The Problem of Paul for All Faiths/Outlooks

[Rhiamom]

Let me quote your recent comment from another thread:

"Meh. Jesus was Jewish, and never wavered from that. All of the apostles were Jewish, and believed Jesus was the Messiah in the Jewish, not Christian, sense of Messiah. There is nothing heretical about that. They all remained Jewish."

You made the excellent case for not only Yeshua's Jewishness, but the apostles as well! You even said that it was NOT heretical!! Yet you presume to accuse me of heresy when my beliefs are identical to theirs???

Ah, but you believe in salvation by Jesus, and that makes all the difference. The apostles did not. Also, you believe a dead man will return as the Messiah, when a living, fully human King is what is prophesied. And that makes it unacceptable. You still base your faith on Jesus, and that is anathema to Jews.

From a Jewish point of view, you are maybe halfway there. You need to change your focus from Jesus to the Torah. After all, Jesus only taught Torah. If you really have Torah you do not need a Jesus. Only the New Testament, Christian texts, create a need for Jesus. And if you still hold NT to be holy scriptures you are as far from Jewish as you can get.

 

[Simplelogic]

Ah, but you believe in salvation by Jesus, and that makes all the difference. The apostles did not. Also, you believe a dead man will return as the Messiah, when a living, fully human King is what is prophesied. And that makes it unacceptable. You still base your faith on Jesus, and that is anathema to Jews.

From a Jewish point of view, you are maybe halfway there. You need to change your focus from Jesus to the Torah. After all, Jesus only taught Torah. If you really have Torah you do not need a Jesus. Only the New Testament, Christian texts, create a need for Jesus. And if you still hold NT to be holy scriptures you are as far from Jewish as you can get.

Well…maybe you should try asking my beliefs before you start stating what they are. I believe in Salvation via repentance ONLY, just like Yeshua and his twelve apostles.

Not that my beliefs have anything to do with my heritage.

 

[Desert Snake]

Since when is Jesus necessary to follow the Torah. I'm not even sure how you are grouping the books of the Bible.

 

[Rhiamom]

Well…maybe you should try asking my beliefs before you start stating what they are. I believe in Salvation via repentance ONLY, just like Yeshua and his twelve apostles.

Not that my beliefs have anything to do with my heritage.

Oh, sorry about the salvation statement. You just believe in a resurrected Messiah, which is counter to the prophecies.

No, your beliefs have nothing to do with your heritage. People with hidden Jewish ancestry are returning to Judaism in droves, and they are going through conversions because HaShem is calling them so strongly. The need to convert was deeply insulting to me after I had finally pieced together the truth, but I did it because I knew I was Jewish and I wanted to be free to say so. I wanted to join my tribe.

I can claim to be descended from a passenger on the Mayflower, and had a relative in the Revolutionary War, but that does not make it true. And I can claim to be descended from a French Filles du Roi and also a member of the Carignan regiment, but that does not make that true, either. I can PROVE the second statement, and that makes it true. (And makes me eligible for the Canadian equivalent of the DAR.) Your heritage, until accepted by a rabbi, is just a claim. And the common experience is that your claim will not be accepted unless you can produce your grandmother's ketubah or something equally definitive. I suspect a large part of your resistance to rabbinic authority is that you know they will utterly reject you, based on your still-Christian beliefs.

 

[Simplelogic]

Oh, sorry about the salvation statement. You just believe in a resurrected Messiah, which is counter to the prophecies.

Which prophecies are you referring to?

 

[Simplelogic]

No, your beliefs have nothing to do with your heritage. People with hidden Jewish ancestry are returning to Judaism in droves, and they are going through conversions because HaShem is calling them so strongly. The need to convert was deeply insulting to me after I had finally pieced together the truth, but I did it because I knew I was Jewish and I wanted to be free to say so. I wanted to join my tribe.

Sounds like you wanted affiliation with a bogus religious system that is contrary to the Torah. Hey, if if makes you feel more Jewish then great.

 

[Simplelogic]

[QUOTEAnd the common experience is that your claim will not be accepted unless you can produce your grandmother's ketubah or something equally definitive. [/QUOTE]

My grandmothers ketubah???? Where on earth does it say this in the Tanakh?? The line descends primarily through males according to the Torah. It may be passed through the female but this is NOT the gold standard by any means. Sounds like you have allowed men to define your Jewishness, not Torah.

 

[Rhiamom]

[QUOTEAnd the common experience is that your claim will not be accepted unless you can produce your grandmother's ketubah or something equally definitive.

My grandmothers ketubah???? Where on earth does it say this in the Tanakh?? The line descends primarily through males according to the Torah. It may be passed through the female but this is NOT the gold standard by any means. Sounds like you have allowed men to define your Jewishness, not Torah.[/QUOTE]

I am sorry that you cannot accept that it is Rabbinic Judaism we have today, and not the Biblical Judaism you would prefer. You might look into Karaite Judaism. Even your allegedly Jewish ancestors practiced Rabbinic, not Biblical, Judaism, though. The ketubah is merely an example of the sort of definitive proof needed to get a certificate of return rather than having to go through conversion. Your grandmother's brother's tefillin would probably work, too. Or Stars of David on their gravestones.

