimpleLogic, let me put it this way. If you met a man who believed Joseph Smith was a prophet, and who used the Book of Mormon as scripture, would you call him a Mormon? And if he claimed to be not Mormon but Catholic, because his great-grandparents were Catholic, would you consider him to be Catholic? Even if he observed Lent and never ate meat on Friday, but also never darkened the door of a Catholic church for Mass? This is identical to your claim to be Jewish.

You stated earlier that messianic beliefs were permitted in Judaism. Many Jews still believe that Rabbi Schneerson is the messiah and they are still considered Jews. The only reason why Judaism forbids the belief in Yeshua is because of the horrible atrocities that Christians have done to Jews over the centuries. I get this. But none of these things had anything to do with Yeshua himself. Replacement theology, covenant theology, new Israel, old covenant replaced by new has NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT YESHUA TAUGHT. Only Paul is responsible for these insidious lies which have done so much damage over the centuries.

I have done a difficult thing and abandoned the beliefs that I was taught as a boy. It wasn't easy and it took some time. But eventually the amazing words of Yeshua regarding the Torah won the day. I later found out that even Yeshua prophesied that Paul would come to destroy his flock. It has been the greatest cover up of human history.

 

[Flankerl]

The only reason why Judaism forbids the belief in Yeshua is because of the horrible atrocities that Christians have done to Jews over the centuries.

Nope.
Has to do with time and the further distancing of themselves from Judaism that did this.
And just because some call him by his Jewish name and "read the Bible without Christian bias"(which isn't possible as everyone who wrote anything in their book already wrote from a Christian and Gentile POV) doesn't make him the Moshiach.
And quite frankly i don't need a Moshiach who "vanished" for 1900 years.
The Rebbe ain't gonna return and neither is this Jesus fellow.

 

[Rhiamom]

So your saying that my Jewishness is dependent on some Rabbinic rubber stamp? I think not. I have all of the proof of my family that I need. Nor do I need to prove it to you or anyone else. You can continue to label my beliefs all you want.

You are perfectly free to practice Torah all you want. But presenting yourself as Jew to others is actively lying. How VERY Torah observant of you, bearing false witness about yourself and adding the Christian New Testament to the words of which no jot or tittle might be added or removed. I don't mind a roll your own religion, as long as the person is not pretending to be a mainstream something else, as you are.

I have the same issues you do with the Talmud and the Pharisees. (Note: the Sanhedrin at the time Jesus is alleged to have lived would have been almost exclusively Sadducees) Unlike you, I value my Jewish heritage enough to accept the bad with the good, the good far outweighing the bad, and go through the halachic process to be recognized as Jewish. You have not. You are not Jewish. And your beliefs are not Jewish, either. It makes no difference that you reject Paul. Christianity is still the closest fit to you religious beliefs, not Judaism.

 

[Rhiamom]

You stated earlier that messianic beliefs were permitted in Judaism. Many Jews still believe that Rabbi Schneerson is the messiah and they are still considered Jews. The only reason why Judaism forbids the belief in Yeshua is because of the horrible atrocities that Christians have done to Jews over the centuries. I get this. But none of these things had anything to do with Yeshua himself. Replacement theology, covenant theology, new Israel, old covenant replaced by new has NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT YESHUA TAUGHT. Only Paul is responsible for these insidious lies which have done so much damage over the centuries.

I have done a difficult thing and abandoned the beliefs that I was taught as a boy. It wasn't easy and it took some time. But eventually the amazing words of Yeshua regarding the Torah won the day. I later found out that even Yeshua prophesied that Paul would come to destroy his flock. It has been the greatest cover up of human history.

When you finally realize that Jesus was Jewish; Jesus taught standard Judaic thought of the time; and Jesus had no need for a New Testament; then we might be able to talk constructively. Until then you are a a disaffected Christian masquerading as a Jewish person and inciting ire in Christians. Please stop lying about your religion and giving Jews a bad name because you call yourself one while bad-mouthing Paul.

 

[Simplelogic]

You are perfectly free to practice Torah all you want. But presenting yourself as Jew to others is actively lying. How VERY Torah observant of you, bearing false witness about yourself and adding the Christian New Testament to the words of which no jot or tittle might be added or removed. I don't mind a roll your own religion, as long as the person is not pretending to be a mainstream something else, as you are.

