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The Problems with the Term "Privilege"

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
In discourse about various political and social issues, I see the term "privilege" thrown around in different contexts, including in reference to a group that has more freedoms than another or is in an otherwise more desirable situation. In this thread, I'm going to explain why I rarely find the term more useful than alternatives, how I think its usage could be problematic or counterproductive in some cases, and, as a consequence of the previous two points, why I rarely use it myself.

Perhaps the most familiar example of the term's usage nowadays is "white privilege," in reference to perceived advantages that white people have in some countries over other ethnic or racial groups. However, I would also like to focus on an example much more familiar to me from my own lived experience, and that is the disadvantage and discrimination that non-religious people face in Saudi Arabia (among other countries) compared to members of majority religious groups.

When analyzing a given group's situation with regard to human rights, freedoms, and other social or legal facets, it seems to me that it is crucial to establish a baseline of necessary or basic rights and freedoms against which we could judge whether or not said group is disenfranchised. In contrast, saying a group is "privileged" compared to another shifts the focus from said baseline to a comparison between two groups who may both be disenfranchised, even if to different extents.

This is where my focus on specific third-world countries comes into the argument: let's say I stated that Muslims in, say, Pakistan were "privileged." This would technically be true, since atheists are heavily persecuted there. However, Pakistan has high poverty rates, low standards of living, and many political and social issues that affect most of the population, Muslim or otherwise.

What, then, does using the term "Muslim privilege" achieve in the above case? If we look at the average Pakistani Muslim, it's quite possible that they're struggling just to make ends meet and to cover their basic needs, all while dealing with an abusive political climate devoid of an acceptable baseline of freedom. They may have more religious freedoms than a Pakistani atheist, but when both they and the atheist don't meet the acceptable baseline of human rights, using the term "Muslim privilege" largely shifts the focus from this crucial and pressing fact to a comparison between two groups who are, at the end of the day, both struggling.

Mapping this to the situation with "white privilege," it is entirely possible for individuals not to be well-off or have their full rights and basic needs despite belonging to the supposedly privileged group. The term "privilege" is sometimes largely hinged on comparison to other groups, not on reference to a specific baseline of human rights and freedoms. If a group is noticeably above the baseline and, for example, enjoys exemption from laws that apply to other groups, then this becomes a problem where the term "privilege" may be useful and accurate to describe the situation.

On the other hand, if we compare a Saudi or Pakistani Muslim in poverty to a poor or middle-class atheist from the same country, things get much more complicated because, as I highlighted above, both individuals would be below the baseline. Consequently, eliminating the "privilege" of either wouldn't solve the core issue, which is the fact that neither of them enjoys the bare minimum level of human rights and freedoms that any humane society should aim to provide to its citizens.

When the focus of discourse around a social or political lack of rights turns into a comparison between different groups rather than the fact that many individuals within both groups may both lack their basic rights, it seems to me that a situation arises where the discourse may lose the plot and turn into a pursuit of bringing down those who are doing well rather than improving the situation of those who are not.

Unethical or illegal privileges are a different issue, as I touched on earlier, but those cover only a subset of the situations in which I see the term "privilege" being used. In many other situations, I think the term "privilege" is much better replaced by language and arguments that zoom in on the disenfranchised and the factors that lead to their not having a baseline of human rights, freedom, and economic stability.

For these reasons, I rarely use the term myself. After all, it has never helped anyone for someone else to be struggling to an equal extent; the ideal situation is when nobody is struggling at all. So, if I ever went back to live in Saudi Arabia, I wouldn't want to have "Muslim privilege"; I would want a baseline of human rights and freedoms—and most Muslims in Saudi Arabia don't have those either when we look at an area like politics.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
In discourse about various political and social issues, I see the term "privilege" thrown around in different contexts, including in reference to a group that has more freedoms than another or is in an otherwise more desirable situation. In this thread, I'm going to explain why I rarely find the term more useful than alternatives, how I think its usage could be problematic or counterproductive in some cases, and, as a consequence of the previous two points, why I rarely use it myself.