 

[dantech]

[QUOTEAnd the common experience is that your claim will not be accepted unless you can produce your grandmother's ketubah or something equally definitive.

My grandmothers ketubah???? Where on earth does it say this in the Tanakh?? The line descends primarily through males according to the Torah. It may be passed through the female but this is NOT the gold standard by any means. Sounds like you have allowed men to define your Jewishness, not Torah.

Only tribal affiliation is passed through the male in the Tanakh. There's a difference between tribal affiliation and jewishness... but hey, if you feel like you're a Jew who believes Jesus is the messiah and will return, then so be it. I feel like a Christian who is bound by the written/oral law, and who has absolutely no connection/feeling/hope towards Jesus. In fact, I don't even know if he existed. But I'm still Christian.

 

[Desert Snake]

@OP
Which books of the Bible (OT and NT) do you subscribe to.

 

[Simplelogic]

Only tribal affiliation is passed through the male in the Tanakh. There's a difference between tribal affiliation and jewishness...

What are you talking about??

 

[Flankerl]

My grandmothers ketubah???? Where on earth does it say this in the Tanakh?? The line descends primarily through males according to the Torah. It may be passed through the female but this is NOT the gold standard by any means. Sounds like you have allowed men to define your Jewishness, not Torah.

Yeah those stupid Rabbis thinking about a way to ensure that anyone who claims to be a Jew is one after all the records were destroyed in the destruction of the Temple which was probably also caused by the Rabbis.


But I get it. The Karaites are so much better. Except that they don't use the Talmud to determine how certain laws should be followed. No they got the perfect system of personal Tradition or they do how their Teacher tells them to do.

This is obviously so much better.

 

[Simplelogic]

@OP
Which books of the Bible (OT and NT) do you subscribe to.

I consider the entire Tanakh scripture as well as the words of Yeshua (4 gospels and Revelation). I don't believe in the Christian concept of "infallible scriptures" or the Jewish concept of (closed canon after Malachi). The only letters I outright reject are Paul's letters (including Hebrews).

I do believe that there are issues in OT and the Gospels when it comes to "infallibility". There are 2nd century additions in the gospels which I believe were inserted by someone after Yeshua. This is not common in my view but it is a reality. The Tanakh also has problems in it! Psalm 44 has been corrupted imho and I also believe we are missing part of the book of Job.

This link discusses these issues a little more:

What is the word of God

 

[Simplelogic]

Yeah those stupid Rabbis thinking about a way to ensure that anyone who claims to be a Jew is one after all the records were destroyed in the destruction of the Temple which was probably also caused by the Rabbis.


But I get it. The Karaites are so much better. Except that they don't use the Talmud to determine how certain laws should be followed. No they got the perfect system of personal Tradition or they do how their Teacher tells them to do.

This is obviously so much better.

Just read the Torah Flankerl. Its not as complicated as you or your Rabbi's want to make it.

 

[Simplelogic]

Just because records were destroyed does not mean that Rabbi's get to change the way the Tanakh establishes a person Jewishness.

 

[Simplelogic]

I accept the Torah. If your Rabbi's agreed with Torah then I would agree with them.

 

[dantech]

What are you talking about??

What about my post isn't clear exactly?

 

[Simplelogic]

What about my post isn't clear exactly?

The whole thing. You are trying to drive a wedge between Jewishness and tribal affiliation. BTW there was no such concept of "Jewishness" in the Tanakh. All the tribes were called Hebrews who were born of the line of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. They were a physical seed which allowed Gentiles to be grafted into them. The line passed primarily through the Father. If you need examples of this I would be glad to present them.

 

[dantech]

The whole thing. You are trying to drive a wedge between Jewishness and tribal affiliation.

I am not trying to drive a wedge, there is a wedge.

BTW there was no such concept of "Jewishness" in the Tanakh.

Incorrect. In the Torah, there was no such concept. In the Tanakh, there was indeed.

All the tribes were called Hebrews who were born of the line of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. They were a physical seed which allowed Gentiles to be grafted into them. The line passed primarily through the Father. If you need examples of this I would be glad to present them.

I know the examples you will give me. Ironically, these same examples are the ones which would disqualify Jesus as Messiah because of his ancestry. Regardless, if you look later in the Ketuvim, you will see that there is indeed such a thing as Jewishness. Look up Ezra, for example.

 

[Simplelogic]

Sometimes I wonder who is more brainwashed…the Christians or the Jews. It seems like both institutions have hidden people from what the Torah of YHVH actually says.

I am not trying to drive a wedge, there is a wedge.


Incorrect. In the Torah, there was no such concept. In the Tanakh, there was indeed.

I know the examples you will give me. Ironically, these same examples are the ones which would disqualify Jesus as Messiah because of his ancestry. Regardless, if you look later in the Ketuvim, you will see that there is indeed such a thing as Jewishness. Look up Ezra, for example.

The term Jew was given to the tribe of Judah who had consolidated with Benjamin and some of the Levites. The tribes of Ephraim (Israel) were scattered by the Assyrians so the title for Hebrew became "Jew". This doesn't meant that anything changed in terms of what constitutes a Jew/Hebrew. Ezra is not using the term Jew to denote a religious affiliation. He is talking about the physical seed of the kingdom of Judah. Which was primarily passed through the men!