Ok.....here we go. I knew it wouldn't take long for the name calling to commence. You have charged me with bearing false witness, a very serious charge to make. I hope you realize the implications of this type of indictment. I also hope you realize that you have no grounds to make this charge considering you don't know me at all, or my family history.

Did I every claim to be a card carrying member of modern Judaism??? NO!

Did I claim that I was a Jew?? YES!

You may not understand this but a Jew is still a Jew regardless of his personal religious choices. Jews can be Athiest, Muslims, Hindus, and yes...even Christians! You are blurring the lines between the modern Rabbinic definition of a "practicing" Jew and a racial Jew from birth.

Lets just say that I was in need of conversion. I most certainly would NOT consult modern Rabbi's to help me define my Jewishness. Why? Because thankfully the Torah makes it abundantly clear how a Gentile is to be converted!! Rabbi's don't get to just make up the requirements my friend, and neither do you. Yes, you may have a large institution that supports your logic. So what. Modern Judaism will fall very soon, along with Christianity, Islam and every other institution which seeks to change the Torah. Bet on it.

 

[Simplelogic]

When you finally realize that Jesus was Jewish; Jesus taught standard Judaic thought of the time; and Jesus had no need for a New Testament; then we might be able to talk constructively. Until then you are a a disaffected Christian masquerading as a Jewish person and inciting ire in Christians. Please stop lying about your religion and giving Jews a bad name because you call yourself one while bad-mouthing Paul.

Ok, let me get this straight. Yeshua was Jewish according to you. Yet my believing in his words prohibits me from being a Jew?? BTW, all of his words were about REPENTANCE and returning to Torah.

Yes, there is many fake Jews running around this earth. Most of them are products of the fake Rabbinical definition of Judaism anyways. I have dedicated my life to taking the Torah to the nations, most of the time third world. I have witnessed masses of gentiles return to complete Torah observance in numerous countries. And you sit here and make baseless charges about my family history and Jewishness?? Yehovah will judge between you and I.

 

[Simplelogic]

You are perfectly free to practice Torah all you want. But presenting yourself as Jew to others is actively lying. How VERY Torah observant of you, bearing false witness about yourself and adding the Christian New Testament to the words of which no jot or tittle might be added or removed. I don't mind a roll your own religion, as long as the person is not pretending to be a mainstream something else, as you are..

What on earth are you talking about? Adding writings to the Scriptures is not the same as adding to the Torah itself. The writings which were added had to align perfectly with the Torah and not add or diminish from it. Unless you hold the false belief that the Tanakh ended with Malachi (which Rabbi's invented).

 

[Simplelogic]

And your beliefs are not Jewish, either. It makes no difference that you reject Paul. Christianity is still the closest fit to you religious beliefs, not Judaism.

Let me quote your recent comment from another thread:

"Meh. Jesus was Jewish, and never wavered from that. All of the apostles were Jewish, and believed Jesus was the Messiah in the Jewish, not Christian, sense of Messiah. There is nothing heretical about that. They all remained Jewish."

You made the excellent case for not only Yeshua's Jewishness, but the apostles as well! You even said that it was NOT heretical!! Yet you presume to accuse me of heresy when my beliefs are identical to theirs???

 

[Rhiamom]

Ok.....here we go. I knew it wouldn't take long for the name calling to commence. You have charged me with bearing false witness, a very serious charge to make. I hope you realize the implications of this type of indictment. I also hope you realize that you have no grounds to make this charge considering you don't know me at all, or my family history.

Did I every claim to be a card carrying member of modern Judaism??? NO!

Did I claim that I was a Jew?? YES!

You may not understand this but a Jew is still a Jew regardless of his personal religious choices. Jews can be Athiest, Muslims, Hindus, and yes...even Christians! You are blurring the lines between the modern Rabbinic definition of a "practicing" Jew and a racial Jew from birth.

Of course a Jew is still a Jew, even if they abandon Judaism. You, however, have never established your bona fides as a Jew, so that logic does not apply. So, you have not proved matrilineal descent, and you won't convert; you are not Jewish by any definition. And yes, you ARE bearing a false witness when you claim to be Jewish. Your religious beliefs are wholly different than what the word "Jewish" means to both Jews and non-Jews, and using Jewish to describe yourself very dishonestly misrepresents you as holding the same beliefs as Jews.