Perhaps the most familiar example of the term's usage nowadays is "white privilege," in reference to perceived advantages that white people have in some countries over other ethnic or racial groups. However, I would also like to focus on an example much more familiar to me from my own lived experience, and that is the disadvantage and discrimination that non-religious people face in Saudi Arabia (among other countries) compared to members of majority religious groups.

When analyzing a given group's situation with regard to human rights, freedoms, and other social or legal facets, it seems to me that it is crucial to establish a baseline of necessary or basic rights and freedoms against which we could judge whether or not said group is disenfranchised. In contrast, saying a group is "privileged" compared to another shifts the focus from said baseline to a comparison between two groups who may both be disenfranchised, even if to different extents.

This is where my focus on specific third-world countries comes into the argument: let's say I stated that Muslims in, say, Pakistan were "privileged." This would technically be true, since atheists are heavily persecuted there. However, Pakistan has high poverty rates, low standards of living, and many political and social issues that affect most of the population, Muslim or otherwise.

What, then, does using the term "Muslim privilege" achieve in the above case? If we look at the average Pakistani Muslim, it's quite possible that they're struggling just to make ends meet and to cover their basic needs, all while dealing with an abusive political climate devoid of an acceptable baseline of freedom. They may have more religious freedoms than a Pakistani atheist, but when both they and the atheist don't meet the acceptable baseline of human rights, using the term "Muslim privilege" largely shifts the focus from this crucial and pressing fact to a comparison between two groups who are, at the end of the day, both struggling.

Mapping this to the situation with "white privilege," it is entirely possible for individuals not to be well-off or have their full rights and basic needs despite belonging to the supposedly privileged group. The term "privilege" is sometimes largely hinged on comparison to other groups, not on reference to a specific baseline of human rights and freedoms. If a group is noticeably above the baseline and, for example, enjoys exemption from laws that apply to other groups, then this becomes a problem where the term "privilege" may be useful and accurate to describe the situation.

On the other hand, if we compare a Saudi or Pakistani Muslim in poverty to a poor or middle-class atheist from the same country, things get much more complicated because, as I highlighted above, both individuals would be below the baseline. Consequently, eliminating the "privilege" of either wouldn't solve the core issue, which is the fact that neither of them enjoys the bare minimum level of human rights and freedoms that any humane society should aim to provide to its citizens.

When the focus of discourse around a social or political lack of rights turns into a comparison between different groups rather than the fact that many individuals within both groups may both lack their basic rights, it seems to me that a situation arises where the discourse may lose the plot and turn into a pursuit of bringing down those who are doing well rather than improving the situation of those who are not.

Unethical or illegal privileges are a different issue, as I touched on earlier, but those cover only a subset of the situations in which I see the term "privilege" being used. In many other situations, I think the term "privilege" is much better replaced by language and arguments that zoom in on the disenfranchised and the factors that lead to their not having a baseline of human rights, freedom, and economic stability.

For these reasons, I rarely use the term myself. After all, it has never helped anyone for someone else to be struggling to an equal extent; the ideal situation is when nobody is struggling at all. So, if I ever went back to live in Saudi Arabia, I wouldn't want to have "Muslim privilege"; I would want a baseline of human rights and freedoms—and most Muslims in Saudi Arabia don't have those either when we look at an area like politics.

I have always felt it is, at least in part, a political correctness issue. The thing is: Most of the things called a 'privilege' are just the standard in a given society. On the other hand, a lot of people are born with what I call a 'social disavantage', meaning they are treated worse than the standard way. But calling people 'disavantaged' is not empowering, it is quite the opposite and it often makes people not under this situation feel it is a 'them' problem, rather than 'our' problem.

The 'privilege' term though does make ordinary people feel a different way, but rather than actually making people get engaged, the gut instinct is to reject the label and to refuse to even engage in the conversation, simply because they don't feel the label is proper. Being told you are privileged when you struggle to make your ends meet certainly won't ressonate with most people.
 

Kooky

Freedom from Sanity
The term "privilege" comes from the simple fact that a lot of people really cannot comprehend, on a fundamental emotional level, the experience of being oppressed or discriminated against, when they have never been subjected to such experiences themselves. The lack of experience of being oppressed or discriminated, in this sense, is a kind of privilege that some people enjoy.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
The term "privilege" comes from the simple fact that a lot of people really cannot comprehend, on a fundamental emotional level, the experience of being oppressed or discriminated against, when they have never been subjected to such experiences themselves. The lack of experience of being oppressed or discriminated, in this sense, is a kind of privilege that some people enjoy.

That's my point: ideally, nobody should experience oppression or discrimination in society, so calling that a "privilege" seems to frame it as an anomaly or special case rather than the default state of affairs in any country that respects its citizens' rights.

If we apply the same logic to a multitude of other issues, we can arguably call not experiencing poverty a "privilege," but how much does that really tell us about how to solve the problem of poverty or how to address it?

If a country's baseline for human rights is so lacking that not experiencing poverty becomes a privilege, then I think there are probably far more crucial issues to focus on than whether someone has the "privilege" of not being poor—and more useful ways of talking about the issue such that the focus is on the disenfranchised groups and the issues they face rather than on those who aren't poor but may still be struggling in other ways.
 
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icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
The term "privilege" comes from the simple fact that a lot of people really cannot comprehend, on a fundamental emotional level, the experience of being oppressed or discriminated against, when they have never been subjected to such experiences themselves. The lack of experience of being oppressed or discriminated, in this sense, is a kind of privilege that some people enjoy.

interesting op.

I find the oppressed / oppressor worldview to be full of problems. The first is that oppressed and oppressor are far from on/off, binary states. They exist on at least one continuum. For example, I would say that a poor, white, single mom, living in a chronically depressed mining town in - say - Kentucky, isn't really an "oppressor" of her fellows.

I saw a great sign today: "They got you fighting a culture war, to stop you fighting a class war."

Now, if we were to say that most of us are oppressed (to varying degrees), by oligarchs, then I think we'd be largely in agreement.
 

Kooky

Freedom from Sanity
That's my point: ideally, nobody should experience oppression or discrimination in society, so calling that a "privilege" seems to frame it as an anomaly or special case rather than the default state of affairs in any country that respects its citizens' rights.

If we apply the same logic to a multitude of other issues, we can arguably call not experiencing poverty a "privilege," but how much does that really tell us about how to solve the problem of poverty or how to address it?
I feel like you misunderstand what the term "privilege" is for. It is not a rallying cry or an instrument of propaganda, it is a term whose utility is to explain why people are seemingly unable to recognize discrimination or oppression, or even hostile to that idea, even when it is being spelled out to them in clear and certain terms.

The alternative would be to simply write off all the people who "don't see race" or don't understand that discrimination exists as willfully blind or actively supportive of these phenomena. Would you consider that an improvement?

If a country's baseline for human rights is so lacking that not experiencing poverty becomes a privilege, then I think there are probably far more crucial issues to focus on than whether someone has the "privilege" of not being poor—and more useful ways of talking about the issue such that the focus is on the disenfranchised groups and the issues they face rather than on those who aren't poor but may still be struggling in other ways.
In my experience, most people are even less inclined to talk about the dismantling of the capitalist system than they are to talk about trying to make that system a little less racist.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
I feel like you misunderstand what the term "privilege" is for. It is not a rallying cry or an instrument of propaganda, it is a term whose utility is to explain why people are seemingly unable to recognize discrimination or oppression, or even hostile to that idea, even when it is being spelled out to them in clear and certain terms.

The alternative would be to simply write off all the people who "don't see race" or don't understand that discrimination exists as willfully blind or actively supportive of these phenomena. Would you consider that an improvement?

I think that depends on two things:

1) which circumstances one describes as "privileged," and

2) who is being described as "privileged."

I haven't mentioned anything about a rallying cry or an instrument of propaganda in this thread; my point is simply that in many cases where the term "privileged" comes up in public discourse, there are either more accurate or more useful terms to describe the issues in question.

In my experience, most people are even less inclined to talk about the dismantling of the capitalist system than they are to talk about trying to make that system a little less racist.

Dismantling capitalism isn't the answer to every problem where there's a disparity in freedoms and human rights. It could address some, but things get much more complicated when we're talking about an individual level or about, say, problematic traditions and beliefs and not just economic inequities.
 

Kooky

Freedom from Sanity
Dismantling capitalism isn't the answer to every problem where there's a disparity in freedoms and human rights. It could address some, but things get much more complicated when we're talking about an individual level or about, say, problematic traditions and beliefs and not just economic inequities.
If we are going to talk about ending all poverty and oppression, then I don't see how that's even possible without making some radical, fundamental and, arguably, extreme changes to the economic and social system we are currently living in.

(I'm assuming here that you've put enough thought into this to realize that it is not caused by a few bad people.)
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
If we are going to talk about ending all poverty and oppression, then I don't see how that's even possible without making some extreme, radical and fundamental changes to the economic and social system we are currently living in.

I mostly agree. I just don't think framing certain issues in terms of "privilege" by comparing people who may all be disenfranchised in different ways is the best way to discuss said issues.

I assume you've put enough thought into the issue so far to know that it is not caused by a few bad people.

No, I don't think it's caused by a few bad people or even just bad people in general. Being misinformed or unreasonable can lead to support for a harmful status quo even if one is well-intentioned.

I heavily lean socialist, so I feel like you may be preaching to the choir in some ways here.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
fwiw, I don't think we ought to "dismantle capitalism". but we sure do need to put some checks and balances back in.
 

VoidCat

Use any and all pronouns including neo and it/it's
Can you give examples of better terms? I can't think of any or any particular circumstance for that matter off hand brain fart tho I'm trying to.

Not disagreeing with the OP just trying to think of a better term.
 

Kooky

Freedom from Sanity
I mostly agree. I just don't think framing certain issues in terms of "privilege" by comparing people who may all be disenfranchised in different ways is the best way to discuss said issues.
Here is my take on the term, which I hope you find illuminating.

In my line of work of teaching my language to migrants and refugees, I talk to a lot of people who have experienced persecution, war, discrimination or poverty. I have experienced none of these to a degree that I could reasonably assume a common ground when talking with them about their experiences. I have never experienced my country descending into civil war, or overrun by religious fanatics, or in the grasp of a brutal police state.

There is a fundamental divide between us, a fundamental gulf in our understanding of the world that cannot be bridged, and this gulf is caused by my lack of having these experiences. In this sense, when I talk to these people, I am talking from a position of privilege - the privilege of never having had to flee from my own country due to terrible circumstances beyond my control.

This doesn't mean that their position should be taken as "normal" or as some kind of indiction towards the state of the world we live in, but it is factually accurate that in this context, compared to these people, I am enjoying a state of fortune that I have neither earned nor deserved.
 
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Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
For these reasons, I rarely use the term myself. After all, it has never helped anyone for someone else to be struggling to an equal extent; the ideal situation is when nobody is struggling at all. So, if I ever went back to live in Saudi Arabia, I wouldn't want to have "Muslim privilege"; I would want a baseline of human rights and freedoms—and most Muslims in Saudi Arabia don't have those either when we look at an area like politics.

I also avoid using such terms as well. Part of the problem is that there seems to be a desire on the part of some to try to sum things up with a catchy phrase or slogan, which typically requires a long explanation as to what it actually means. What ends up happening is that people get so stuck on the meaning and the slogan itself that the actual ideas and issues they're trying to address end up getting lost.
 
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